Axioms of Victory: Unconventional RG Strategies

[GreyCrow]

Of course, what I need from you in return is feedback on trying this strategy and increase the experimental results.

Fair trade ? :)

 

Nutshell, from observation :

- Real life strategic tricks can’t work with Marines due to army design (sacrifice your pawns, keep the valuables for decisive action)

- That’s because our pawns (Troops of all kind) have no teeth. In chess, even a pawn can threaten a queen.

- Because of that, and overall game, table design, the opponent will prioritize to shoot the valuables

- The only redeeming qualities of Troops is objective secured

 

So, the strategy is :

- Since you cant get away with protecting your valuables, sacrifice them to make sure your Troops survive till end game

- Before they die, make sure that they can destroy enough so that your Tacticals are not threatened

- Force the opponent to deal with them and make it as much of a pain

- For army comp, no more than 35% of your points in Troops (20 Geared Tacticals at 1k point, 40 at 2k points)

- Make sure your Troops survive till end game, focus in grabbing objectives where the Troops are the clean up crew

 

It’s basically playing Chaos where your sacrifice your valuables to keep the mooks to survive throughout the game.

Very counter intuitive on how logical strategy would do, but mathematics show us we just don’t have the firepower to do decisive action.

[duz_]

Split this topic off from the previous thread due to the great points GreyCrow has raised!


Having read a lot of RG novels lately and their tactics I think some certainly apply on the table top.

As GC points out, our troops don't have teeth and are expensive so we need to be clever how we use them.

 

When it comes to tactical marines, even in 7th I found objective grabbing a much better use for them

Having them hide out of the way or in cover to score points

Use other units to distract away from the actual mission

Distract the enemy by focusing on a flank then withdrawing (TH/SS Terminators do this amazingly!)

The more I read the RG novels, the more I consider how I can apply the RG tenants to the table top

[GreyCrow]

Thanks for the spotlight !

 

Indeed, really the name of the 40k game from my current standpoint in 8th is : make your obsecure units survive as long as possible.

It’s really counter the tenets of the real life strategy to use your valuable units as a distraction, but the game system is so centered on objectives that you got to think differently.

 

The way I’m looking at it now :

- Troops : the MVPs. They suck but they have obsec

- HQ/Elite : Close support on very key objectives. Used to reinforce and turn tide in a Troop vs Troop engagement

- Fast Attack : Sacrifical assault, in the face distraction, roadblock

- Heavy Support : Distraction by fire threat, whittling down ennemies

- LOW : They are actually battleline effective because they can give and take a punch

- Fliers : Halfway between FA and HS, they’re really an obvious target but they can offer some pretty decent over time fire support

 

It’s a bit horrible that you have to preserve the sucky units just because they have a gimmick that allows them to capture stuff, but that’s really what it’s about it seems.

 

In codex firepower and points balance seem to indicate this.

 

Example of a 1000 points list (Patrol) :

- HQ : Lieutenant (MC boltgun, Power Sword)

- Troops : 2 x 10 Tactical Squads, 2 Power Sword, Plasmagun/Cannon, Meltagun/Melta

- FA : 3 x Landspeeders with double heavy Flamets

- HD : 8 Devastators (3 Plasma Cannons), 5 Devastators (2 Plasma Cannons)

 

Nutshell : combat squad the Tacticals to delay deployment, in safe areas

Position Devastators Later, once some of their key threats have been identified, so you can isolate fire lanes and use the LOS blocking elements

Finish with deploying the Squadron of Landspeeders in one place, where they can use antigravity up wash and cover to pounce in on a flank and seriously annoy the opponent

 

Devastators will average 10 Shots from down range with 8 ablative wounds before their firepower go down. Use RG tactics to reduce incoming fire

Landspeeders will average 21 hits while at full squadron (7 Marines dead) with a 28” threat range

 

Obviously the list will struggle against mechanized forces except the devas

Supercharge will throw 6 wounds on a Rhino a turn outside of cover, ideally you isolate and murderize infantry with this list

You throw the speeders as a sacrificial unit to inflict maximum casualties on infantry, fly and fry if you are being charged

[thewarriorhunter]

Very cool thoughts. I'm going to start going to a store that does 650 point games, I'll have to see if I can apply some of these ideas at the smaller level.

