Are these "red flags" for you?

[Kastor Krieg]

OK, here's a bit of a story and then I will ask your opinion, please.

Today I've played a game of Kill Team, my Elucidian Starstriders vs his Death Guard (full on power armour). We've played the Sweep & Clear scenario, with 4 more or less equidistant objectives, objective control wins the day (3VP per), kills gain 1 VP. 

I'm faring fairly OK mid-game, lost only one of my squishy T3 5+/5++ models. My opponent is completely invulnerable. T5, 3+, 5+++ disgustingly resilient. And he keeps rolling 5 & 6 all the time, every pool of dice has a majority of those. No 1 or 2, barely a 3 or 4, just fives and sixes. He's using these new KT DG themed dice. Awful to read, especially from a distance.

I use one of his dice which are all over the side of the board by this point, to make a 5+ save and pass. He "roleplays" a Nurgly interpretation of Smeagol, about me touching his dice. I take it in jest, smile and move on, though I tell him openly that I don't like the dice and that I don't blame him, but the small, tumbled dice usually are very imperfect and have bubbles and so on. I propose he uses my dice from now on instead. He refuses. OK, then!

The problem is, he keeps churning out these 5 and 6 rolls like there's no tomorrow. With the DG it barely comes to the disgustingly resilient, even after AP forces him to lose a save - the DR always saves his bacon. This is uncanny, yo.

I also notice some of his throws end up behind one of our token boxes, in places I can't see the result. Not that I would be able to tell these ridiculous irregularly marked tiny dice at a distance. He picks up the results from there and shows me. I don't comment and play on.

I ask for some of his dice for an important throw, he's suddenly very unhappy about it and complains. I don't make anything of it, make the roll and guess what, succeed, with a 5 and a 6. Cool.

I get distracted with some LoS check with my laser, he makes a single die roll when I'm not looking. It's a 6, he picks it up and shows me (I don't see it on the table). I say "sorry, I didn't see that roll". He re-rolls without a comment, which is nice, rolls a rare 4. He fails and pouts a bit about it.

By the end of the game, I gamble and use the van der Grass' Tactic to teleport him to challenge an objective. The gambit has him out in the open, barely obscured for -1 to hit from some of the shooters, in face of a plasma pistol, melta, bolters. He rolls his dice, very successfully. I use mine to lose a Wound on the character. As he switches to the next shooter, I say I want to use his dice for my saves. He's very much against it and vocally so. I say, hey, it's only fair, isn't it? I use his dice, make the necessary 5++ saves, the gambit pays off big time.

They guy replies in response that "it's not done, using people's dice, what was I thinking", etc.; Claims he won't play me again because I used his dice against him. Thing is, it's an FLGS campaign, where we might need to play again against each other. I don't want to sit out a 2 week round because he refuses to play (even though it's an automatic victory for me).

I'm not accusing him of intentional cheating or anything of the kind. I think it's very weird that somebody has all those little behaviours and then refuses to share their dice or use mine. So, I'm suspicious and when we play again I will insist that we use the same set of dice. What do you think?



My dice look like this (the same dice, just reverse colors, from the starter KT box, full sized, sharp edges and corners)



His dice (official Death Guard Kill Team dice, small and tumbled for rounded edges and corners)

[Panzer]

Well it's possible he manipulated his dice, but it's just as possible it was just a coincidence. Impossible to tell without a bunch of test rolls or the water test.

I wouldn't judge his behaviour too much. Some people are weird and rather possessive when it comes to their dice, especially such fancy thematically fitting dice.

[Stercus]

The tumbled edges shouldn’t make too much difference, but it does sound like he may have issues. I’m not saying hes a bad guy, but if he belonged to your neighbour, the bible wouldn’t like you coveting him.

FLGS to me stands or falls on the first letter. This guy isn’t friendly, he’s weird. I think if he’s odd about whose dice are whose then you have every reason to ask for a neutral set.

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

Sounds a tag cagey, but while I don't have any issues with otehr people rolling my dice, I can definely see how people may take issues with others handling their dice (esp if they're themed).

