Acceptable limts of proxying GW models for other GW models

[Indefragable]

Hi all,

 

Want to throw this out there to gauge thoughts and reactions.

 

 

For some of us, converting and/or proxying is a key part of the hobby. Who wants a cookie cutter burger with secret sauce when you can have it made "your way" etc...

 

For others, whether for financial, skill, or other reasons, proxying is the only way to get a game in here or there (just saw a post on another forum about somebody's new puppy that broke into the gaming cabinet....biotitans wreak havoc!).

 

Regardless, for the purpose of of this conversation, I want to put aside friendly situations where someone has asked to test out a list before committing to purchasing models, the toddler wanted to see what the garbage disposal could do to Sgt Lucky and so forth.

 

Rather, I want to envision a setting such as a tournament or pick-up game where you do not know the person you are playing (or their skills, intentions, or level miserable human being-ness). The important factor is that the army you are seeing on the tabletop is how the other player wants it to be. It is the "finished" product so to speak.

 

How far would you go to letting a person proxy or use counts-as models, especially if one type of GW model is being used to represent another?

 

Specifically, the type of scenario I am thinking is if a person with Chaos Space Marines used Astra Militarum guardsmen as cultists, or if  a Codex: Space Marine player used Imperial Guardsmen as Scouts.

 

...what if a Chaos or SM player instead used Eldar Guardians as cultists or Scouts? What if they allied in an Imperial Guard detachment, but x% of the "Imperial Guard" models were actually Eldar models (because that PDF uses captured Eldar equipment or some such)?

 

A Tau player with Termagaunts counting-as Kroot?

 

A Tyranid player using Death Guard to represent Tyrant Guard?

 

Etc, etc, etc...

 

Where would one draw the line?

 

****

For me, personally, I have generally been ok with unusual setups so long as there is a level of internal balance and consistency to it. I.e. if someone is using Guardsmen as SM Scouts, then every Guardsman on the field must represent a Scout, and so on and so forth.

 

There's also a degree of subjectivity to it, especially when it comes to the level of implied effort the player appears to have put in. Such as an Imperial Fists player using Guardsmen as Scouts, but the Guardsmen are all painted in IF yellow with chapter iconography. A bunch of Cadian-green Guardsmen with Cadian 8th insignia all over them may make me raise an eyebrow, but I'd still be cool with it. If they have an IG detachment with green Cadians, but then also have green Cadians being used as Scouts, I would probably speak up, since in the heat of battle that just gets confusing.

 

Looking to get your thoughts.

 

-Indy

[RandyB]

My first rule is no visual confusion. If x proxies y, then x always proxies y and y is always proxied by x, for the duration of the battle if not the tournament. No "These x proxy y, those x proxy z" or "these x and those y proxy z". I'd be a little flexible with the latter case as long as I can visually track what a given model's datasheet is supposed to be.

[Xenith]

Firstly, proxying =/= counts as.

 

Termagants with kroot heads being used as Kroot hounds = no problem.

Eldar rangers painted like guard being used as ratlings = no problem. 

Death guard plague marines as Tyrant guard = problem. 

 

Internal rules for proxying: Must be models from the same army, same base size, roughly the same model size, no more than 1 - 2 games before I start making fun of you.

[Indefragable]

Firstly, proxying =/= counts as.

 

Termagants with kroot heads being used as Kroot hounds = no problem.

Eldar rangers painted like guard being used as ratlings = no problem. 

Death guard plague marines as Tyrant guard = problem. 

 

Internal rules for proxying: Must be models from the same army, same base size, roughly the same model size, no more than 1 - 2 games before I start making fun of you.

 

So that we're all on the same page, what is the difference between proxying and counts-as in your book?

 

Secondly, in your above examples, what makes the Death Guard example a problem? (looking to understand specifics).

[Khornestar]

My first rule is no visual confusion. If x proxies y, then x always proxies y and y is always proxied by x, for the duration of the battle if not the tournament. No "These x proxy y, those x proxy z" or "these x and those y proxy z". I'd be a little flexible with the latter case as long as I can visually track what a given model's datasheet is supposed to be.

Yep, this is how I feel as well.