[GreyCrow]

Very curious to see how it goes !

You can limit your Troops to 15 Marines in 3 squads and a cheap HQ

 

Obviously, there has to be economics in sacrifice, so don’t sacrifice in vain.

You want your support units to take at least 4 turns to be dealt with lest they become an annoying objective grabber end game.

[duz_]

At 650 you'll probably be able to put a bit of this to practice as you should have to worry too much about LoWs or an abundance of heavy Armour

 

Take Assault Marines ;)

 

 

Win then report back :tu:

[GreyCrow]

Assault Marines, you will want them to be attacking objectives on a flank with low fire support to force the enemy to divert part of the forces to deal with them.

Don’t expect massive damage output, but expect to be annoying.

 

Aside from Support Primaris, footsloggers have very little damage output/resilience. Most of the heavy fighting should be done by vehicles.

[Race Bannon]

Theoretically, vehicles should be doing the heavy fighting.  Which is best?  At low points a dreadnought due to versatility?  So, high points some more cost effective, like a Predator?

[thewarriorhunter]

I have no vehicles painted so I'll probably not field any my first few times. I have a LSS or a Contemptor that are playable.

 

For this I'm thinking an assault squad for mobility, devastator squad for fire support, a cheap hq, and troops for the rest. I'll play with list building this week to see what I can do.

[Race Bannon]

I have no vehicles painted so I'll probably not field any my first few times. I have a LSS or a Contemptor that are playable.

 

For this I'm thinking an assault squad for mobility, devastator squad for fire support, a cheap hq, and troops for the rest. I'll play with list building this week to see what I can do.

 

Well, we are still in theory-land and no every commander has everything at their disposal ;)

 

It seems to me the Devs would shoot down the targets where the Troops are going.  Once the Troops establish a hold on ground, then the Devs support another unit, another turn.

[duz_]

Forget the numbers but I suspect for consistent fire output for price Dreads are probably better than Predators?

 

Unfortunately my RG force has neither atm.

[GreyCrow]

@thewarriorhunter

 

A Contemptor is going to be too expensive at 650 points.

Use Assault and Devas, probably remember something like : 15 Tacticals (heavy weapon is preferred versus special, no option on Sgt to keep it cheap), Cheap Lieutenant, 10 Assault, 10 Devas with 4 Heavy Weapons.

 

Remember the following :

- Your Assault Squad will die. It's about how long they can be a pain in the ass for the enemy.

- Your Devastators will die. It's about how long they stay, and how much of a threat to the Tacticals they're taking away.

- Try to not take any Tacticals casualty within the first 3 turns. Heavy Weapon is for cleaning up targets of opportunity only and threats towards the later game.

 

Take solace in the glorious sacrifice of the brothers to protect the true MVP : the tactical squad.

 

Don't sacrifice them in vain, but try to go for trades that matter.

 

Assault Squad : Use mobility to annoy jump over and around a building, to make them chase you for a few turns and get a few units off the bat. Sacrifice them if you force the enemy to move out to catch you.

 

Devas : Hold an Objective far away. Force the opponent to come and take it or shoot you down from afar. If he grabs that objective, it should benefit your overall strategy.

[MajorNese]

This approach fits well what I did pre-FAQ. Haven't played my Raptors since (new army project), but worked well on a tournament back in the day (which I have mentioned a few times, so some might skip this part).

 

Don't take tacticals, unless you need special deployment options (transport, Issodon,...). Take standard primaris instead.