 

My concern, however, stems from the idea that I can''t actually tell which face of the D6 is 1 and which face is 6 (partially because I don't own any of those dice and also because im not a fan of dice w/ special faces in general). Is it possible that he's been swapping which faces are which, especially given that both symbols are roughly triangular in shape, making it even harder to read?

 

If you do play him again, ask for neutral dice that aren't themed, to avoid any chances of that happening. 

 

With any luck you won't have to play him again and this issue won't come up.

[Kastor Krieg]

Well it's possible he manipulated his dice, but it's just as possible it was just a coincidence. Impossible to tell without a bunch of test rolls or the water test.

I wouldn't judge his behaviour too much. Some people are weird and rather possessive when it comes to their dice, especially such fancy thematically fitting dice.

I'm not even thinking along these lines. With :cussty dice, a batch of them can roll really well or really poor. My default Necromunda dice were crap. The themed gang ones roll extremely well, for most everyone last campaign - people just wholesale switched to those (which is fine, because if everyone rolls well, nobody really loses, the fights are just more deadly). My Nighthaunt dice from the AoS starter set roll pretty well, that's why I don't use them despite the fact that there's 20+ of them and I like how they look. Almost identical red dice from GW's other games roll about neutral.

 

If anything, my suspicion is more along the lines of insincerity rather that full on moustache twirling cheating. It's not like he's one of the dunces who have different dice for Ld tests and different ones for saving throws. He seemed to just be well aware of how "above average" his dice roll and not to want to share their "glory", not to be beaten by his own "good dice".

 

The fact is though that as far as I know the social contract is "if anyone is in doubt, share the same set of dice" and that goes both at tournaments, official events and causal play. Some players I told about this expressed dismay at hearing somebody outright refused using my dice and at the same time sharing theirs.

[Ordo Machinum]

Never rub another man's rhubarb. 

Personally, I prefer using dice that are sharp and clear for all to see at any FLGS.
Themed dice are strictly for my home collection and games. I don't take anything to a public setting that I don't mind touched, broken, or lost - models not withstanding. 

[BitsHammer]

I recall some rather enthusiastic people doing a massive study on different kinds of dice, and they found the rounded corner Chessex style dice tended to roll slightly more ones than square dice, and the fairest where Casino dice. I'd assume the Nurgle dice to be more like that in general, but at the same time I also had a set of Chessex dice that were very good at making 6++ saves for my Sisters. So good that I actually retired those dice because I was concerned that there might be some natural air bubbles or something that were making the dice less fair.

 

And maybe that's what's happening here, or maybe Nurgle smiled one of those ugly smiles he does and the guy was just rolling hot. 

 

That said, not touching people's dice is pretty common for a lot of people, as is throwing a fit when asked to roll where people can see since some people feel like they're being accused of cheating. On group is a little superstitious, the other is prone to being a little on the thin skinned side and sometimes these two groups overlap. Your opponent might be one of those people. 

 

That said, if you feel a legit concern about your oppnent's rolls you could bring a dice tray that you both roll into, or make sure you're standing where you can see they're rolls. As for not being able to read dice at a distance, that can happen with a lot of dice designs due to color combinations being rather painful to deal with at times and there isn't a good fix for that unfortunately.

[Trevak Dal]

So I think problems like this can be accounted for by having "store dice" where there is a big hulking bucket of cream dice with black pips for max readability. Everybody uses store dice or GW branded dice app (I believe that was a thing right?).

 

That way, there is no perceived impropriety or shadiness.

 

Time for a Trademark Trevak Tangent:

 

If you have seen that movie Legend of Bagger Vance? There's a bit where Matt Damon's character is playing a golf tournament, and he's clearing brush from under his ball, and it moves. He was out of view of his opponents, so he could have just not called a stroke, the boy who was his caddy practically begged him to do this, but he wouldn't.

 

I sort of take that view and when I roll I make sure my opponent sees it before I touch it. I aspire to be "good guy Greg".

 

But if I ran a tournament or owned my own gamestore, casino dice are a bit too big to roll say, guard/Ork/Tyranids/cultists numbers of shooting or attacks, but the next size down (come in packs of 12) are great, so I'd provide them for the tournament/store like I suggested. That way everybody uses the same dice.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If his dice tended to wobble when they were thrown on the table that’s a sign they are weighted.

[MARK0SIAN]

Perhaps just mention your concerns to whoever is running the league, you may not be the only person who has noticed it. It could lead them to clarify about using one set of dice or insist on store dice instead.

[Black Knight]

It might be a deliberate attempt to fudge the dice but it could also be many other things and I would skeptically stay on that side of the fence. If he has altered his dice then after a few games you will know, the whole shop will know.

 

It maybe that he doesn't want you to touch his dice and unfortunately that maybe because he has a sense of ownership over those dice or even worse, like me, maybe not completely all there up top. I've suffered from OCD since I was 10 and even now in my mid 30s still have problems with people touching my things. Not a problem with you at all but I have huge reservations about anyone touching my dice to the point where it causes me pain. At the end of the day I can talk about my problems but its taken decades to be able to do that. If you told me your issues I would gladly agree to use some standard dice but unfortunately people with these problems become very good at hiding it ;) and if you ask him you might just get a defensive wall that even Primarch Dorn would be proud of.

 

He could be an agent of Tzeentch or simply a normal guy that has issues(Who doesn't today?) and the only way you'll truly find out is to play the game and develop a friendship. And as we can't be friends with everyone I would just play the game and be skeptical.

 

So if I were you, I would express your concerns to the tournament leader and carry on. If you play him again politely ask that all dice are thrown in a certain place that is easily viewable.

[Morticon]

im weirdly superstitious about people touching my dice- and they roll phenomenally averagely  :/  But, if i was rolling as hot as him, id probably insist he use them, so as not to seem like im doing something illegal

[Panzer]

If his dice tended to wobble when they were thrown on the table that’s a sign they are weighted.

 

Not necessarily tho.

Last saturday I bought a few dice of the frosted variant from Chessex at the SPIEL in Essen. I did some test rolls at home like any sane person does and due their surface and the edges they wobble a LOT. Like an unbelievable amount. I'm not kidding when I'm saying that a lot of times I thought a dice would stop at one number just to dramatically slowly roll over to the next. It's fun to use them but naturally I was concerned so I did the water test to check whether there are any air bubbles or similar. There aren't any. It's just the surface that makes them wobble like mad.

 

So wobbling may be a sign for weighted dice but not necessarily so we are back to the beginning and we can't really say one or another without proper testing.

[Slasher956]

i'm very particular about my dice... I like to put them 6 side up when not rolling them... apart from that they are dice :p

 

I do however like to find one place on the board to roll dice where we both players can see the dice before touching them (they help me see results that I miss... like 1's that I can re-roll)

 

Also if one of us is rolling saves and want to just use the dice that have been rolled to wound then I dont have an issue.... saves us counting up how many you need and clearing away the dice that have just been rolled.

[gilt_imp]

The fact this guy was unhappy sharing his dice when clearly, they were rolling better than average does seem a bit odd.

 

I’ve known players who have been very reluctant, angry even, like full on crazy angry, to allow anyone to touch their dice. When one guy got on a series of high rolls he thought that if someone else touched his dice it would disturb the ‘energy’ he had imbued them with and ruin his lucky streak. Like it was some spiritual or positive energy he had instilled in them!

 

 

Then again pray the dice handlers don’t get out of hand. In one extreme case of dice related stories, once upon a time at a tournament… There was a kid who loved stealing dice at our local flgs. Everyone knew it. The owner, the locals, everyone. This kid did have a learning disorder, maybe he was even just attracted to colourful or shiny things, but it got so bad they even made jokes and gave him the moniker ‘dice stealer’. Like watch your dice boys, dice stealer is here this weekend etc etc. Anyway, at a tournament weekend once, a couple of new guys caught him in the act and took exception. Outside the store they held him down and forced him to swallow a handful of dice he had tried to steal!!! Kid was crying and hysterical. I know this as that’s how I found him, I even drove him to hospital and made sure his mum got called.

[Leif Bearclaw]

It might be a deliberate attempt to fudge the dice but it could also be many other things and I would skeptically stay on that side of the fence. If he has altered his dice then after a few games you will know, the whole shop will know.

