Crusader Squads and Rhino Mounted

[Schlitzaf]

Irony I know? But I have been going through the process of revamping my standard list setup, and I have been drawn back to the old fashion RhinoCrusaders. But even as I type this, what comes to mind is my own advice about Crusader Squads this edition; MSU or Tide Squads. 

 

Now for those who don't know why, its the way the melee of the Crusader Squad works out. If you take an MSU small stabby, it is incredibly inefficient points wise (Vangaurd for 15 points more are just better). But as a troop unit able to double special and heavy unparalled among Marines. And related it just lacks the numbers and weight of attacks even if it does connect. In contrast taking a shooty tide squad wastes the MSU quality. However by extension in terms of raw STR4 attacks per point spent the Crusader Squad is on par with Vangaurd, and damage output is similar to an Intercessor Squad of similar points. The Crusader Squad damage is however skewed to melee vs Intercessor damage being roughly 50/50. 

 

This brings us back to the Crusader and Rhino-Mounted, being in the exact middle of Tide and fauxDevi, it lacks the efficiency of the tide, and doesn't have raw damage output FauxDevi. The changes to deep strikers makes it so my tactic of suicidal Reivars less effective. I have tried Bikers, and don't have the damage. And currently allied in some AdMech to help this, but while not ineffective they don't help redirect shooting from Marines. 

 

Now looking at Rhino Crusaders, I long advocate the Heavy Bolter/PlasmaOrGrav setup but I have issues with that being why am I mounting and not just shooting? However by extension at midsize Crusader Squad is 130-150, a tide Crusader is 200ish. If you do the smallest effective Crusader setup and a Rhino, your not saving points. Now all this stated, why am I going back or even dare to theorize on it?

 

The classic 5thEd Style Rhino Rush. For those who didn't know, in fifth ed, Templars had three style of competitive lists; The Tide, The RhinoRush and the FauxDevi Spam. The tide used fearless in close combat, alongside having preferred enemy, to be able to be mathematically as good as Grey Hunters or Khorne Berzerkers. Or as effective more accurately, the whole concept given the 3+ Sv losing combat didn't really matter for Crusader and where other armies relied on charge the tide focus was on reception of the charge. 

 

How did the RhinoRush compare? Well where Tide was defensive, Rush was aggressive. The rules for transports said if you get out of one that did not move, you can then charge. Meaning you disembark 3', move 6' and charge 6'. Giving by turn 15' threat bubble from the Rhino. The issue Rhino Rushes, was losing turn 1. As your four rhino getting immobilized and forcing your 10 man squads to walk into enemy fire and small guns. The era of 6th and 7th saw the Rhino Rush die, and the Tide/FauxDevi Lists become our 'competitive' setups. 6th and 7th even if a transport did not move you could no longer charge unless it was open top or an assault vehicle. 

 

I'll be honest I fell into the trap this edition of discounting the RhinoRush, while I still think as a unit 9-10 man Crusaders are 'bad', the reason the RhinoRush was no longer valid is not true. You can move 12' and advance, pop smoke. Then turn 2 disembark, move and then charge an average 8'-9' (that keeps the average threat range of 15' despite losing the 3' deployment then move of 5th edition). But what worries is me that Tide Crusaders work because normally inefficient melee choices (Power Swords on 1A model) are counterbalanced by the squad being otherwise highly efficient. 

 

RhinoRush has the related issue in that it does not effectively use any of our benefits beside our Neophytes. The Helm Relic has a little advantage in a Rhino Rush, given your not making as large charges, Cenos have little to no point. The only thing Rhino Rushes do benefit from is the Emperor's Champion delivery system, and enhancing the bubble for our deny stratagem. All this said, it brings me to another reason why I am considering doing the RhinoRush; footprint. 

 

Its nigh impossible to fit more than three tide squads around 12' fearless bubble and 9' helm bubble. A secondary but minor issue is the difficulty of fitting it within the backup 6' fearless bubble from Emperor Standard or Rites. Furthermore the third tide squad is almost unable to engage unless one of the other two squads get out of position. That difficulty is one of the main reasons I moved to doing two tide squads and two intercessor squads. 

 

Having a couple Rhino Squads, I could in theory have them operate away from the central bubble as they don't need the fearless buff. And it doesn't matter till turn 2-3 that are in the 9' reroll bubble, also they can hide the champion and teethCastallen as the delivery mechanism. Finally one of my biggest concerns about all this, is that including Rhinos or any vehicles in a tide list, defeats half the point of tides; Blunting enemy anti-armor. Suddenly all those lascannons now have a target to shoot at. 

 

Coming togethor; Basically I am trying to ask HELP! I am both stumbled and uncertain what the correct decision here is. And I want to get a second or third opinion, do the pros outweight the cons or vice versa?

[Closet Skeleton]

Rhino rush was a good strategy for Chaos in the early months of the edition, don't believe anyone who says that transports don't work in 8th ed. Rhinos (always take 2 storm bolters) are just all round great things to have in your list in 8th ed. In my experience with a mechanized death guard army the advantage of rhinos is that they're a great alpha strike defense, worrying about giving lascannons a target doesn't matter if the non-antitank weapons aren't in range anyway.

 

I have tournament reports of a mixed rhino/tide list somewhere in this forum. Rushing my opponent never turned out to be viable or necessary.

 

I would still do what I did in that tournament and stuff the rhinos with 2 units of 5.

[Acebaur]

Something else to consider with rhino rush in 8th is that you can put multiple units in a transport. So you can put 2 MSU crusaders in there or a crusader and an actual Dev squad with something high rate of fire like grav or HB. Or you can put some veterans and a character. There are a lot of possibilities of things to support the crusader squad whether it be MSU or not. Plus remember to always take a second SB on it, they are boss this edition :)

[Firepower]

One thing easily overlooked is Hunter killer missiles. The times I've played using Rhinos I was short on anti armor shooting, but 8 Hunter Killers between them, 2 Ironclads and an LRC put in a surprising amount of work. They're not a guarantee, but cheap enough to be worth a gamble for the teeth they give your transports.

[Margulix]

Well i dunno. I played with squads in rhinos, and they kinds... not doing their job.

Maybe it is Meta in my country, but everybody packs a lot of lascannons nowadays. 

 

Also rhinos are having the same problem as droppods and etc - they are pricey. And if you want to play with crusaders - you need a lot of bodies.

 

Maybe classic las-plas will be good. 5-man squad with 2 plasmas and lascannon in las razorback can do a fair damage. Pack 3 of those and they will provide good fire support along with maneuver. But anyways BT have problem with decent CC unit. Apart from reivers and vanguards.

[arigatous]

I had tried Rhinos for melee in different combinations and never had any considerable success with those. A 9-10 bodies melee crus squad is just bad by any means. Two MSU units behaved somewhat better since they bring up to 6 power attacks and are free from morale issues. But the real problem is that you need to bury ±220 points in a squad which is technically still a support squad. Two squads like that cost 400s which is comparable to a full Spearhead Detachment or a Knight!

 

The root cause is that both basic marines and rhinos are ridiculously overpriced. If the whole squad cost was ±170 points, that would be a totally different story.