GK win at Scottish ITC tournament.

[STTAB]

Caught this on the Caledonian Deathwatch Podcast. Aceface did a pretty tournament list review and scrolled past his list with no comment. 1st place at Scottish Takeover 4, GK as primary faction.

 

 

GK;

 

3 GMDK

 

3 5 Strikes w/falscions

 

1 5 interceptors w/falscions

 

Steel Legion;

 

2 company commander

1 primaris psyker

 

4 *10 infantry

 

Custodes;

3 shield captains on bikes

 

 

 

Apparently the guy has had a few high placings in the UK recently.

[Capt. Mytre]

Broken shield captains on bikes, with a CP farm and some GK.

 

Soup needs to die.

[Beams]

That seems like a pretty solid list.

[Waking Dreamer]

Broken shield captains on bikes, with a CP farm and some GK.

 

Soup needs to die.

 

It's not that Soup needs to die, it just shouldn't be that good compared to mono.

 

So, it's more like strong restrictions on Soup lists, and then we can see if Soup can still thrive in the wilds of the meta...

[Capt. Mytre]

 

Broken shield captains on bikes, with a CP farm and some GK.

 

Soup needs to die.

 

It's not that Soup needs to die, it just shouldn't be that good compared to mono.

 

So, it's more like strong restrictions on Soup lists, and then we can see if Soup can still thrive in the wilds of the meta...

 

 

I'm exaggerating, probably should have said it more like "Soup, as it is, needs to die". I'm fully in favour of allies, probably more so than most. It just needs to be fluffy and balanced. There's already been proposed the perfect solution, just a matter of if GW listens or not. Fixes so many issues with the game in one redesign.

 

Give X CP per X00 points of the game limit, then subtract CP per additional detachment. Ta-da, no more CP batteries, no more having to balance CP costs against the max possible CP that soup allows vs when running an army mono-faction (think IK strat nerfs), souping is now a trade off rather than the perfect solution, elite armies are no longer at a disadvantage due to unit costs, CP is far easier to balance as you can always tell what the average CP will be for a game type, mono-faction armies are buffed etc.

 

Seriously, it's such a good fix.

[Panzer]

Such a clickbait title. It's clearly not a GK list that won the tournament, it's an imperium list with some GK flavour added. It's nice to see them doing well for once in SOME form, but it's just one tournament and there are a LOT of allies as usual.

[Prot]

I am as convinced as ever this forum will be forever in turmoil no matter how good or bad the Grey Knights are or become.

 

I personally don’t play with heavy allies but I accept that this is how Imperium works at the most cut throat of tournaments.

 

Thousand Sons are one of my favourite non Imperium armies. There’s a gaming ‘ system ‘ ( not going to get into names) where they claim Thousand Sons are one of the best armies performance wise at tournaments. Do you know what they consist of? Magnus, Mortarion ( which I could never do) , a bunch of multigod Daemons....oh and a grand total of one power armoured model(s) calked Ahriman. It’s ridiculous.

 

The army posted in this thread is far closer to its namesake than probably 75% of the winning army’s I see at tournaments. The last tournament I was at had various named factions yet nearly all of them had common elements: Knights, and Shield Captains on bikes.

 

I think what the player accomplished with that core list is pretty darn commendable in a competitive environment. You just really don’t see ANY element of GK in nearly any top 10 GT tournaments at all.

 

Personally I think tournies are a terrible measuring stick right now. Allies are just goofy and there are a small handful of codexes that truly can stand alone.

 

Let’s at least try to keep our cool until Chapter Approved. ( then I’ll just run and hide ;) )

[Trevak Dal]

Broken shield captains on bikes, with a CP farm and some GK.

 

Soup needs to die.

Yo but Crisis Suit commanders? Thats just over the top and needs to be addressed. That army with no close combat ability and no psychic phase and no Jump shoot jump can only take ethereals and fireblades in their supreme command detachment. They got to be guardsmen with 4+ saves and a s5 30" range gun and castle up.

 

Mother :cussers.

 

Not you guys. The :cussers who made that decision necessary. "Why not just limit the number of weapons a Commander can carry? or limit the Coldstar commanders to one per slot? Or raise the :cussing ballistic skill of normal crisis suits? IDK, it's getting late and my liver has recovered from yesterday so it's time to hit the pub." - some guy at GW.

 

And the nerf to fly when some power gamer :cuss (Juice) abused it.

 

I'm still holding out until chapter approved. But I aim to take what I want to take (chaos marines, grey Knight terminators, and crisis suits).

[Capt. Mytre]

 

Broken shield captains on bikes, with a CP farm and some GK.

 

Soup needs to die.

Yo but Crisis Suit commanders? Thats just over the top and needs to be addressed. That army with no close combat ability and no psychic phase and no Jump shoot jump can only take ethereals and fireblades in their supreme command detachment. They got to be guardsmen with 4+ saves and a s5 30" range gun and castle up.

 

Mother :cussers.

 

Not you guys. The :cussers who made that decision necessary. "Why not just limit the number of weapons a Commander can carry? or limit the Coldstar commanders to one per slot? Or raise the :cussing ballistic skill of normal crisis suits? IDK, it's getting late and my liver has recovered from yesterday so it's time to hit the pub." - some guy at GW.

 

And the nerf to fly when some power gamer (Juice) abused it.

 

I'm still holding out until chapter approved. But I aim to take what I want to take (chaos marines, grey Knight terminators, and crisis suits).

 

 

 

GW ain't the best at balancing. Either the team they have is inept, the method for balancing is poor or the higher ups are pushing on them to release things certain ways. Personally I feel it's a combination. They need technical writers to write the base rules, so that you don't have issues like soup and CP farming. These are things people noticed pre-release.

 

As for Tau, it would have made far more sense to make Commanders a buffing unit rather than a pure combat unit. The most effective method to bring crisis suits should have been a unit of suits (or more) with a commander to buff it. It's kind of similar to how GMNDK just outshines regular NDKs. I wouldn't be surprised if we see the same limit to GMNDK as the Tau got, but no fixes for why NDKs suck.

 

Basically GWs balancing method is plugging holes for the leaky rule set, but not stopping the drill making all the holes. It's the partial reason for the mess we have at the moment, with more books required to play than 7th edition and a million PDFs and basic rule changes.

[Lemondish]

Broken shield captains on bikes, with a CP farm and some GK.

 

Soup needs to die.

 

And if it should die, it'll take about 8 other full factions with it. 

 

I'd rather it remain and let some factions continue to be usable than go back to a time where an entire codex book is rendered completely unplayable. 

[STTAB]

I understand soup is not to everyone's taste but regardless, well done to the guy for taking a primarily GK force and doing well.

 

I do like the flexibility of soup and it makes it easy to transition from a usable ally detachment to a full mono army. Both my Dark Angels and Blood Angels strated as allies to a GK force to shore up their weaknesses and now I generally run DA and BA together but I have mono 2k lists for both.

 

I would love to see a mono codex bonus for the purists. Surely a mono force would work better together and some bonus should account for that. Perhaps a special rule, stratagem, CP bonus or the ability to take that factions specialist unit as a troop choice. I'd love to do a 100% Ravenwing army with bikers as troops choice and have some CP to use.

[Panzer]

I have nothing against soup armies. I just dislike that mono Marines are so much weaker than soup armies that they can't even compete and calling a soup army a GK army is simply not true.

[Lemondish]

I have nothing against soup armies. I just dislike that mono Marines are so much weaker than soup armies that they can't even compete and calling a soup army a GK army is simply not true.

 

I hear you - I dislike that too. 

 

Killing soup wouldn't resolve anything on its own, though. It would just make GK units disappear entirely from competitive play, along with most of Custodes, much of Deathwatch, the rest of Inquisition (pretty much already entirely gone), all Assassins, and pretty much all Imperial Knights. I'm not sure that's a healthier place to be in. 

 

I do agree mono forces probably need some sort of incentive to build entirely from one force, but I also think many of these armies just need to be balanced in such a way that they have cost effective solutions to some of their problems internally. Marine armies can't compete with the screening potential and backfield objective holding of guard, but if they were more durable or cheaper, they probably could. DW can't compete on efficient anti-tank outside of a handful of options, but an army with access to melta, land raiders, and the blackstar honestly shouldn't have a problem here. They suffer because those options are overcosted. 

 

Knights, Assassins, Inquisition, and Custodes are all pretty much designed to be allied armies. It's just the nature of those factions, and there is very little that can be done to make up for that.   

[Corvus Fortis]

I think, 40k needs Allegience system from AoS. Take no more than 25% of allies, or your entire army will be Imperium, and stratagems/relics/WTs are blocked. It is great in AoS, why not to use it in 40k too? Allies become what they should be - limited support for weakspots of an army. If you want just bring powerful stuff, do it but lose all synergies. 

[Panzer]

I'd be fine with that. 500p of Astra Militarum in a 2k list is still a whole lot of models and CP considering they can easily take a Battalion for 200p.

 

However I'd like a more natural approach to reduce the impact of taking lots of allies.

The main reason we see so many AM allies is because they add tons of bodies and CP for basically nothing. That's because the detachments all have the same requirements but the Codexes don't have the same means to fulfill those requirements. Namely FOC slots. Kinda a "balance" system or a ressource completely detached from points. Doesn't make much sense to have two different ressource systems for units in the same game format. The solution would be to remove one of it or change it to the other of course

So my attempt to solve the problem would be to change the FOC requirements from slots to a percentage of the total points of your army. That way AM would pay the exact same amount of points for CP as Marines as Eldar as T'au ... you get it. That would instantly remove the issue of AM getting abused as CP generator for other armies and the reason to take them now would be for their actual units (including having more bodies on the board because that's what they do).

There also wouldn't be much of a difference between taking Strike Squads and Terminator Squads for Troops anymore. The only difference would be that you'd have less but more durable bodies on the board if you take Terminators instead but the amount of points you would have to pay to fill a Battalion detachment would be the same.

 

Anyway that's kinda offtopic now. Sorry about that. ^^

[Corvus Fortis]

It won't decide exactly AM battery problem. I say more - AM-battery works like what allies should be - give CP to armies which suffers from CP starving. But you wouldn't be able to take castellan+custodes bikes+BA caps+AM-battery and be OK. 

[Trevak Dal]

I like command points being limited per point level, and by doing game actions (capturing objectives, completing tactical objectives) you get command points back, with more general strategems to be added to use as you see fit.

[Ninjoe42]

Huh. Steel Legion. I wonder why they chose them?

[SyNidus]

It's part GK, but i wouldn't call it a GK list.

[STTAB]

Armageddon Steel Legion get their rapid fire weapons doubled up to 18". All other benefits of Steel Legion won't affect the infantry (all vehichle based). 40 lasguns with rapid fire 2 using first rank/second rank can output 160 shots at 9". If you are just using infantry that will be moving then Steel Legion looks like a good choice.