 

It maybe that he doesn't want you to touch his dice and unfortunately that maybe because he has a sense of ownership over those dice or even worse, like me, maybe not completely all there up top. I've suffered from OCD since I was 10 and even now in my mid 30s still have problems with people touching my things. Not a problem with you at all but I have huge reservations about anyone touching my dice to the point where it causes me pain. At the end of the day I can talk about my problems but its taken decades to be able to do that. If you told me your issues I would gladly agree to use some standard dice but unfortunately people with these problems become very good at hiding it and if you ask him you might just get a defensive wall that even Primarch Dorn would be proud of.

 

He could be an agent of Tzeentch or simply a normal guy that has issues(Who doesn't today?) and the only way you'll truly find out is to play the game and develop a friendship. And as we can't be friends with everyone I would just play the game and be skeptical.

 

So if I were you, I would express your concerns to the tournament leader and carry on. If you play him again politely ask that all dice are thrown in a certain place that is easily viewable.

 

Very much this. While I don't have OCD or anything, sharing my 'army dice' (yes, I have different dice for the armies I play regularly) really bugs me. I ended up carnying an extra couple of GW dice cubes for when opponents hadn't brought their own dice, as I was far less cagey lending those out. So I can't really begrudge someone being possessive about their dice, especially when they're fancy like that.

 

Now, refusing to play you again because you used his dice with permission is weird, but hardly outside the scale for weird in this hobby (it really is a lightning rod for weird).

 

I wouldn't go so far as to insist on shared dice, because that could so very easily be interpreted as an accusation of something untoward. Maybe ask he has different dice he could use if it's really bothering you? Cite that those DG ones are hard to see the results of.

 

[Kastor Krieg]

Like I said guys, weighted dice are not even part of equation here. Just a crappy set that rolls high and some other quirky / suspicious behaviours that only as a whole made me raise a brow.

If I use his dice, we both roll high. If we uses my dice, we both roll... well, average? My rolls weren't awful. Refusing to use his dice, my dice or a third set for both of us is... weird. Definitely not into "he's cheating!" area, but way into "that's not really what fair play is about", in my book.

[NatBrannigan]

I have some spare D&D dice so that no-one has to use mine... Not to worried about any others but I kind of get the sharing thing, especially if my opponent has his own dice.

 

If I were your opponent and was just a bit possessive about my dice, I'd be a bit insulted of you were asking to use mine. In my mind you'd essentially be accusing me of cheating which I find abhorrent and pointless in a fun game, tournament or no.

 

However I also don't roll behind objects or pick up dice from the table to show my opponent, that's sketchy. Similar to the person who is happy to take the result of a dice that ends up on the floor when it's a 6, but always re-rolls when it's a 1... Sketchy.

 

My advice for next time you play him? Take a tray to roll the dice in. No-one can possibly object to that, quite the opposite really. You could also ask him to use a different set of dice, maybe bring a spare set, saying you just can't read the special dice properly. I can't read them at all either and always forget which symbol is a 1 and which a 6... Far too elaborate those dice.

[Panzer]

Reminds me of this video I've seen not too long ago ^^

 

[Arkhanist]

I get a bit possessive about good quality dice (legibility is a requirement, so none of that custom symbols for 1 & 6, thank you) as I've had too many disappear over the years, and once you've lost a few too many the set can become useless if you can't buy more of the same type. Which is why I don't usually use my nice dice against people I don't know. Even if I did bring em out, I wouldn't mind my opponent using them as that'd just be really rude, and if I suspect they're not rolling fair I wouldn't use em at all. But some people can definitely be a bit OCD about it, just as they can be about people touching their models without asking.

 

Complaining about you "using his dice against him" though, that shows he knows his dice roll high. It might not be intentional, but that is a form of cheating and it's definitely harshing the 'friendly' part of FLGS.

 

Have a chat with the campaign organiser, it's very likely you're not the only one who's encountered his behaviour. Neutral basic dice you share (and ideally a tray) so rolls are clear is the way to go on the grounds of legibility which is hard to argue against and avoids a whole bunch of potential flare ups - and isn't a bad idea for all competitive matches, not just with this guy.

