Codex Arms Race continues

[Panzer]

Yeah but Plasma are also extremely good against basically any other target while Bolter aren't. You won't be facing a horde of Ork Boyz every single game.

[Beams]

Yeah but Plasma are also extremely good against basically any other target while Bolter aren't. You won't be facing a horde of Ork Boyz every single game.

You also aren't fighting knights every game, but if you don't come prepared to fight one, you get stomped.

[Panzer]

You don't fight Knights every time, but you pretty much always fight something with vehicles or monsters you'd want to blast off the board asap.

 

IF Orks prove to be some form of gatekeeper that prevents people from reaching top placements in tournaments like Daemon Primarchs do, then people will add anti green tide means to their lists. However that is yet to be seen.

[Beams]

You don't fight Knights every time, but you pretty much always fight something with vehicles or monsters you'd want to blast off the board asap.

 

IF Orks prove to be some form of gatekeeper that prevents people from reaching top placements in tournaments like Daemon Primarchs do, then people will add anti green tide means to their lists. However that is yet to be seen.

I've seen people complain that they can't kill 32 Guardsmn. I'd very much expect to see Green Tide getting a comeback - Goff Skarboys are going to be a very effective list, until the meta shifts significantly.

[NatBrannigan]

As long as people leave my damn Infantry Squads alone in future chapter approved's I'll be happy! They'll end up costing as much as Space Marines at some point...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They should be around 6-7 points/model.

[sairence]

Lol, sure. A T3 1w model with a S3 attack and a 5+ save.

 

I'm a for fixing cp-batteries, but that can only happen if the underlying problem is sorted. Which is done by fixing the way allied detachments provide bonuses.

 

Raising the points of Guardsmen to that level will only encourage people to then bring AdMech detachment for their CPs while making infantry lists very hard to play for pure Guard-players.

[Panzer]

They are fine at 4ppm. T'au Firewarrior have a better weapon and Sv4+ and cost 7ppm. Skitarii Ranger too. It's Marines and some others like Kroot who are too expensive.

Maybe an increase to 5ppm for Guardsmen would be good but their points really shouldn't get increased any further than that.

 

EDIT: typo

[Closet Skeleton]

I've never beaten a guard tournament army, doesn't matter how optimized they are. Even armies that go on to do terribly against actually competitive armies flatten whatever elite force I bring. A bad guard list will destroy even the most optimized marine list. Killing 50 marines a turn is nothing for a guard list. Alaitoc Eldar with their to hit penalties or Prophets of the Flesh invulnerable saves can counter them but small elite armies have no chance.

 

Its the fact that everything Guard is too cheap compared to marines that makes that 4pmm so ridiculous. Guard flamers are literally the same accuracy as marine ones but are still 2 points cheaper. Having to pay extra for BS 3+ weapons despite having a massive tax on your stats is what makes tactical marines hard to run. Having 15 and 30 point support characters when Space marines are paying 60-80 for less flexible bonuses just lead to guard being able to field far better balanced armies at every point scale. A Battle Company is theoretically only 1300 points right? 13 ppm isn't actually any barrier to being able to field hordes of power armour, its the pricing of the entire book that actually matters, I've outnumbered guard armies with marines and I still got shot off the board.

 

Astra militarum, Dark Eldar and Knights aren't better than marines because a few units are under or over-priced, they're better because marines have to make difficult choices in list building that higher tier codexes just don't. If a marine player wants long range artillery and fast moving assault units he has to compromise on some other core area of the game while Eldar just take everything, guard don't need to care about assaulting and knights just fulfill every role except board control by themselves.

 

5ppm guard and 4ppm conscripts would still be fair. When quantity has a quality of its own it should be priced for that quality.

 

Though to counter-act the codex creep argument, Necrons have a more recent and better codex than marines do but arguably have the marine's army composition issues to an even greater degree. Their units and stratagems might look a bit power creepy in isolation but their high costs make their armies one dimensional and incredibly non-competitive.

