Acceptable limts of proxying GW models for other GW models

[Bryan Blaire]

Folks, it honestly doesn’t matter whether we all use the same terms or even definitions for “proxy”, “counts-as”, “conversion”, “kitbash”, etc. The fact really boils down to “It’s not the GW kit as they put the instructions down to represent X unit.” Now, hopefully no one is getting dinged by people for kitbashes, but who knows, some people may be too stickler to even recognize things outside their normal unit and don’t like blinged Vanguard Vet running/jumping legs mixed into “basic” Assault Squads because it confuses them as to what unit it is.

 

There’s really no right or wrong way to do or say this, as there are no 40K written rules for it any more. No longer does a Codex or rulebook say, as in some 4th Edition ones, “To represent the various Masters of the Successors, you can use the models and rules for the named ... characters ... - you just need to come up with new names. This is a perfect way to personalize your army - just make sure your opponent knows what everything counts as.” There aren’t rules for proxies, there aren’t rules for conversions (except when they bring out the custom Land Raider or Looted Vehicle rules in Chapter Approved), etc. Even WYSIWYG is no longer a rule in the books (it’s in the spirit of fair play, but could also inhibit some creativity).

 

So let’s not get bogged down in the actual names, because honestly, it doesn’t matter what you call them. You could make up a word to mean “unofficial stand-in” if you wanted, and as long as folks got it, it wouldn’t matter. It really comes down to “How do you feel regarding playing 40K with others who may not use the official models for every unit in the game?”

[Rik Lightstar]

For me, the first question is always "is it immediately apparent what they are meant to be?" to give some examples from my own collections.

 

-I've used Sanguinary Guard to convert Codex Marines Honour Guard, they have Power Weapons and Bolters with ornate armour. It's clear from the moment they leave the case that they're not standard marines and there's never been an issue.

 

-I've used Grey Knight parts to make Librarian Bikers, they have Force Weapons, Psychic Hoods and Blue Armour. Again, no issues.

 

-For my Vindicare Assassin, I have a Converted Reiver with a large Sniper Rifle. However this is a bit less obvious, so I have the official model (painted) in my case too in case anyone has an issue.

 

The furthest I'd go with Proxies is to test different weapon loadouts, for example using Grav as Melta, or a Landraider Redeemer as a Crusader.

 

Rik

[TheTrans]

Is turning into a bit of an echo chamber but I'll put my 2 cents in haha.

I'm a massive fan of converting, modeling etc. 

I think there is some core components of what constitutes what term. 

To me Conversions and 'Counts As' generally are the same thing. Looks to me 'counts as' is when you've modeled something that isn't X, to be X, in generally a thematic, and non dickish way. 

So for instance, I use Primaris marines as a base for truescale marines, swap out their shoulder pads, heads and bolters, to normal marine equivalents, boom easy big normal marines. Now given the swap out of parts, I think they are, upon inspection, quite different to primaris, but at the same time I wouldn't run primaris in the same army as them. 

I'm currently working on a 'counts-as' Kroot Killteam, using the Tyranid rules. Kroot are a little limited in their model choices but I have the following line up:

Termagant w/ Fleshborer = Kroot w/ Kroot Carbine (shortened kroot rifle to make it different), the model stats all line up relatively well with each other.
Hormagaunt = Kroot Hount, again, a quick model with only its natural claws, stat lines again match up.
Tyranid Warrior w/ Bone Swords + Death Spitter: Knarloc Rider w/ 'Kroot Sabres' and a modified pulse carbine(short range, but S5), the 3 wounds and higher tougness are there to show the model is mounted etc.

I'm using straight Blood Angels rules for my Black Templars as I think they work better. All the models are wysiwyg for the BA dex, just imagine these black marines are red. Done, easy, got no worries.

That is a counts-as 'army' as opposed to a conversion based army, but if done in spirit like that (and peoples opinions differ) I think its fine. 

Proxying to me comes in two different flavours.

There is the 'oh trying this out before I commit to a build for the upcoming tournament, so flamers=plasma, or this squad has this and this", thats fine for a couple of games between mates or done in a reasonable matter. We've all been there trying things out or getting stuff finished as long as this isn't abused it is fine IMHO.

The big issue is (and I saw this a few years ago at a tournament  (6th ed) and I was pretty dirty about it).
I was running a Tyrant's Legion army, I took Ultramarine tactics for for the Marine contingent(being useful and generic), took tigirius as my codicer marchuk. Everything was WYSIWYG. I was using the guard codex (no duh) as the human contingent of the force, again all WYSIWYG.