-If you gear up the tacs with special weapons, they're as expensive as their bigger brethren, and that one weapon makes their perceived threat greater than it is. Primaris with AP-1 on every weapon and 2A each don't sound really overwhelming, but the sum of models will make up for that one special weapon you lose out on

-With 2W, they will take twice the amount of fire to kill, if you can manipulate the opponent's target priority to use D2 weapons on something else. As you want those guys to stick around, that's auto-include for me

-The damage output is low enough to not attract a lot of attention, but is sufficient when skirmishing around distant objectives with other objective grabbers. I've had my 5 man squads take it up with Tau ghosts, DE warriors (12x2), tacs/scouts, poxwalkers and others. Numerical superiority in CC becomes worthless for the opponent when your dudes essentially are 2 marines each (twice the wounds, twice the attacks), leading to quite a few underestimations and subsequent eternal CCs. Bonus points for positioning in terrain to limit the number of models in range for hitting your dudes.

 

Except for that, threat management will help your troops a lot.

-Threat priority - Would you rather shoot your anti infantry at devs with big guns, or some tacs with just bolters? If you select your FA/HS/EL units to fill the same target role as your tacs, you can guarantee they won't be targeted until the higher threat target is dead

-Staged deployment - Once your distraction target is dead, hand out a replacement distraction target. Deep Strike being limited to turns 2 and 3 still works for this - Issobombing sternguard/devs/spare tac squads after the previous distraction was wiped out will draw out the elimination of the tacs for another round or two

-Denied target types - Every list runs Anti Infantry, anti tank and so on. If you focus on one type of unit, the other weapons just run out of suitable targets. If you have vehicles as distractions, it will soak up lascannons, but heavy bolters will still target the tacs. If you have only infantry (and similar) as distraction, everything will target the greatest threat, and the additional damage of big guns will be wasted

-Unappealing target - Basically, everyone hates wasting firepower on units that are harder to scratch than others. Who would you rather shoot, some assault marines below 12" and out of cover (regular hit, 3+ armour) or tacs in cover (-1 to hit, 2+ armour)? Even if killing the tacs might be essential on the long run, people prefer to shoot the easy targets first, and remember objectives later. When it might be too late to still kill the troops, or they already scored

[GreyCrow]

Very interesting feedback Major !

 

A couple of points where our experiences differ (I don’t discount the longer term benefit of a last ditch support weapon in a tactical squad), but can’t agree more with your overall direction ! :)

 

Thanks for sharing your techniques on threat priority, really fits the thread.

It’s also interesting to see that your experiences sync with the overall observations from this thread too.

 

Edit :

Another 1000 points list, will try this one when I get a chance, not before end of month I’m afraid.

Outrider detachment

 

Captain - Jump Pack Power Fist

 

20 Tacticals - 1 Squad Power Sword, Plasma Cannon, Plasmagun, 1 Squad Meltagun/Multi-Melta

 

10 Assault Marines - 2 Flamers, double lightning claw on Sarge

5 Assault Marines - Plasma Pistol, Thunder Hammer on Sarge

Landspeeder Typhoon

Landspeeder Typhoon

 

Bit less brutality than the other list, this one focuses more on skirmish and mobility of the support elements.

Strategy for Assault Marines here is to use the Strike from the Shadows to get up the board very early on and distract around objectives. Avoid fighting unless targets are isolated/easy pickings.

Strategy for Speeders really is like a Devastators squad, pumping shots from afar and using small footprint to hide behind opportunistic cover.

 

Once again, still with the intent to sacrifice and contest side objectives on both fronts, trying to pick off ennemies this time and be a pain in the ass to catch rather than going full assault.

 

Perhaps being too light on Troops to be fair. Maybe the 35% rule should be reviewed upwards. This is where playtest will come in I guess.

[Jacques Corbin]

So what are our best distraction units? Everytime I bring my Ironclads, my opponent takes notice. 165 points to either dictate what he shoots at, or how he moves his units in response to how I move mine. They cannot be ignored, so you either dedicate the anti-tank to taking them down, or they will run up and wreck your face. T8 is so good!

