Character discussion

[logan_grimnar18]

been on the outside looking in for a while. finally decided to jump into 8th. 

 

I haven't seen many lists that use Krom or Arjac (both mainstays for me because their models are cool). Krom seems like a decent upgrade from the baseline wolf lord, and Arjac's damage reducing shield seems very good. Are people not using them because they can't take jump packs? 

 

thanks pack!

[PeteySödes]

I know people are using Arjak a decent amount with certain builds. Your likely pretty spot on though about Kroms lack of JP.

 

I also find Kroms -1 Ld pretty lackluster. Thats less his fault though and more about how worthless Ld tactics are unless its against us basically.

[Kallas]

Arjac has a decent place, as he has a good force multiplier (Champion of the Kingsguard and Thane to the High King) and he has good damage output himself (Thunder Hammer vs half of the important things), as well as a good resilience (the -1D is really good: ask any Vanilla SM player what they think of the Shield Eternal, which is better but very similar).

 

Krom, on the other hand, is pretty basic. Compared to a regular Wolf Lord with a Frost Axe he has +1A, his Axe does d3D and he has a :cuss Ld debuff. That's it! Honestly, he's so vanilla, I'm suprised they didn't make him a Black Templar  Essentially, you can make a better Krom by taking a regular Wolf Lord, giving it a Frost Axe/Black Death and then literally anything else. The Ld debuff is laughable, even by Ld debuff standards, so just ignore it; he's locked into a Bolt Pistol (ie, crap), and doesn't have the option for a better melee weapon (eg, Thunder Hammer), and unlike some of the other Characters who have basically standard gear he doesn't actually bring anything beyond those things; and he can't have Indomitus/Cataphractii Armour or a Jump Pack.

 

Arjac: Fine, good if you maximise his buffs.

Krom: Worthless.

[logan_grimnar18]

What about the rest of them? Canis, Harold, Ulrik?

[Kallas]

What about the rest of them? Canis, Harold, Ulrik?

 

Canis has some good, unique use, much like Arjac he has a unique attack buffing aura.

 

Harold is a bit more Krom, so is probably easier to leave at home. But if you're running a bunch of Fenrisian Wolves, Canis and Thunderwolves he'd probably fit in fine, as he's got probably just enough going for him to be worth it over a regular TWC Wolf Lord.

 

Ulrik: he's cool. Wolf Priests don't get much variation normally, so his set wargear isn't as much of an issue. His improved Ld aura is handy (9" over 6") but not a huge issue unless you're running big blocks of Blood Claws (which is certainly viable). His Slayer's Oath is his money maker ability, and it is unique and good - if you can get it to trigger. It's basically a bonus Saga of the Beastslayer for the Fight Phase, that can stack with SotB and isn't restricted to Monsters/Vehicles only! That's pretty awesome. If you were to run him, I would assume that he'd want his own personal ride (probably a Rhino/Razorback with some melee dudes nearby: maybe a Twin AC RB with 5 Wolf Guard with TH/SS or Wolf Claws?) to let him get to grips with enemy characters ASAP. If gunning for a Monster/tough character, don't forget about the Seeking a Saga stratagem for rerolls to wound, and if they're especially tough make sure you soften them up first (but try to avoid killing them!)

[Cpt.Danjou]

I almost never use any characters, except Bjorn, so I can not give any advice about them, but I am wondering about Grimnar and Njal? Are the worth their points?  

 

Cpt Danjou

[jerrys]

I thought that maybe Grimnar on his sleigh might be interesting riding up behind a bunch of e.g. assault cannon razorbacks, giving them all rerolls to hit with shooting. But I haven't tried it yet to see if that actually works.

(I figured him and a JP WGBL to give some wound rerolls, and a JP rune priest to give some defensive buffs to everybody. Maybe a JP wolf priest to heal Grimnar? Maybe an LRC full of wulfen or something going with the razorbacks ... they could all rush up and try to get the guys into combat (maybe with the JP HQs jumping over the razorbacks and supported by disembarking blood claws or something). People could shoot the sleigh, but it's reasonably tough and in any case then they're not targeting the other stuff...I don't know, maybe it would work?)

[Starskysdad]

I take Njal sometimes if I am using terminators as he is only a couple points more than a term RP with psychic hood and runic armour.

