Deathwatch + Imperial Knights?

[BloodWolves]

Hey all, I'm looking for some ideas about a good way to field a Deathwatch army with Imperial Knights. I would like a

- IK Crusader w/ ISML

- Gallant or Errant w/ **ML

- Helverin

 

I guess what would be the best way to fill out the rest with deathwatch?

 

Thanks all!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Why not take a Castellan ?

[Lysere]

Honestly Deathwatch and Knights are a terrible tag team because both armies can burn a lot of command points but are expensive enough to make it hard to fit allies.

 

If you are bent on it though keep the veterans cheap and maybe use Rhinos to get them around. Something like three bolter or Storm bolter squads of 5 veterans and maybe give one a heavy weapon, two rhinos, and a couple HQs of your choice.

 

 

Why not take a Castellan ?

 

 

Honestly the Castellan would be a very poor choice to Ally in with deathwatch unless you also brought the loyal 32, and now that CP regen has been nerfed even that still wouldn't be a great combo. The Crusader is cheap enough to leave a bit more room for other stuff while still having access to heavy enough guns to make up for the Deathwatches weakness. 

 

[Prot]

I don’t think it’s a terrible idea. Someone here has had good, competitive success with using a Gallant. I personally wouldn’t go beyond Helverins because they fill a niche and are just solid, cost efficient units but they of course don’t get the DW Keyword.

 

This is where I like the Dreadnoughts better.... the FW choices get the keyword so you can mimic the role while still getting great Strat advantages.

[LucidNinja]

I ran 2 armigers with a gallant along side my celestial lions. With house Terran and landstrider they are very fast and can hit hard. Not sure I would run them with deathwatch though as you are already wanting to be close enough to the enemy and would be missing out on a lot of options to compensate.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

Honestly Deathwatch and Knights are a terrible tag team because both armies can burn a lot of command points but are expensive enough to make it hard to fit allies.

 

If you are bent on it though keep the veterans cheap and maybe use Rhinos to get them around. Something like three bolter or Storm bolter squads of 5 veterans and maybe give one a heavy weapon, two rhinos, and a couple HQs of your choice.

 

 

Why not take a Castellan ?

 

 

Honestly the Castellan would be a very poor choice to Ally in with deathwatch unless you also brought the loyal 32, and now that CP regen has been nerfed even that still wouldn't be a great combo. The Crusader is cheap enough to leave a bit more room for other stuff while still having access to heavy enough guns to make up for the Deathwatches weakness. 

 

 

 

I have to pretty much disagree with everything you said... DW lack good anti-armor and the Castellan offers this in spades. Also of all the Knights the Castellan needs the least CP support to fulfill its primary role.

[Lysere]

 

 

Honestly Deathwatch and Knights are a terrible tag team because both armies can burn a lot of command points but are expensive enough to make it hard to fit allies.

 

If you are bent on it though keep the veterans cheap and maybe use Rhinos to get them around. Something like three bolter or Storm bolter squads of 5 veterans and maybe give one a heavy weapon, two rhinos, and a couple HQs of your choice.

 

 

Why not take a Castellan ?

 

 

Honestly the Castellan would be a very poor choice to Ally in with deathwatch unless you also brought the loyal 32, and now that CP regen has been nerfed even that still wouldn't be a great combo. The Crusader is cheap enough to leave a bit more room for other stuff while still having access to heavy enough guns to make up for the Deathwatches weakness. 

 

 

 

I have to pretty much disagree with everything you said... DW lack good anti-armor and the Castellan offers this in spades. Also of all the Knights the Castellan needs the least CP support to fulfill its primary role.

 

 

A Crusader or Gallant is noticeably cheaper, can provide similar support, and require absolutely nothing to do their job. Any house you want and the relic and warlord trait are entirely optional.

 

A Castellan has one decent weapon that is overkill against anything that isn't a super heavy and a plasma cannon that is actually worse than the RFBC unless you run a mechanicus house and take the relic version. That's one CP down the drain already, another to take the 4+ invuln because it is now your only strong anti armor on the table and is more expensive to boost the invuln compared to other knights.

 

A Thermal cannon crusader run as an imperial household could be outflanked for 3 CP denying your opponent any shots against it until turn 2 when facing lots of big guns, or placed on the table if they lack strong anti armor. A gallant is a lone wrecking ball that can deal with armor just fine and will be a first turn threat for anything deployed forward. Two or more gallants and you could use Terryn for some serious turn one pressure.