[Panzer]

Yeah because Marines (vehicles included) are overcosted and don't have much in form of Stratagems etc. going for them except for some few like MW spam with Devastators. We know that already. Doesn't mean Guardsmen need a points increase. Don't nerf everything to Marine level. Buff Marines to the level everything else has. ;)

[Beams]

Yeah because Marines (vehicles included) are overcosted and don't have much in form of Stratagems etc. going for them except for some few like MW spam with Devastators. We know that already. Doesn't mean Guardsmen need a points increase. Don't nerf everything to Marine level. Buff Marines to the level everything else has. ;)

Even GW knows this; it's why Marines are getting a second look.

[NatBrannigan]

7 points for a Guardsman....?

 

Not sure what to say there really... If they go up to 5 then fine, but come on now.

 

Guard are in a good place, well balanced not the strongest or weakest. Just leave them be. Make Marines better for sure and also stop people using Guard Infantry to gain CP's for their own (better?) armies.

[Marshal_von_Speer]

Yeah because Marines (vehicles included) are overcosted and don't have much in form of Stratagems etc. going for them except for some few like MW spam with Devastators. We know that already. Doesn't mean Guardsmen need a points increase. Don't nerf everything to Marine level. Buff Marines to the level everything else has.

 

I agree. I'd suggest to adjust Space Marine pts cost first, before adressing guardsmen. It 'll be much easier to handle chaff once HBs and ACs are reasonably priced.

 

After all, the main issue with guard are the loyal 32, but that's due to the way allies work.

 

Unfortunately in the recent past, GW has chosen to adress the symptoms rather than the core problems .

[Closet Skeleton]

Just because marines need buffing and there are other powerful armies doesn't mean guard squads and their access to orders aren't under priced. Upping company commanders to 50 points, platoon commanders to 25 and guardsmen to 7 would be massive overkill but a little adjustment upwards wouldn't break the game balance and if they're still competitive while costing more then they're by definition undercosted.

 

stop people using Guard Infantry to gain CP's for their own (better?) armies.

 

There's no need to ruin the fun of players who like making soupy armies, it just needs to not be so cheap you don't give up anything for it.

 

Knights without extra CP aren't that good.

 

 

 

much easier to handle chaff once HBs and ACs are reasonably priced.

 

After all, the main issue with guard are the loyal 32, but that's due to the way allies work.

 

 

Loyal 32 aren't 'the issue with guard' outside of certain stratagem heavy builds. Last tournament I flattened a dark angels army with no marine troops and a guard battalion but my worst loss was against a balanced guard list who pretty much wiped out my entire tyranid army with just three Cadian basilisks. Balanced Dark Eldar armies were much less of a problem.

[Beams]

Guard Infantry Squads will most likely go to 5, leaving conscripts at 4 and Vets at 6. If guard goes to 6, they won't ever be used -- no ones used vets in 8th at 6 and they have bs 3+ and better access to special/heavy.

[Closet Skeleton]

Guard Infantry Squads will most likely go to 5, leaving conscripts at 4 and Vets at 6. If guard goes to 6, they won't ever be used -- no ones used vets in 8th at 6 and they have bs 3+ and better access to special/heavy.

 Vets aren't used at 6 because you can get guardsmen at 4 and Scions at 9-10. Not to mention that you have old grudges and overlapping field of fire if you want one unit surgically removed.

 

Up guardsmen to 5ppm and drop chimeras by 10ppm and you might start seeing vets in astra militarum armies.

[Finkmilkana]

Vets aren't used at 6 because you can get guardsmen at 4 and Scions at 9-10.

 

....

 

Up guardsmen to 5ppm and drop chimeras by 10ppm and you might start seeing vets in astra militarum armies.

Vets aren’t used because they lost their 4+, but also, more importantly, because they aren’t troops. Changing the price of guardsmen won’t change anything for vets because vets do not compete for the same slot in the foc. A guard player literally cannot replace his guardsmen with vets, even if guardsmen would cost something obscene like 10ppm.

[kombatwombat]

Guard are in a good place, well balanced not the strongest or weakest.

Are they though? I think they’re still the strongest Codex. Not the strongest army, mind you, as no Pure army can compete on even terms with a Soup army under the current rules, but if you look at books in isolation it’s still the strongest Codex. Dark Eldar run it close, and Knights, Eldar and Codex: I-Really-Like-The-Jetbike-Models-I-Swear-It’s-Not-Because-They’re-OP are all top tier too. But Guard still have the strongest Codex.