[Ratherdashing]

My experience with Logan is that, being a Chapter Master, people either make the mistake of expecting him to be some unstoppable force in close combat and dedicating way too much firepower to destroy him (ie distraction carnifex); or of expecting him to be a generic Captain Buffbot and letting him outlive his squad, make it to combat, and wreck more face than they expected. This might just be my meta, but the only failures he has is when he gets stranded somewhere where he can't do anything useful. He almost never seems to die too fast and never fails to work magic/havok wherever he ends up hitting the fray. (This is foot version, not Santa)

 

 

EDIT: And Arjac is never not tons of fun.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Krom does OK as a budget character, unlike the over inflated Ragnar or Sleigh Grimnar. Compared to a similar wolf lord, he is only 6 points higher, which is what you pay for

 

1) D3 damage

2) +1 attack

3) Leadership debuff

 

For a thematic list, he is no slouch and can still do everything a regular wolf lord does for a very small premium.

 

Ragnar on the other hand you are paying more than 50 points from a similar armed wolf lord. For 50 points,

1) 2 Damage

2) +1 attack

3) AP-4

4) extra attacks at Heroic Intervention

5) for paying more points, get 2 wolves, further increasing the 50 point premium.

 

That being said, Ragnar is no slouch either and can still do everything a wolf lord better. He is just a bit inefficient.

 

Overall, using Krom won't cost you much in terms of points and efficiency. 

 

Njal is actually pretty decent as a psyker but so far I use him in power armour rather than termi. Casting 2 powers and denying 2 is good. Just don't use him as warlord as his trait is rather lacklustre.

[Karhedron]

Njal (either in PA or TDA) is pretty good. For a few points more than a regular RP you get some good bonuses. The lack of JP is sad but expected so either give him a ride or a bodyguard.

[Kasper_Hawser]

A question to everyone regarding new codex: what do you think of the character emphasis? Do you think it is worth pouring points into CC tooled characters so that they can either Heroic intervention or hit hard? As opposed to having another Grey Hunter squad or razorback?

 

For me I'm not quite sold on investing in CC characters yet. So far my opponents have skirted around my characters, or simply declared charge against my characters so that they can continue hitting my characters when they do HI (assuming they are within 12" range). And I find that my characters still do not have durability unless I fit with storm shields, which I tend to not use in favor of hitting power (thunder hammers and power fists). And in some cases, those who invest in sniper scouts have a field day taking pot shots at my characters and making them afraid to pop their heads out of cover.

 

I dunno, once again as the nearly lone Space Wolf player in my meta, I'm not seeing enough good examples for me to take advantage of our chapter tactics beyond the 2+ to hit with chainswords on the charge.

[PeteySödes]

It’s fun and fluffy but and half decent player is going to play around the HI.

 

I’m not spamming characters, I tried in my first game post codex for fun but it’s just kinda meh. I’m taking my RPs again for the first time since 8th so that’s great but I’m still pretty much in the camp of boots on the ground vs a few smashy guys.

 

As you said though it’s still meta dependent I suppose.

[DanPesci]

My current experience with named characters:

 

- Bjorn  = no brainer, take.

 

- Njal = A good defensive RP, keep him in your lines, deny smites, and actually have a good chance of getting stormcaller off due to his +1.

 

I think the one thing letting him down more than anything is our pretty lackluster/often highly situational psychic deck (living lightning and jaws can be utterly useless for example). 

 

- Arjac = Great fun, 8 pts more than a regular WGBL with TDA/TH/SS, has same reroll wounds buff, has +1 attack buff to wolf guard/twc, is S10, rerolls hits against characters, always hitting on 2s. Can throw thunder hammer. Note - i always take wolf guard for fluff reasons, so for me hes an auto include.

[PeteySödes]

I dont think lightning is that bad. Typically i take either storm caller or wrath and have for sure taken lightning to pair with it. It's not bad to smite something then lightning it where it can jump.

[Kasper_Hawser]

As Pesci mention, it's not that our psychic deck is bad, it's just ... I dunno plain compared to other decks. Personally I think the worst is either Jaws or Murderous hurricane. Living Lightning is quite OK, just not reliable...

 

I'm going to sound like a broken record, but our codex is balanced with no cheese like Shield Eternal, Might of Heroes spell, Warp time spell, every spell in Eldar codex, no overwatch helmet relics, etc. Everything we have, we really have to work to figure out the synergy....

 

... which is why I ask if anyone has figured out a strategy using our characters 6" heroic intervention.

[Kallas]

As Pesci mention, it's not that our psychic deck is bad, it's just ... I dunno plain compared to other decks. Personally I think the worst is either Jaws or Murderous hurricane. Living Lightning is quite OK, just not reliable...

 

I'm going to sound like a broken record, but our codex is balanced with no cheese like Shield Eternal, Might of Heroes spell, Warp time spell, every spell in Eldar codex, no overwatch helmet relics, etc. Everything we have, we really have to work to figure out the synergy....

 

... which is why I ask if anyone has figured out a strategy using our characters 6" heroic intervention.