 

I've been meaning to write a longer post sharing my thoughts on knights as a whole but the Castellan (which is all but confirmed to be getting a points hike in Chapter approved) is the perfect example of the difference between imperial houses and mechanicus houses in my mind. It has one job, it does it well, but when that job isn't needed it's almost useless. No room for creative strategies and the weakness that all knights share against hordes is even worse with the Castellan.

 

The only reason the Castellan was so strong before was because a lone Castellan being fed CP from other detachments can maximize every one of it's strengths while the rest of the army makes up for the weaknesses. Even if CP regen hadn't been touched the Deathwatch lack the CP to feed such a knight and a lone knight provides no CP.

 

If you absolutely wanted a Castellan with deathwatch Raven would be a terrible option simply due to needing too many CP to use the stratagem. If you take two helverins with it you could get some decent mileage with mechanicus although again, not many CP to burn, or you could go for Hawkshroud to use their warlord trait to get a similar level of firepower as the relic plasma while saving command points on machine spirit resurgent. If you need the durability more you could always take the invuln instead, and you also get access to a relic to protect against psychic mortal wounds.

 

While I much prefer the Valiant to the Castellan it does nothing that the Deathwatch can't already do just fine. Similarly the warden and paladin overlap with the deathwatch or are weaker than alternatives even within the knight codex for the role. An Errant, Gallant, or Thermal cannon Crusader would be my preferred choices as all three provide anti armor while being balanced enough to not need further investment if you end up tight on CP. A crusader and a gallant is personally my preferred core for any knight list with the third knight being based on what I feel is most necessary to the list.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I play a lot against Knights. The Valiant is a worse matchup for me because of the super flamer but I have seen the Castellan do the most damage to other armies on a regular basis plus it is still the Knight of choice for the top tier lists. Also it actually needs to use stratagems the least of any Knight IMO .

[Prot]

Honestly I stopped playing my Castellan and ebayed it painted even though it fit right in with my Raven House Knights that I already had. It sold pretty quick, and I know why. It's something that I felt if my opponent wasn't planning for it, I could take out (most) of their warlords, and wipe most of the armour. I felt dirty playing it. That's just me.

[Lemondish]

The Castellan is a one trick pony that eats CP due to the target that's on its back starting from the moment it's pulled out of the model carrier and placed on the table. It can definitely do what you want it to, but it is most effective when you can burn through a large amount of CP to boost its capabilities deep into the game. 

 

Deathwatch are also CP hungry, so they don't mix well on that front. Interestingly, a decent number of the more recent high placing tournament lists prior to the FAQ change on regen were based around the Knight/AM/BA build, but replaced Knights with DW instead of including DW in addition to the Knights. 

 

My favourite part about facing a Castellan is when I hit it with Tempest's Wrath and Aversion from my allied Libbies and then watch it shoot like an Ork. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You don't really have to burn a lot of CP on DW.

[LucidNinja]

You don't need to but it certainly makes them more effective. Teleporting and +1 to wound are staples then some hellfire or tempest shells and a reroll or 2 and there goes a battalion worth of CP...

I will try a game with deathwatch and my wrecking ball knights at some point but I'm going to assume they will be a bit lack luster.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I said a lot of CP.

 

I play a combo of AC-BA-DW... they all have some amazing strats. You obviously can’t use all of them and sometimes just using a reroll at the right time can win a game. I think if you need strats to win well you’re doing something wrong.

[Lemondish]

You don't really have to burn a lot of CP on DW.

You do if you want them to be more than just slightly upgraded marines with obsec.

 

+1 to wound every turn is 2 CP, for one unit type. You can realistically use two, reliably with effect, per turn. You should also be using Hellfire and Tempest Shell since it's an amazingly reliable source of MW. Then there's the admittedly situational anti xenos options. Every marine army gets htc which is clutch almost every game for me given how much more free movement you get past a screen with it.

 

Only in death is amazing, especially against big targets on beefy characters. Then there's the expensive Teleportarium and Relic options pregame. Then you'll want the situational Clavis available, along with command rerolls.

 

If you want to get the most out of DW, you should be sinking CP into them early. They're a fantastic alpha strike force.