 

I’d much rather see a fully painted army where things are more or less what they’re supposed to be, but in the end it’s just a game of toy soldiers that gives me an excuse to roll a bunch of dice.

[Toxichobbit]

 

Firstly, proxying =/= counts as.

 

Termagants with kroot heads being used as Kroot hounds = no problem.

Eldar rangers painted like guard being used as ratlings = no problem. 

Death guard plague marines as Tyrant guard = problem. 

 

Internal rules for proxying: Must be models from the same army, same base size, roughly the same model size, no more than 1 - 2 games before I start making fun of you.

 

So that we're all on the same page, what is the difference between proxying and counts-as in your book?

 

Secondly, in your above examples, what makes the Death Guard example a problem? (looking to understand specifics).

 

 

Death Guard and Tyrant Guard are on different sized bases and the minatures themselves have a significant difference in size. Tyrant Guard are closer to a Dreadnought, so using them as line infantry would be pushing it, at best. Personally I wouldn't accept that proxy, Death Guard models can move into and hide in places that Tyrant Guard have no place being, so it's having a very real impact on the game and giving the opponent a large advantage.

[PeteySödes]

I agree with everyone pretty much that it just can't be confusing. I also have probably an elitist view though that the cooler and more well done it is the further I can suspend my "mmmmkay" face.

 

For example I just cannot abide by using thing like Papo figures or the like as counts as _____ . 

[MARK0SIAN]

I’ve always understood proxying to be using kitbashed models in place of the official ones, maybe with some non-standard parts but generally still identifiable as the model it is proxying for.

 

Counts as means taking any model and just saying it’s another, it could bear no actual resemblance to the intended model. Like taking a marine and pretending he’s a genestealer.

 

Like I said though, that’s only my understanding of it, I could be totally wrong.

 

As for how far I would let someone go, I would draw the line at using models entirely from a different army to represent one, so I wouldn’t be happy with guardsmen being used as marine scouts. Obviously if the model is mainly a marine scout but the guy has added on a couple of bits of guard spares that’s fine.

 

I would also say that wargear should generally be easily identified and finally:

 

The model must be the same size (including its base)

The models must only be representing one unit in any game (like RandyB said)

I wouldn’t expect more than one instance of proxying (if several different units are proxying for others it’s not fair on the opponent to expect them to keep track)

[Marshal Rohr]

If I know the person they could do count-as for anything they want.

[BlackTriton]

In tournament, I pay for entry and expect the right models at the right places and to be painted.

Conversion to be approved by the TO and if its not wysiwyg to not be confusing.

I also expect different faction of a same codex to be distinguishable.

 

In pick up / league / friendly play I would accept empty bases and armless dudes if every thing is clear as to what it is. The key is to avoid confusion.

[Trevak Dal]

I've used Kroot as chaos cultists. They have similar profiles (t3, bs4+ ws4+, 6+ save) and they are useful as "krootists" instead of being used as Kroot for tau (like when they could take sniper ammo and you could have 24 snipers up in somebody's face.)

 

I'd say any space marines could play almost any space marines, so long as they are armed (CSM models with Bolter and bolt pistol are the same as loyalists with a Bolter and bolt pistol).

 

I wouldnt try and run them as grey knights because that is a lot of extra work (the specific nemesis weapons AND the storm Bolter to be converted not to mention the special weapons)

 

But you shouldn't run rhinos as dark eldar transports. Or space marines as eldar.

 

Eldar as cultists...I don't know, I mean they are t3 and all and guardians have a :cussty save, and totally okay with guardsmen as cultists because gw wants to :cuss around and sell 5 man boxes of cultists (of mixed kinds when the minimum size is 10) and lasguns are autoguns insofar as effectiveness on the TT.

 

Guard as scouts? I don't know.

 

Dred as a ven dred? Sure. Dred as a Primaris dred? No. Dred (or ven dred) as a helbrute? Sure. Helbrute as a dred or ven dred? Sure. But no "well this one is a venerable, this one isn't" make it consistent.

 

Primaris as regular marines? Sure, but no running say intecessors or hellblasters and doing that.

 

My house rule (pending chapter approved) is all Astartes get +1 wound and attack and chapter/legion tactics work on all vehicles/models.