Jaws is ok: if you're playing with the ability to choose your powers at the start of each battle (ie, the base rules, but some events might stipulate otherwise!) then Jaws is useful vs hard but slow moving targets (eg, I used it when I was facing Death Guard, as it deals more damage on average vs their slow, Mv4" Terminators) - a high roll on the 2d6 could be a lot of damage!

 

Murderous Hurricane is awful. Anything that functions on 6s only is pretty terrible. Sure, it scale with unit size, but it's averaging 1MW per 6 models. Smiting will generally be a better option, although at least MH (and Jaws) can target what you want.

 

I think our synergy is fine, just nothing particularly crazy like the top tier Codexes.

 

Heroic Intervention. It's a great deterrent: with good positioning you can force your opponent into some tough decisions - do they charge your front squad (say Blood Claws or Grey Hunters) and have the characters Intervene? Or do they avoid the charge and leave your other units alone. Further, it's good for getting your characters some extra distance upfield, especially if they're hunting particular targets - remember, you don't actually have to move into 1" of an enemy unit when you Intervene!

 

Basically, if you can get your characters into a position where they're facing off against melee threats that they want to engage (eg, Thunder Hammer Wolf Lord hunting Monsters/Vehicles) then melee threats will have to consider the risk. I've played quite a few games with Wolves now, and the increased HI range is very damn useful.

 

A few useful tips for HI:

• Armour of Russ, supporting a decent melee threat, is possibly the best charge deterrent there is. If something dangerous, but not immensely resilient, wants to come in on you, then it can be easily forced to fight last while you smash them with your heavy hitters first. A character deathball is damn effective at this.
• If you charge an enemy unit with Mv6" or less, then try to get base-to-base with them during your Pile In/Consolidation moves. Doing so means that that unit cannot escape: if they Fall Back they cannot Advance, which means (barring some other intervention, such as Warptime/Quicken) that you'll be able to Intervene back into them during their Charge Phase (unless you get shot up, of course!) - and you can still use it to slingshot your character elsewhere, such as if there's a better target laterally use the HI movement to edge closer, as even an extra inch or two can help secure a good charge later.
• Also remember that a character can use Heroic Intervention even if they're already within 1" of an enemy! That's a key point: similar to slingshotting without engaging, this can allow a character to get to grips with something else. If an enemy chaff unit if protecting a more important unit (a character, a good shooting unit, etc) and they give you the opportunity to move (ie, they didn't put your character into base-to-base - even better if they only engaged you at the maximum 1") then use that free movement to get around (if possible; they may have closed ranks, making it not possible to move past their models) and try to strike at that better target. If you can't get to them with just the HI, you may still be able to reach if enough of the screening unit die to your attacks - if you've got the CP to spare, you can always use Honour the Chapter to get some swings in!
• Similar to the above, you can use HI to possibly put a dangerous shooting unit in to melee, giving other units the opportunity to dogpile them without overwatch in your turn.
• It's best used with Jump Pack characters, for some obvious reasons: they're our most mobile characters (ie, they can get into a good HI position best); they are the joint smallest (Terminators and Thunderwolf characters have bigger bases, meaning they're harder to fit through spaces); and they're not too expensive. FLY doesn't affect their HI movement anymore, which is a bit of a shame, but Jump Packs are still best for getting the positioning right.
• Make sure you have a good presence of non-characters around, in general. Characters out on their own will get shot up pretty quickly, even if they're packing Storm Shields, and in a cluster of only characters your opponent can pick out which ones they need to kill the most first - eg, a Rune Priest who's buffing with Storm Caller/CbtS will be a high priority target.

There's a lot of use in Heroic Intervention, but the regular 3" makes it harder to get a good benefit out of. 6" is leaps and bounds better and really gives you some flexibility in use.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

Heroic Intervention. It's a great deterrent: with good positioning you can force your opponent into some tough decisions - do they charge your front squad (say Blood Claws or Grey Hunters) and have the characters Intervene? Or do they avoid the charge and leave your other units alone. Further, it's good for getting your characters some extra distance upfield, especially if they're hunting particular targets - remember, you don't actually have to move into 1" of an enemy unit when you Intervene!

 

Basically, if you can get your characters into a position where they're facing off against melee threats that they want to engage (eg, Thunder Hammer Wolf Lord hunting Monsters/Vehicles) then melee threats will have to consider the risk. I've played quite a few games with Wolves now, and the increased HI range is very damn useful.