 

That Guard aren’t the strongest army is only to do with 8th Ed’s Soup Kitchen Detachment problem.

[NatBrannigan]

I'd just say that means Guard have the best balanced codex which is a good thing right? You should be able to use any models from your codex and not feel handicapped?

 

Also I like soup armies, I just don't like the only reason for them existing to generate more CP's.

 

I guess I just honestly don't understand why Guard get such a bad rap. The whole unbreakable conscript thing (which was reeeeeeeealy stupid) is gone. Infantry squads are hardly broken (outside the aforementioned CP batteries). The orders are just Guards version of the re-roll auras that every army has access to. Ordering a single Infantry Squad to re-roll 1's to hit is not as good as an Aura giving all units within 6" a re-roll 1 to hit. Right? I mean it just can't be... Again I'm not saying orders are bad, of course they're not, but you'd think Guard were winning every tournament on the planet at the moment.

 

If Infantry go up to 5 points per model, company commanders go up, platoon commanders go up, Bullgryns go up (again) they'll just be another Guard unit that's classed as overpowered. It used to be command squads and Scions. None of these Nerfs to Guard have stopped unfluffy soups getting their command points (the real issue). None of them have made Tactical Marines better.

[kombatwombat]

I'd just say that means Guard have the best balanced codex which is a good thing right? You should be able to use any models from your codex and not feel handicapped?

They have probably the best internal Codex balance, yes - most of their units perform on a roughly similar level which is a good thing. The problem is their external balance, which is completely out of whack. Pick ten good units from the Guard Codex and ten good units from the Marine Codex (or Necron or Tau or Daemons or whatever) and the Guard army is simply better than the others. Whether this means the Guard Codex needs to come down or other Codexes need to come up is up for debate, but Guard are pretty comfortable in the #1 Codex spot this edition.

 

That the best Codex isn’t winning tournaments tells us that the Soup imbalance is greater than the external Codex imbalance this edition. This is a good thing actually - if GW decide to, it’s a lot easier to fix a Soup imbalance than a Codex imbalance.

[Closet Skeleton]

Guard aren't the best codex, they're the easiest codex to write a list in.

 

Dark Eldar, Alaitoc and Nurgle Daemons are better pure codex tournament armies than guard. Pure Eldar are still one of the nastiest armies its just that the meta is bored with them.

[kombatwombat]

Guard aren't the best codex, they're the easiest codex to write a list in.

 

Dark Eldar, Alaitoc and Nurgle Daemons are better pure codex tournament armies than guard. Pure Eldar are still one of the nastiest armies its just that the meta is bored with them.

I acknowledged Dark Eldar in my post above, I think they’re definitely on the same level as Guard but I don’t think they’re better. Alaitoc aren’t necessarily better, rather they are a direct counter to Guard; armies like Custodes Jetbikes and Dark Eldar aren’t fantastically bothered by them. Nurgle Daemons I’d forgotten about as I’ve never actually seen someone do well with them.

 

You’re really splitting hairs at that point, though. Even if you successfully argued that Guard aren’t the absolute #1, they’re still head and shoulders above the rest of the books, which is part of why they get so many cries for nerfing.

[NatBrannigan]

Are they though? Is there any tournament result style evidence to support that, because I just don't see it myself.

 

I also think you need to dig deeper. If Guard are blowing everyone away, is it all Guard armies or just Cadian for example? That's a strong regimental rule for sure, however I play with the Mordian rules and really don't feel overpowered when I play. Rather than making everyone who plays guard suffer I'd like to see cries for more specific nerfs if required, or just fix Marines instead.

[Beams]

The last couple tournament reulst I've seen, Eldar have placed multiple times in the top 16, while guard generally is "This is a guard list! If you ignore the 650 pt giant robot that does all of the heavy lifting while we just provided CPs..."

 

Guard aren't the top meta; Just because space Marines suck doesn't mean guard is broken.

[Ishagu]

Eldar place very high all the time, yu'll find them all over the top 16 at any large event. Dark Eldar solo went undefeated at the SoCal open last week, there were 3 Ynnari lists in the top 10 also.