 

Age of Sigmar stuff as xenos/daemons is okay so long as it's consistent. Say you want some wood elf tree guys as stand ins for wraithblades? Cool, just arm them all the same.

[Beams]

The weapons must be accurately represented, and the size should be similar.

[Ipsen]

Dred as a ven dred? Sure. Dred as a Primaris dred? No. Dred (or ven dred) as a helbrute? Sure. Helbrute as a dred or ven dred? Sure. But no "well this one is a venerable, this one isn't" make it consistent.

 

 

Wait. Is there a modeling difference between a ven. dread and a dread? Obviously if you have one of each they should look different but does a ven.dread have something that marks it as a ven. dread?

[Gederas]

Dred as a ven dred? Sure. Dred as a Primaris dred? No. Dred (or ven dred) as a helbrute? Sure. Helbrute as a dred or ven dred? Sure. But no "well this one is a venerable, this one isn't" make it consistent.

 

Wait. Is there a modeling difference between a ven. dread and a dread? Obviously if you have one of each they should look different but does a ven.dread have something that marks it as a ven. dread?

If you want to get technical, Venerable Dreadnoughts have the "helmet" and  a Dreadnought CCW that looks like a proper hand.

 

Otherwise, nope. No difference :lol:

[Jukkiz]

 

Dred as a ven dred? Sure. Dred as a Primaris dred? No. Dred (or ven dred) as a helbrute? Sure. Helbrute as a dred or ven dred? Sure. But no "well this one is a venerable, this one isn't" make it consistent.

 

Wait. Is there a modeling difference between a ven. dread and a dread? Obviously if you have one of each they should look different but does a ven.dread have something that marks it as a ven. dread?

If you want to get technical, Venerable Dreadnoughts have the "helmet" and  a Dreadnought CCW that looks like a proper hand.

 

Otherwise, nope. No difference

 

And even then, venerable dreads have options to fully "normal" box look and dreadnought close combat weapon...

[Ishagu]

I don't accept any proxying whatsoever because, typically, people are doing so to use a unit with superior rules or wargear better suited to deal with their opponent. I've never seen someone who's about to face a list full of tanks announce that the meltas his units are equipped with are actually flamers, but I've seen it the other way round more often than I can count. Also it puts their opponent at a disadvantage, no matter how small.

 

The ones claiming they are testing units out rarely buy said units and instead move on to proxying something else.

 

Zero tolerance. It's part of WAAC behaviour.

 

Conversions, especially good ones, are a different matter entirely but that is a case by case basis.

[Beams]

I use heavy conversions, but never proxies.

 

I don't really mind if my opponents proxy, but it makes it difficult to understand their army sometimes.

[Panzer]

Honestly for actual proxys I'd allow basically anything that has the same base size and model size so it basically works the same on the board. But only for like 2-3 games (depends on how frequently you play). Using proxys is a stop-gap. A temporary solution until you got the models asap or to test out a new unit you're unsure to purchase.

 

As for counts as. Of course same base size and model size is a given but it also has to have characteristics similar to the unit it represents. If the original unit is a bike I expect the counts as to be something mounted or similarly fast moving. If the original unit can fly I expect the counts as to look like it could fly as well. If the original unit has rifles I expect the counts as to have something like rifles as well and not some huge cannons or melee weapons or whatever.

A beautiful example for that would be in the Emperor's Spears WIP thread in the forge where the OP build himself a team of three veterans equipped with melee weapons and plasma to use as a counts as Guilliman. They have a similar silhouette, use the same base size, are properly equipped and have the necessary rank to make it believable they together could figh about as well as a primarch if trained properly. Also there's no other unit in the Codex you could confuse them with.

Basically it needs to be something fitting so one can "see" what unit they are supposed to count as ... as the name implies.

 

About what's the different between proxy and counts as? Counts as is something permanent you add to your army. A concious decision based on a theme or whatever you have going for your army. Like my Firewarriors with mechanical Jetpack wings instead of using the Vespid models for example. A proxy is a temporary solution you'd want to get rid of as soon as you can and not play with them for half a year while buying other things.