 

A few useful tips for HI:

• Armour of Russ, supporting a decent melee threat, is possibly the best charge deterrent there is. If something dangerous, but not immensely resilient, wants to come in on you, then it can be easily forced to fight last while you smash them with your heavy hitters first. A character deathball is damn effective at this.
• If you charge an enemy unit with Mv6" or less, then try to get base-to-base with them during your Pile In/Consolidation moves. Doing so means that that unit cannot escape: if they Fall Back they cannot Advance, which means (barring some other intervention, such as Warptime/Quicken) that you'll be able to Intervene back into them during their Charge Phase (unless you get shot up, of course!) - and you can still use it to slingshot your character elsewhere, such as if there's a better target laterally use the HI movement to edge closer, as even an extra inch or two can help secure a good charge later.
• Also remember that a character can use Heroic Intervention even if they're already within 1" of an enemy! That's a key point: similar to slingshotting without engaging, this can allow a character to get to grips with something else. If an enemy chaff unit if protecting a more important unit (a character, a good shooting unit, etc) and they give you the opportunity to move (ie, they didn't put your character into base-to-base - even better if they only engaged you at the maximum 1") then use that free movement to get around (if possible; they may have closed ranks, making it not possible to move past their models) and try to strike at that better target. If you can't get to them with just the HI, you may still be able to reach if enough of the screening unit die to your attacks - if you've got the CP to spare, you can always use Honour the Chapter to get some swings in!
• Similar to the above, you can use HI to possibly put a dangerous shooting unit in to melee, giving other units the opportunity to dogpile them without overwatch in your turn.
• It's best used with Jump Pack characters, for some obvious reasons: they're our most mobile characters (ie, they can get into a good HI position best); they are the joint smallest (Terminators and Thunderwolf characters have bigger bases, meaning they're harder to fit through spaces); and they're not too expensive. FLY doesn't affect their HI movement anymore, which is a bit of a shame, but Jump Packs are still best for getting the positioning right.
• Make sure you have a good presence of non-characters around, in general. Characters out on their own will get shot up pretty quickly, even if they're packing Storm Shields, and in a cluster of only characters your opponent can pick out which ones they need to kill the most first - eg, a Rune Priest who's buffing with Storm Caller/CbtS will be a high priority target.

There's a lot of use in Heroic Intervention, but the regular 3" makes it harder to get a good benefit out of. 6" is leaps and bounds better and really gives you some flexibility in use.

 

 

A lot to digest but thanks a lot for your encouragement, sound advice and examples to boot. The 6" HI use in situations like when the character is already in combat has been highlighted to me before but for some reason, my brain doesn't process that well as it doesn't make sense to me, never mind what the rules say. I'll try to digest your advice and work it into my general plan of my army (regardless of which list I actually try out). I've used Armour of Russ frequently since Day 1, but unfortunately, even if I do shut the person down to hit last, Space Marine smash captains will still have shield eternal or otherwise 3++s. 

 

What I can think of now is using Arjac to deepstrike, just behind my guys to bait, as you say, the others to charge. If they don't, then either my GH or Arjac lives to next round, if they do,  then it's hammer time for Arjac. Will think more about this.

[Kallas]

Another thing I just thought of for HI uses, specifically against particularly hard hitting characters: if you can HI into base to base contact then they will be unable to move further with Pile In/Consolidation moves while in that situation.

 

For the Smash Captain example, if you can HI with a similarly tough character (ie, Storm Shield), then they can prevent them from going on a much bigger rampage.

 

As an example: my pre-League game vs Tau, my Wolf Lord with SotBeastslayer charged into two Hammerheads, but only reached one with his initial charge move. He then used Honour the Chapter to enable him to kill both vehicles and consolidate in to some more Tau stuff.

 

HI could allow you to prevent that kind of additional movement to keep other units safe - it depends on the situation, of course, as the character that intervenes might be needed elsewhere/alive; but it's worth keeping in mind.

 

The Fight Phase has the most tactical/practical depth in 40K, and movement in general is incredibly important. While I totally get that you might not have it ingrained that these things are available, I think they're key to getting the best use out of our Wolves. So practice, practice, practice!

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

The Fight Phase has the most tactical/practical depth in 40K, and movement in general is incredibly important. While I totally get that you might not have it ingrained that these things are available, I think they're key to getting the best use out of our Wolves. So practice, practice, practice!

 

Acknowleged. Unfortunately, there seems to be a Warhammer Shadespire mania going in my meta now, for first time, I see more people playing that damnable card game instead of 40K or even AOS wargames. A real pity as the mania started when SW codex came out, and continues now even when Orks are out.

 

Stilll, practice practice practice. FENRIS HJOLDA!

[TiguriusX]

The HI trick I imagine involves usage of buildings

 

Most people will seek cover or LOS blocking and forget a SW character can come rampaging out 6"