 

My Assault Marines also draw a ton of aggro. If I really want to be a jerk, I run them with 3 plasma pistols and a power sword, and run a jump captain with them, rocking with a plasma pistol or combi-plasma. But still, I prefer 2 Flamers and 2 Lightning Claws for them to be Quick Reaction Force. I use my QRF to reinforce my line, or to jump towards any midfield objectives held by Scouts, mostly the latter. The Plasma Squad is good at being scary, and for heading for an objective in the enemy's backfield.

 

What are our best troop killers? I still like my Thunderfire Cannons over my Whirlwinds. Nowadays, I put my TFC in a corner behind a Stalker. A lot of things <fly> this edition, and 6 shots of S7 AP-2 D2 hitting on 2+ is good. Hell, even hitting on 4+ vs nonfliers is still kinda good. Having 2 of each in my backfield makes the middle of the table very dangerous. Also, T8 rhino chassis with a techmarine gunner hanging out nearby for repairs. Again, Assault Marines, with 2 Lightning Claws and 2 Flamers. Add jump Chappy, and watch most infantry wilt.

 

Also, why not Scouts for Troops?! Start on a midfield objective, for 0CP, and for 14ppm, you are 2+ on cover (cover + cloaks) and -1 to hit at >12". Hell, why start them on the board at all if you are not playing objectives until late game? Keep a squad or two in Land Speeder Storms until turn 3, then zoom them onto the board. How annoying is that to an opponent?! He thinks he just killed off your ObSec guys, and here come more, in very fast transports. Yeah, bring full squads of 10, bolters (or shotguns) and cloaks, combat squad them, deploy each combat squad to midfield objectives at the very start, and then on your third turn have the other combat squad zoom onto the board, right back onto a midfield objective (if you are playing long vs long) or set up for arriving at the objective on turn 4 (if playing short vs short). Still, keep at least one squad of Snipers to hold a backfield objectives, and discourage enemy support characters from getting too close.

 

Still, here anyways, a lot of people lose on objectives. It is to the point where some games are won by accident, because it starts with "ok let's play this mission" but ends up "I'm going to table you" and it just gets sloppy, like real war. I mean, I guess as long as both players had fun, but still. I am sick of seeing grown men hem & haw like petulant adolescents, because they lost, because they did not pay attention to the mission. The auto-lose if tabled rule is terrible! It encourages players to go for a tabling, instead of playing the mission. I really just need to hang around the local GW and meet players in private clubs that play home games. Some of the FLGS crowd are poor sports, and they make my wife uncomfortable with their leering. Makes me just want to RIP & TEAR the :cuss-ing lot of them!!!

[robofish7591]

This has definitely been an interesting discussion, and while I don't play Raven Guard I think that these tactics still apply no matter which chapter you happen to play.

 

If you need a distraction unit, a trio of predators does the job pretty well.  They are expensive, but killshot is a pretty decent stratagem and, in my experience, people will typically try to focus down your tanks to avoid getting hit by killshot.

 

I can also vouch for the Ironclad dread, they are tough due to T8 and with a chanfist and hurricane bolter they can do a pretty decent job of shooting up chaff and charging hard targets. 

 

It may also pay to give tacticals some of the lesser used special weapons.  While I like having a plasmagun and a combi-plama on the sergeant, maybe grav guns might not attract as much attention since they are used a lot less often?  Most of my tacticals are built as either las/plas squads or melta/multimelta squads, but I may try out gravguns or flamers paired with heavy bolters.  What kinds of loadouts do you all use with your tacticals?

[WickedApp]

My current strategy is to flood the board with scouts.  10 bolter scouts, 5 knife scouts, 4 snipers & ML/ cloaks, 3-4 snipers & heavy bolter /cloaks, even dug up Sgt Telion.  3 scout Bikers to pick off the easy strays.

 

follow up with two 5 man Devs las-cannons and ML

 

2 smash captains, 2 JP Lt plasma pistol/chainsword on one,  Powerfist & Combi-melta on the other, Shrike 

either I deep strike later or I can place them in the backfield and run them around the board as a distraction.