[Gederas]

I don't accept any proxying whatsoever because, typically, people are doing so to use a unit with superior rules or wargear better suited to deal with their opponent. I've never seen someone who's about to face a list full of tanks announce that the meltas his units are equipped with are actually flamers, but I've seen it the other way round more often than I can count. Also it puts their opponent at a disadvantage, no matter how small.

 

The ones claiming they are testing units out rarely buy said units and instead move on to proxying something else.

 

Zero tolerance. It's part of WAAC behaviour.

 

Conversions, especially good ones, are a different matter entirely but that is a case by case basis.

Or, you know, the person proxying is waiting on the models they're proxying to come in because FedEx is taking their sweet time to deliver your stuff and have taken FIVE WEEKS deliver your stuff for the fifth 'ing time (In case you can't tell, I've had to do this a lot thanks to FedEx.... :lol:)

[Vykes]

So long as there's internal consistency and it's vaguely similar, then I'm pretty okay with just about anything: a nice bit of kitbashing, some paint, and I'm pretty permissive and supportive of anything.  It's more about creating cohesion and avoiding confusion, so the same models (unless they are really painted differently: ahem, penal guard conscripts, etc being the same models but different colours as regular guardsmen) being different units is likely gonna be a bit of a 'meh' from me but I won't say it.  So long as the bases are about right (okay, so long as it's a GW base or what not) then that's cool.  Because sometimes stuff costs a lot, I'm fortunate that I can afford my hobby but a lot of my friends have different priotiries with family and the like, and having a 'try before buy' mentality is great.  A few others have to wait for some pretty long spans of times to get in bits orders on specialist units they're putting together.  So that's fine. 

 

But... WAAC behavior for not the same models?  Seriously?  U been super Cereal m8? Soooooo my Cthonian 'militia', made up of Necromunda Gangers with autorifles and a shotgun or two is Win at all costs" esq when included instead of the chaos cultists for my Thrice Cursed "Black Legion" Sons of Horus?  Thallax as Obliterators (because lets face it, oblits are usually looked upon as an ugly duckling model, and it's not like Thallax are things in 40K), Blood Angels using Scimitar jetbikes with an approrpiate weapons loadout as Attack bikes?  All WAAC?  

 

Mmmkay, sure thing there boyo. 

 

For the record, there are certain things that I'll loft a brow at: and offer my own replacements if I can: I've never come across the pop can drop pod, or pill bottle deff-dread.  Never had to confront it.  That's my line, for the record.  Very random inanimate objects... I will, in the spirit of things, totally accept a cardboard cutout on a properly sized stand in memory of our dear Ork Cardboard Dreads from 2E, which I remember fondly. 

[Panzer]

So long as there's internal consistency and it's vaguely similar, then I'm pretty okay with just about anything: a nice bit of kitbashing, some paint, and I'm pretty permissive and supportive of anything.  It's more about creating cohesion and avoiding confusion, so the same models (unless they are really painted differently: ahem, penal guard conscripts, etc being the same models but different colours as regular guardsmen) being different units is likely gonna be a bit of a 'meh' from me but I won't say it.  So long as the bases are about right (okay, so long as it's a GW base or what not) then that's cool.  Because sometimes stuff costs a lot, I'm fortunate that I can afford my hobby but a lot of my friends have different priotiries with family and the like, and having a 'try before buy' mentality is great.  A few others have to wait for some pretty long spans of times to get in bits orders on specialist units they're putting together.  So that's fine. 

 

But... WAAC behavior for not the same models?  Seriously?  U been super Cereal m8? Soooooo my Cthonian 'militia', made up of Necromunda Gangers with autorifles and a shotgun or two is Win at all costs" esq when included instead of the chaos cultists for my Thrice Cursed "Black Legion" Sons of Horus?  Thallax as Obliterators (because lets face it, oblits are usually looked upon as an ugly duckling model, and it's not like Thallax are things in 40K), Blood Angels using Scimitar jetbikes with an approrpiate weapons loadout as Attack bikes?  All WAAC?  

 

Mmmkay, sure thing there boyo. 

