Ork Freebooterz inspiring change in Chapter Tactics?

[Captain Idaho]

Been checking out the Ork Kultur rules on the Warhammer Community site and I think the Freebooterz reminded me of the Ultramarines. The HH rules are similar but I think GW might be happy to introduce a more complex (comparatively) army rule.

 

For those who don't know, when a Freebooterz unit destroys an enemy unit in a phase, all friendly Freebooterz within 24" add +1 to hit that phase. Basically they don't want to be out done.

 

So moving to Ultramarines... would it be more appropriate if their Chapter Tactic was somethings like the following:

 

When an Ultramarines unit attacks a unit which has been attacked by an Ultramarines unit already that phase, they receive a +1 to hit for that phase only.

 

What do folks feel about this?

[Panzer]

Been checking out the Ork Kultur rules on the Warhammer Community site and I think the Freebooterz reminded me of the Ultramarines. The HH rules are similar but I think GW might be happy to introduce a more complex (comparatively) army rule.

 

For those who don't know, when a Freebooterz unit destroys an enemy unit in a phase, all friendly Freebooterz within 24" add +1 to hit that phase. Basically they don't want to be out done.

 

So moving to Ultramarines... would it be more appropriate if their Chapter Tactic was somethings like the following:

 

When an Ultramarines unit attacks a unit which has been attacked by an Ultramarines unit already that phase, they receive a +1 to hit for that phase only.

 

What do folks feel about this?

 

Just attacking as requirement? That could be a bit much. Keep in mind that Space Wolves just get +1 to-hit on the charge. Ultramarines would be easily able to get +2 and more to-hit in the shooting phase and the fight phase that way.

[Halandaar]

Yeah, it's far too easy to trigger such a big bonus. Not to mention that's is going to take the vast majority of units up to 2's to hit against it. Ping a tank with an ineffectual pistol shot so your Lascannon Devastators hit it on 2's, whether you hit it or not? Too strong, too easy.

 

Compare against Tau who need to land 5 successful markerlight hits on a target to access the same shooting buff, and even then they're still only hitting on 3s.

[Captain Idaho]

I meant hit by attacks like the HH rule.

 

Personally I don't think it's too strong. Compare it to Goff Boyz or Death Skulls etc. Marines are hardly broken as is and they would have to hit a target first with a separate unit to get this benefit.

 

What similar sort of alternatives do people have?

[Panzer]

You would need to explain that. Not everyone is playing HH. ^^

[Captain Idaho]

It's exactly like above.

 

Remember how powerful the Clan Kulturs are and even Astra Millitarum traits etc and this Ultramarines one is pretty balanced. Especially as Marines are under powered. Sure compared to other Marines in the book it's better but that isn't a good barometer since they all need work. ;)

[Panzer]

Well in that case I stick to what I said before.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't understand how Ultramarines are getting +2 to hit? What you said before doesn't make sense to me.

 

Space Wolves get +1 to hit in close combat regardless of who or what. Ultramarines would need to dedicate something to shoot at that unit first before getting the bonus.

 

In assault they'd need ANOTHER unit to hit the target unit first. That's again not particularly easy to do all the time.

 

Perfectly balanced.

[Panzer]

I think it's because of the wording you used. To me it reads like a unit would receive that +1 to hit multiple times for each other of your units that already hit the target. Since you are so confused about my confusion I assume you meant it to work only once regardless of with how many other units you hit the target. Maybe using "any Ultramarine unit" would make things more clear.

 

Anyway I still don't think I like it. With such a rule Ultramarines would effectively get a way better version of Markerlights. T'au, the army that can't do anything besides shooting and who have such a mechanic as their core mechanic instead of just a subfaction trait, have to hit with 5 BS4+ Markerlights that don't do any damage to receive a +1 to-hit bonus. Ultramarines would have to hit with any kind of weapon just once to receive the same benefit and at BS3+ at that.

[Ishagu]

I don't think it has any value to our army. At best it's a sideways step when we need boosts in all things Astartes.

 

Marines in general are swimming in re-roll auras for ranged attacks. +1 to hit is redundant, especially as there are multiple rumours knocking about in regards to negative hit modifier nerfs in the coming chapter approved.

 

I would much prefer Chapter Tactics rules that impact vehicles and all units in some ways, and for them to be made better in general.

[Captain Idaho]

That to me is like saying Space Wolves don't need +1 to hit because they have loads of reroll auras.

 

What this idea does is put emphasis on Ultramarines coordination fire together and thus not needing loads of Captains running around.

 

Besides that, +1 to hit works alongside rerolls of 1s...

 

Now, I don't care about Tau at all in this thread. Sure they need work but that shouldn't hold back other armies. After all, Orks got Iron Hands and Salamanders rolled into a single Kultur and no one protests that.

[Panzer]

I don't think T'au need much work in that regard. I just pulled that example to showcase how strong such an ability would be.

On one hand we have T'au, the army that can nothing else besides shooting, has BS4+ and needs 5 not damaging hits to gain +1 to-hit against a unit ... and on the other hand we have Marines who are also somewhat capable at melee and the psychic phase on top of the shooting phase, have BS3+ and would need only a single hit that can potentially kill a model as well to gain +1 to-hit against a unit with your suggestion.

 

Or another example, one of the strongest Stratagems for T'au costs 3CP, you activate it after one of your units inflicted an unsaved wound on an enemy unit and then every other unit gains +1 to-wound against that unit for the phase.

 

I don't understand how you can think that's even remotely balanced? Your idea of coordinated fire is nice, that's what T'au do as well after all, but not very well polished yet.

[Captain Idaho]

It's balanced because it doesn't unbalance the game. Admittedly it's an idea in isolation right now and if Marines get bumped up then if might need a review but as a stand alone amendment to the Codex it's pretty benign.

 

Besides, though you don't think Tau need work I'd like to point out they probably do since your protestations are based on the Tau having to use Marker Lights or Strategums to do the same thing.

 

If we use that logic, Marines need to be dropped in power in the assault because Tau can't achieve that benefit easily. Which I know you don't mean but illustrates the principle.

 

What Tau do on the table overall should be compared to what Marines, in this case Ultramarines, do on the table overall.

[Panzer]

Besides, though you don't think Tau need work I'd like to point out they probably do since your protestations are based on the Tau having to use Marker Lights or Strategums to do the same thing.

 

 

No that's not the case. My point is that Ultramarines with the chapter tactic you suggested would be able to do more with WAY less efford. I think T'au are more or less fine the way they are. They aren't a top tier competetive army but then again top tier competetive armies are usually the ones that are broken in one or two aspects so not something other armies should get measured against. They are in a good middlefield.

[Captain Idaho]

We'll have to agree to disagree (to use a terrible clichè).