 

The same is true for Knights, though. You want that Castellan doing everything it can full tilt for as long as it can. If you find you don't need to in order to pull out a win in your local meta, then keep on rocking with what you have. If it works for you, don't even bother fixing it. I'm just sharing my experience in a hyper competitive scene with people that have far too much disposable income if you know what I mean ;)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

We all have our methods how we use our command points. I have two Blood Angels Smash Captains - their role is to take down big threats such as Knights and they can easily burn through most of my command points. If I’m not playing against Knights then I obviously have more command points I can use for my Custodes and Deathwatch... Knights are still very popular though in my meta, oh well.

 

My Deathwatch Battalion is designed to quickly clear enemy chaff which they do really well due to storm bolters and Hellfire SIA. So I think it really comes down to your army and how you designed it to deal with your own meta. I do always use the teleportarium strategem to deep strike my Primaris squad so I can get them into an optimal position and protect them from alpha strikes.

 

Sure Deathwatch have really solid strategems but for my army my command points are often better spent on my other two detachments.

[Lemondish]

We all have our methods how we use our command points. I have two Blood Angels Smash Captains - their role is to take down big threats such as Knights and they can easily burn through most of my command points. If I’m not playing against Knights then I obviously have more command points I can use for my Custodes and Deathwatch... Knights are still very popular though in my meta, oh well.

 

My Deathwatch Battalion is designed to quickly clear enemy chaff which they do really well due to storm bolters and Hellfire SIA. So I think it really comes down to your army and how you designed it to deal with your own meta. I do always use the teleportarium strategem to deep strike my Primaris squad so I can get them into an optimal position and protect them from alpha strikes.

 

Sure Deathwatch have really solid strategems but for my army my command points are often better spent on my other two detachments.

That's quite the CP hungry list lol

[Mobius0288]

Hey all, I'm looking for some ideas about a good way to field a Deathwatch army with Imperial Knights. I would like a

- IK Crusader w/ ISML

- Gallant or Errant w/ **ML

- Helverin

 

I guess what would be the best way to fill out the rest with deathwatch?

 

Thanks all!

 

Everyone else had some valid points to consider. Your meta has a lot of play in what you should bring as well.

 

Your Knights eat up about 1000 points. If you bring DW plus those 3 specific knights, I would highly suggest a battalion with storm bolters. Left over points should go to transports for your infantry unless you plan to burn some CPs to deep strike them. Your knights are going to be the bulk of your anti-vehicle so keep that in mind. Your DW peeps need to be as mobile as possible, capturing objectives and dealing with other infantry.

 

A bare-bones battalion with vehicle protection will run at least 650 pts (Capt w/ jump pack, Libby, 3x SB vets, 1x razorback, 1x rhino). You can sacrifice what you need in there to make it work but I would encourage you to look outside of deathwatch if you plan to run a 1500 pt list.

 

Also you have to think real hard about how many CPs you are spending before turn 1. Who's your warlord? Who is getting the free relic? Are you spending CPs to get more relics? Do you want to spend CPs to deep strike deathwatch units? A battalion ensures you 5 CPs and 3 for being battleforged, but your Knight detachment doesn't give you any unless you have at least 3 big knights in it. Knowing that, you'll want to consider if you want to drop a knight to get some extra points back towards your allied detachment of choice.

 

It's a tough balance for sure.

[vigitant]

A friend and I are currently working on builds using Deathwatch and Grey Knights respectively combined with an Acastus Knight Porphyrion.

 

It's expensive at 900, but it has some distinct advantages over the castellan(especially if its across the table from one.  the castellan loses that fight)

 

It's all the AT you'll ever need.  pick up 2.x tanks a turn, every turn.

a base 2+ BS. 

30 damn wounds.

Tough 9.  take away a quarter of lascannon wounds.  take away a third of S8 wounds.

It's not a castellan.  only 1 CP/turn for the strat.  with trait, your talking 3++ every turn you get shot at.

 

It's biggest weakness is that its only one model, and thus cant play on objectives very well.  And it cant do anti infantry.

Deathwatch has tanky troops that can murder infantry by the bucketload.

 

Nothing is swatting down 30 T9 3++ wounds.  And 4d3 shots doing 6 dmg a piece is gonna shred armor.