 

Add in a Razor back filled with 3-4 Company Vets stormbolter/shield, Libarian, company Ancient, & Apothecary ( I know someone is walking  )

 

try to squeeze in Talon or interceptor  bare bones to draw fire.

[mertbl]

I've been playing with lists lately using tacs with a heavy weapon and a combi on the sgt. Also thinking of plasma/combi-plasma.

[Jacques Corbin]

"Mistakenly" leave a hole when attempting to position your units for deep strike denial, and your opponent will not be able to resist showing you that he found the little hole you left open. That is when you pop 2CP on Auspex Scan, and have your Devastators, Sternguard, or Sniper Scouts with Heavy Bolter, open up on him.

[Dracos]

Suggestion. Primaris biased. Keep your Warlord simple and non-threatening as possible but buffing effective units when needed/possible. 

 

Looking at a two Captain in a Battalion. One a Smash Captain type, even Shrike, the other plain Jane with bolt rifle. SHrikes going to get all the attention with the Inceptors and or Reivers in my case. While the Bolt Rifle Captain (our Warlord) is tucked away in an Intercessor squad which happens to be flanked by a unit of Hellblaster or Aggressors advancing on an Objective. 

 

I still maintain one needs to focus three areas of pressure on the battlefield. Usually 20% of your force in your own backfield/deployment zone another 20% pushing on a objective your opponent will have to over extend to challenge for, and 40% in your opponents backfield and another 20% to run interference. 

 

Its why I really like the double battalion set up. 4 Captains and or Lieutenant to buff each of these, or one of the Lieutenants running bodyguard duty for the Warlord Captain.

[ShinyRhino]

I'm curious what types of missions you're all playing under these conditions.

Around here, it's ITC missions all day every day. There's far less emphasis on objectives, as you only need one to score every turn.

 

Taking large 10 man squads means your opponent selects Reaper as one of their secondaries. Taking small squads causes selection of Butcher's Bill.

I don't typically see objectives contested much, you just get shot or stabbed off the board entirely.

Troops are a tax for players here, not a resource. Or is that the unconventional part?

[thewarriorhunter]

I believe that's the unconventional part. Also I don't even know what ITC format is. I've heard about it on several podcasts and I understand it's a popular standard for competitive missions.

 

I tend to play book or narrative missions, open war deck is my favorite.

[UnkyHamHam]

I would love to be a part of a conversation that attempts to reconcile a TAC army with the various mission formats that are popular. Like Eternal War, Maelstrom, ITC, ETC, Renegade, NOVA, and so on.

 

It's a part of the gaming aspect that I don't know much about. Like what lists and strategies are effective for some and not others? Or what strategies are solid all around and can be relied on in most formats.

[GreyCrow]

I could ask my ETC buddies about the main formats.

 

Keep in mind that while these tournaments are competitive, the guys hosting them are not game designers.

I work in the video games industry now and I can see that game designers always have an intent of the ‘game loop’ (what the player actually has to do to succeed and enjoy).

 

TO don’t necessarily know what the game designers have in mind. Actually nobody is told, and figuring it out is also part of the game experience.

 

For instance, GW insists that players take turn in placing objectives. Formats like the Las Vegas Open seems to have predetermined maps and scenarios.

 

The latter will favor specific builds, because there will be an optimal solution for each army.

[mertbl]

Designing for the mission set is a big part of the game, sorta. If your goal is #1 at whatever event you are going to, you will need to do some research. I heard/read that adepticon is pretty light on terrain. Knowing this allowed Matt root to plan his army around it. At the highest levels I dont think anyone is running the same list at every event, except for the castellan/guard/BA and double ynarri lists.

 

I would love to be a part of a conversation that attempts to reconcile a TAC army with the various mission formats that are popular. Like Eternal War, Maelstrom, ITC, ETC, Renegade, NOVA, and so on.

 

It's a part of the gaming aspect that I don't know much about. Like what lists and strategies are effective for some and not others? Or what strategies are solid all around and can be relied on in most formats.