 

For the record, there are certain things that I'll loft a brow at: and offer my own replacements if I can: I've never come across the pop can drop pod, or pill bottle deff-dread.  Never had to confront it.  That's my line, for the record.  Very random inanimate objects... I will, in the spirit of things, totally accept a cardboard cutout on a properly sized stand in memory of our dear Ork Cardboard Dreads from 2E, which I remember fondly. 

 

What you're talking about are counts as, not proxys tho.

[Bryan Blaire]

Rather, I want to envision a setting such as a tournament or pick-up game where you do not know the person you are playing (or their skills, intentions, or level miserable human being-ness). The important factor is that the army you are seeing on the tabletop is how the other player wants it to be. It is the "finished" product so to speak.

 

How far would you go to letting a person proxy or use counts-as models, especially if one type of GW model is being used to represent another?

In the tournament environment, I would expect the tournament rules to address this in their way, and personally I would expect it to be something written and applied as-is, not subjective or made up on the spot. If the organizer didn’t take time to address it, then it would seem as if everything is fair game. If they want to make a ruling after taking my money, then they can provide me said money back if they don’t like my conversions, counts-as, or proxies. A “social contract” doesn’t apply to a tournament, you are taking money from people.

 

In pick-up games, I have been much more accommodating - show me what you want to proxy/counts-as and let’s talk about it a bit. I’ve played against a Biovore standing in for the Nightbringer before, and we agreed that any of my units on the board could see him to fire at him, regardless of location, and he only got cover when he was actually standing behind something, but that’s what it took for me to accept the scyther-Biovore (coincidently, the rest of the army was Orks pretending to be Necrons). I also assume that any proxies be unique visually - don’t really care if these Marines are DE Warriors, the ones with flamers have X same DE weapon, while those Marines are Wyches, but the DE Warrior Marines better be one color, have a unique base marker, something - maybe they are Crimson Fists, while the Wyches are Blood Angels. Give me time to make some notes (or better yet, a copy of your army list), and play consistent to what you said, because I will refer to my notes and call you out (may even go over them with you three/four times to make sure what I’ve written is what you say each time).

 

I’ve always understood proxying to be using kitbashed models in place of the official ones, maybe with some non-standard parts but generally still identifiable as the model it is proxying for.

 

Counts as means taking any model and just saying it’s another, it could bear no actual resemblance to the intended model. Like taking a marine and pretending he’s a genestealer.

 

Like I said though, that’s only my understanding of it, I could be totally wrong.

I’ve always understood it as exactly the other way around, specifically due to the definition of “proxy”. A proxy is by definition someone authorized to act for someone else or something defined to stand in for something else (usually for calculation purposes) and they can be very long term: a power-of-attorney document is a legal contract allowing one person or group to legally proxy in either a defined way or in all fashions for the signatory of the contract that lasts until specifically nullified by termination terms in the contract and acted upon legally (such as fulfilling the terms leading to termination or if one party or the other can legally void the document based on contract terms, typically in writing).

 

So proxies are anything where you are saying “this is actually representing this”.

 

Counts-as, IMO, has always been a sub-set of “proxying” in that you have something armed, converted, etc, to stand in for something else, which likely resembles said official model, but isn’t.

[Vykes]

I wouldn't disagree with your definition, sfPanzer, but that's gonna take a bit to get everyone on the same page.  In the end, is one going to be more heinous than the other if one is permanent and the other temporary? 

 

It's kind of along the same line as joke themed armies: unless I'm in on it, and it's 'That game' once a year or what not, is there a line? 

[Droz_64]

In friendly games, no problem, unless its clear someone isn't planning on buying a model. In tournaments, it's probably a no, unless the models are really close (Like a Captain with a power maul instead of a thunder hammer or something)

[Gederas]

I wouldn't disagree with your definition, sfPanzer, but that's gonna take a bit to get everyone on the same page.  In the end, is one going to be more heinous than the other if one is permanent and the other temporary? 

 

It's kind of along the same line as joke themed armies: unless I'm in on it, and it's 'That game' once a year or what not, is there a line? 

Bryan Blaire has it correct. Counts-As is a specific subset of proxying. For example, my Counts-As Fabius Bile for my World Eaters:

 

It clearly reads as it being a chaos apothecary like Fabius, even though its clearly NOT Fabulous Bill.