My opponent was running actually a surprisingly similar list to mine, but less thematically (I had a big blob of guard as an auxilia squad, he had kitted vets etc), but the biggest issue I had was he was running ultramarine tactics, with a librarian as tigirius (so same as me, no judgement) but his marines where a variety of squads, mainly salamanders, some undercoated, same as the some of his guard squads. Again, I feel this is the line between a proxy-army and a 'counts as' army, I may in some of your eyes be just as bad as him or I may not, but two me, it was two sides of the same coin..just one taking the piss and one making do...

Any way, my biggest issue was a bloke running hodge-podge CSM bikers as White Scars for their excellent trait back then and also so he could bring the Helios Defense missles... apparently he was doing this 'to prove a point' but aside from proving the point of how big a douche he is, I have NFI what it was..

So TL:DR
Conversion - something similar into something different (e.g. Converted Primaris into truescale marines, converted tyranid warriors into hiveguard given 'core' components ticked off etc)= AOK
Counts-As - Fullscale swapping of something, to maybe get access to rules/modeling opportunites that you wouldn't have access to otherwise (eg Blood Angels = Black Templars all WYSIWYG, Kroot as Tyranids due to lack of full Kroot Rules etc= AOK if done in the 'spirit' of the game, very easy to abuse

Proxying (testing) - no worries at all, we all test, have at it! (eg flamers as plasma across whole army for testing) = AOK 
Proxying (wholesale) - using things straight from one codex to the other just for better rules access not great and only to the benefit of you (espcially with lazily modelled things) (eg clearly using the wrong models to get benefit to better rules in a hodge podge manner) = Worst Play, honestly doesn't get the point of TTG IMHO

Anyway I'm sure we all have different thoughts on this, but just how I see it. :) 

[Vogon]

I try to use WYSIWYG as much as possible with one exception.

 

My 40K Iron Warriors Army uses a 30K Iron Circle robot as a Daemon Prince of Khorne with the Axe, warp bolter and Flesh Metal exoskeleton.

 

It looks cool, the rules seem about right and fits the army well. I make it clear at the start of the game that is what it is and I’ve never had any issues in pick up games, tournaments or friendly games.

 

Cheers

 

Vogon

[Indefragable]

I try to use WYSIWYG as much as possible with one exception.

 

My 40K Iron Warriors Army uses a 30K Iron Circle robot as a Daemon Prince of Khorne with the Axe, warp bolter and Flesh Metal exoskeleton.

 

It looks cool, the rules seem about right and fits the army well. I make it clear at the start of the game that is what it is and I’ve never had any issues in pick up games, tournaments or friendly games.

 

Cheers

 

Vogon

Say...that’s a very good idea <ninja eyes> and in no way, shape, or form related to one of the inspirational ides for this very topic...

[Schurge]

I run all sorts of things as cultists... Genestealer cultists, the ad-mec from Kill Team starter box, actual cultists, guardsmen, etc. I add some skulls and what not but none of the weapons are accurate but to be fair I run them all with, no special weapons or mixed setups. In Kill Team I proxy heavy weapons on the gene stealer cultists for heavy stubbers (best painted cultists I have).

 

I often have my squad leaders equipped with a different weapon than what is modeled eg power fist for a sword or chain axe plus chain sword for chain sword + bolt pistol but it is always uniform across squads.

 

Daemon Prince is always proxying for something other then what it is modelled as, but I recently started converting the old school resin prince to an axe prince w/ wings and scyla anfangrim for a prince with dual talons and wings so I will have one for every setup.

 

My Dark Apostle is the resin apostle with 6 writhing tentacles for arms, obviously it counts as Power Maul (or in Kill Team a power sword).

 

When plastic sisters come out I plan to convert Bolter Sisters to khornate Bolter Sisters. I also may convert sisters of silence at some point and run them as berserkers for variety.

 

I convert my vehicles to look possessed so the weapon loadouts aren't always accurate. However I always run them all the same loadout.

 

I haven't had any complaints. I'm curious if anyone here would object.

[Portman]

It's been a really interesting thread to read this - and has made me think about my own army set up. MOST of my army is 2nd edition Space Marine or earlier - technically still legal according to the codex but I am wondering about my old style Space Crusade Dreadnought.

 

I could technically state that it was a dreadnought, equipped with an assault cannon and missile launcher (to replace the powerfist/storm bolter) and that the twin bolters on the undersides were the smoke launchers. Now that would BE legal, but it's not an official GW miniature. 

 

What would be your thoughts on that?

[Vykes]

Might be worth noting, Frater Portman, that you could always use the Space Crusade dread with the FW entry for the Deredeo as that's kinda what the Space Crusade dread evolved into. -laughs- 

[Gederas]

When plastic sisters come out I plan to convert Bolter Sisters to khornate Bolter Sisters. I also may convert sisters of silence at some point and run them as berserkers for variety.

Glad to know I'm not the only one thinking of doing that :lol: