Axioms of Victory: Unconventional RG Strategies

[MajorNese]

Wait, so my ninja shenanigans are going away too?! C'mon, ugh! I guess whoever cries and whines the most and the loudest gets their way. Our CT is what allows me to weather all the ridiculous shooting from Tau and Guard lists.

Nope. Confirmed by various YT reviews to be completely wishlisting. (Source:

, at 3min)

 

The only official rules changes were Battle Brothers, Targeting Characters and Psychic Focus - beta rules half a year ago, FAQ already called it finalized, now carved in stone paper. Tactical Reserves (deep strike limit, SftS nerf) and the rule of 3 are still only beta rules to try out - depending on your local gamers/tournaments, you may still be able to use it.

[duz_]

Wait so RG keep their -1 to hit???

 

YASS!!! :D

[Dracos]

According to Blood of Kittens

 

New Rules:

 

Tau Farsight’s the Eight:

Looted Wagons:

-1 to hit “Chapter Tactics” type rules across all codexes is now +1 cover

Grey Knights & Thousand Sons getting Full Smite

I’ve seen these rule changes rumored on other websites so we will have to see. I’d be perfectly happy being wrong of course.

[duz_]

From Majors post which is a winterseo review there is no mention of those rules

 

Reece from FLG also said on Wednesday CA is not intended for rules changes mainly points adjustment. And not to expect those kinda changes.

[thewarriorhunter]

I hope not. I feel a +1 to cover world be more fitting for Imperial Fists. They understand fortifications and can take advantage. The -1 to hit makes sense for RG because it shows that they're sneaky and can be hard to detect.

[GreyCrow]

Actually would not mind +1 cover. -1 to hit is cool and fluffy, but it actually barely helps us against armies with high BS.

 

+1 cover helps us on everything, including Plasma and other high AP weapons. In ruins, it effectively means we get a 3+ against AP-2 and a 4+ against AP-3 as well.

The math actually shows that it's much better against small arms than higher AP things, obviously though. Numbers are very very good against Bolters and no AP weapons, at the expense of slightly more casualties on the Plasma and higher AP weapons.

 

It's pretty solid too :D For help, here's the math below

 

10 Bolter shots over 12" :

- Current CT : 0.83 casualties

- +1 Cover CT : 0.56 casualties

 

10 Lasgun shots (Guardsmen) over 12"

- Current CT : 0.37 casualties

- +1 Cover CT : 0.27 casualties

 

10 Plasma shots (Hellblasters) over 12" :

- Current CT : 3.33 casualties

- +1 Cover CT : 3.70 casualties

 

10 Plasma shots (regular Plasma on Marines) over 12":

- Current CT : 2.78 casualties

- +1 Cover CT : 2.96 casualties

 

10 AutoCannons (Dreadnoughts, is it AP-2?) shots over 12" :

- Current CT : 2.22 casualties

- +1 Cover CT : 2.22 casualties

 

10 Heavy Bolter shots over 12" (regular MEQ) :

- Current CT : 1.67 casualties

- +1 Cover CT : 1.11 casualties

 

Between you and I, I'm totally taking that trade. 32% less damage taken on small arms fire and AP-1, same damage taken on AP-2, 6% more on AP-3 and only an 11% increase on the AP-4 weapons. If this is happening, this is insanely good.

 

Because that means now the enemy has to use even bigger firepower to deal with your normal Marines. They become more survivable at an economical level. The fact that it takes 30% more firepower of basic units to inflict the same damage means a lot.

Either the opponent rushes forward and you can jump on him with ambushing Vanguard Vets or melee, either your basic gunline has 30% more survivability.

 

Plus, it's removing the shenanigans of Plasma overloading on 1-2s. How can a sneaky guy makes your gun go boom is beyond my understanding. 

[thewarriorhunter]

Well, it's hard to argue with hard numbers. I didn't think it would be that small of a change an the high AP weaponry. I don't like the idea though that to benefit it limits me to being in cover. I like how the correct CT is everywhere on the board as long as I'm outside the 12" bubble.

[GreyCrow]

Let's see what we'll be getting from this, I like being a skeptic until this we see completely.

 

In all fairness, it really doesn't matter that much whether or not this change will happen. We'll have no choice but to adapt. It's actually a small adaptation required.

[Johanhgg]

Since sfts apperantly is beta rules, you still play with original rules?

[duz_]

If your gaming group or opponent agrees yes

 

You'll find mind tournaments automatically adopt beta rules though

[thewarriorhunter]

And even if they become official you can still house rule with your group. The couple guys I am friends with that play I'd probably ask for that since I'm not dropping 30 cultists at their front door. If I went to a store to play with a rando I wouldn't ask because I don't know them and matched play rules are a 'contract' that keeps both players informed and accountable.

[Dracos]

Well, it's hard to argue with hard numbers. I didn't think it would be that small of a change an the high AP weaponry. I don't like the idea though that to benefit it limits me to being in cover. I like how the correct CT is everywhere on the board as long as I'm outside the 12" bubble.

 

I'm more interested in the math that involves Reaper missile launchers and Shuriken Cannons and other top table weapons commonly used against Marines. Im not really concerned with a Guardsmen lasgun if my Intercessor is in cover or over 24" away.

 

Eldar average about a S6 in my opinion with weapons like blasters and the like spammed by many units. I'm not arguing your math but that the weapons that we would benefit the most from aren't the real threat to begin with.

[Dracos]

So .... I've got the 15 Hellblaster ready-ish and starting the 20 Intercessors this week. 

 

 ... and I'm thinking of going to 10 Bolt Rifles and 10 Stalker Rifles. The idea would be dedicating Stalkers to the backfield and using the Bolt Rifles toward the flanks grabbing objectives midfield. 

 

Has anyone been considering the Stalkers since the dropped to 0 points? The -2 AP and 36" is looking pretty tasty as a free side grade.

[Jacques Corbin]

Yeah, I actually would prefer the Stalker for Intercessors. I wish they had an option for MELTA BOMBS! I would definitely grab that Auxiliary Grenade Launcher then.

[Dracos]

Started painting my Sentry Guns today and musing on my Intercessor project (still waiting on 5 Terminator Power Fist to start the Aggressor conversions). So I loaded up BattleScribe and hey it has the Primaris Veterans up as an option. So .... 

 

Until now I've been all about MSU except for Aggressors and Inceptors which are locked  in at 5 man units (for me). I usually been contemplating Double Battalions consisting of either 5 each of 2 Scouts/1 Intercessor or visaversa. If If spending CP instead of points to upgrade Intercessors to Veterans I'm thinking I might have to play with composition a bit. 1 CP for 1 unit of 10 is more economical than 2 CP for 2 units of 5 and that doesnt incluse the 1 point "buy in" CP to begin with. 

 

I was wondering if anyone else has been working the numbers and what you came up with. I'll be posting a list of my potential Warhawk Veterns sometime tonight after I play the numbers a bit :)

[thewarriorhunter]

I haven't looked per se but my buddy loves the idea of the veteran upgrade combined with today's beta bolter role. Apparently upgrading to veterans and the new rule gives an insane amount of shots from intercessor units.

[Dracos]

Yeah, I just ran across this beta rule a few minutes ago. I had been contemplating Stalker Bolt Rifles, so, not so sure now. I think I'd rather my backfield guys possibly lose 6 inches but double the shots, losing the AP -2 sucks though. Definitely need some theoryhammer in the works. 

 

2 shots at 30" definitely enhances the Raven Guard gunline elements though. Going to re-think my Battalions. See if I can afford going with a 10 man Veteran Intercessor squad with two 5 man Scout squads?

[seriade]

The thing with stalkers is you take them to make them the threat of turning them into sniper rifles so a small squad of 5 would be good but 10 normal bolter intercessors are probably best now.  The one that is worth considering is full dakka cents 3 hurricane bolters and 6 heavy bolters put out a ton of firepower.

[Dracos]

If this Beta goes through, which I'm sure it will, They'll have to give Stalker Bolt Rifles a mortal wounds on "6" or Heavy 2, to make them an option to consider ... for me.

[mertbl]

I think the beta rule can really shine with sternguard, 2 shots 30" 4/-2/1 with the +1 to wound stratagem. Should really mow down some chafe.

[MajorNese]

Well, this would make Raptors a lot more useful.

 

SftS would become universally better. SftS some guys towards midfield, and already be stationary turn 1 while getting close enough.

 

Sternguard are now just 16ppm (3ppm above tacs), having full squad or two doesn't cost that much any more. Think Issobomb with the option of starting on the board instead. Intercessors have the same range and less firepower, but twice the wounds and are troops, so they're more viable too. With recent points drops, dakka-centurions might even be worth it, with a threat range of 30" and 54 shots, while profiting from cover and -1 to hit (unlike vehicles).

 

Bikers and scout bikers become fun - 38-40" threat range for 4 shots per model (or 8 for the storm bolter sarge). Even attack bikes become better - they might be used to hang back, pump out some shots, and later speed across the board to capture objectives. With GSC getting their new quadbike, I know what I'd use to build them...

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

There are a lot of elements to the new Beta rule that are thought provoking for sure:

 

1) I agree with you both in regards to Sternguard. The biggest concern now is not getting alpha struck off the board.

 

2) Hurricane Bolters may be the most intriguing of the bunch (besides the obvious Storm Bolter). I think this may push Storm Ravens back into the "viable" category, as their ability to clear chaff at a safer range of 24" seems quite good.

 

3) Still not sold on dakka-cents. That unit of 3 still costs 210 points. They are more durable than aggressors, but their quality of firepower (for Raven Guard anyway) is relatively the same. Now if you are Imperial Fists - whew lawdy.

 

4) Company Veterans on Bikes are interesting (Index). At 40 PPM, they get their Bike (4 Shots), and a Storm Bolter (4 Shots). This is not as cheap when viewed as Points/Shots, but when you factor in move speed, resilience, and decent in CC, its not shabby.

[Dracos]

There are a lot of elements to the new Beta rule that are thought provoking for sure:

 

1) I agree with you both in regards to Sternguard. The biggest concern now is not getting alpha struck off the board.

Well, hopefully the table has decent terrain so as MajorNeese notes SFTS should help there.

 

2) Hurricane Bolters may be the most intriguing of the bunch (besides the obvious Storm Bolter). I think this may push Storm Ravens back into the "viable" category, as their ability to clear chaff at a safer range of 24" seems quite good.

I’ve seen this mentioned elsewhere and while I don’t think it will make them any more survivable it sure adds a nice bump to clearing cannon fodder. Actually it probably does more to keep the Land Raider survivable with less chance to be tied up in combat.

 

3) Still not sold on dakka-cents. That unit of 3 still costs 210 points. They are more durable than aggressors, but their quality of firepower (for Raven Guard anyway) is relatively the same. Now if you are Imperial Fists - whew lawdy.

Yeah, making it harder for me to resist getting some Centurions, but having 10 Aggressors alleviates some of that. They do seem very comparable units at equal points now. Internal Codex balance might be a thing eventually.

 

4) Company Veterans on Bikes are interesting (Index). At 40 PPM, they get their Bike (4 Shots), and a Storm Bolter (4 Shots). This is not as cheap when viewed as Points/Shots, but when you factor in move speed, resilience, and decent in CC, its not shabby.

Never liked motor bikes ( ... in game. Love mine ). Just seem out of place in a sci-fi environment.

 

 

This whole beta rule will barely nudge the needle as far as making Marines more than mid-tier. I think RG benefit more than most. I like it and hope it’s a sign of things to come in a Space Marine Codex 8.1 along with a Raptors Index Astartes that’s friendlier to Primaris ;)

[Panzer]

 

This whole beta rule will barely nudge the needle as far as making Marines more than mid-tier. I think RG benefit more than most. I like it and hope it’s a sign of things to come in a Space Marine Codex 8.1 along with a Raptors Index Astartes that’s friendlier to Primaris

 

 

Depends. In combination with the Indomitus Crusaders specialist detachment the buff is quite bigger than one would think. 10 Veteran Intercessors using that Bolt rifle Stratagem would pour out 40 S4 AP-1 shots at 30".

Other than that, yeah it will be barely noticeable I guess. Good enough to leave some Intercessors behind to guard a backfield objective at least.

[Dracos]

Oh no doubt. Just in my thought process without becoming more durable Marines are going to continue to underperform in the arena most commonly associated with them, the Midfield.

 

Once we are in midfield range, Marines have one turn (we hope) before getting bumrushed by the opponents melee unite (yea, not Tau) Marines (in my opinion need a strong beta strike to be able to interrupt the opponents tempo on their way in. (Back to) The Tau and Guard each have mechanics for this and Marines need either a strategy to do the same. I’m not saying a 4 or 5 plus over watch but something. Maybe grenades that allow Marines to go first when charged? Just spitballing for a unique idea. I’m exhausted seeing Marines charged and wiped out because Power Armor is way over-rated

 

Sorry rant over time to go work on a couple Sentry Guns :)