[Scammel]

The red flag is that he seems to be a rather strange individual. We can all end up frustrated dealing with bad-yet-lucky opponents and let our confirmation bias run away with itself.

 

That said, while I'm always sceptical of the accusation of weighted dice, I've certainly had opponents try to pull a fast one on me with the results themselves. Having a friend on hand to make sure you're not being paranoid about sketchy behaviour helps.

[JaM_TW]

Speaking from my Bloodbowl experiences:

 

You should be free to use your opponetns dice. Or he using yours. Sometimes it's a bit uncomfortable 9that's why most people dont do it), but if you get hte feeling his dice are not random enough, ask them to share their dice. Or use yours.

Unreadable? I've had that happen a few times (not with mine though). If I cant read them from the other side of the (compared to 40K) small table, you should not use them.

 

And make it clear what a crookoed roll is, reroll one die or both, etc. etc. beforehand. Most of the time you do this in tournaments, before the game starts. With local, friendly games I dont have problems because we know each other, and they are "friendly" games (still exciting and full of bravado and stuff).

 

Then again, in BBowl you dont roll the massive amount you roll in 40K.

 

 

But:

 

In this instance I'd start using his dice. If he doesnt want that, you both should use yours. If he still doesnt want that there's probably something wrong with his dice.

I'd call in a judge..? Or something. Or use a fresh, neutral pile of dice.

 

And you always make sure your opponent sees what you roll, when you roll it. Not what you got. Because that's a big red flag for me. I want to see the dice rolling and want to see the numbers. Take away the ones that didnt make it, show the result, pick them up and roll again (or whatever).

 

hope this helps!

[The Unseen]

If he isn't willing to let you use his dice, and also isn't willing to use your dice, or a different "neutral" set, I'd ask why not? Cause that's kinda a big tip-off that maybe he knows his dice are rolling better than they should. Not wanting to share I kinda understand, people get possessive of their own dice, myself included. I paid way to much for the damn BA specific dice GW put out awhile ago, but I love them anyway. Skulls on the 1 and BA symbol on the 6, Praise Sanguinius. But if someone wasn't happy with me using them for literally any reason, from them not being able to see them very well (they do have a glare at some angles) or tell symbols apart, or just concerned because I've rolled nothing but boxcars all game, I wouldn't take it personally. I keep a bag full of generic D6's on hand for a reason.

TLDR: being weird doesn't exempt you from the social contract of playing a game that uses dice, be prepared to share or use neutral dice upon request.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

If his dice tended to wobble when they were thrown on the table that’s a sign they are weighted.

 

Not necessarily tho.

Last saturday I bought a few dice of the frosted variant from Chessex at the SPIEL in Essen. I did some test rolls at home like any sane person does and due their surface and the edges they wobble a LOT. Like an unbelievable amount. I'm not kidding when I'm saying that a lot of times I thought a dice would stop at one number just to dramatically slowly roll over to the next. It's fun to use them but naturally I was concerned so I did the water test to check whether there are any air bubbles or similar. There aren't any. It's just the surface that makes them wobble like mad.

 

So wobbling may be a sign for weighted dice but not necessarily so we are back to the beginning and we can't really say one or another without proper testing.

 

 

 

Throw the dice in a bucket of water - if they come up 5s and 6s you know they are weighted.

[Panzer]

 

 

If his dice tended to wobble when they were thrown on the table that’s a sign they are weighted.

 

 

Not necessarily tho.

Last saturday I bought a few dice of the frosted variant from Chessex at the SPIEL in Essen. I did some test rolls at home like any sane person does and due their surface and the edges they wobble a LOT. Like an unbelievable amount. I'm not kidding when I'm saying that a lot of times I thought a dice would stop at one number just to dramatically slowly roll over to the next. It's fun to use them but naturally I was concerned so I did the water test to check whether there are any air bubbles or similar. There aren't any. It's just the surface that makes them wobble like mad.

 

So wobbling may be a sign for weighted dice but not necessarily so we are back to the beginning and we can't really say one or another without proper testing.

 

 

Throw the dice in a bucket of water - if they come up 5s and 6s you know they are weighted.

I said I did just that.