Dreadwing

[choppyred]

The Lutheran's  are loyalists  

[b1soul]

On the point of the Astro's darkening...the (healthy) Emp doesn't have to be on the Throne to power it. It is harder for him to remote-power the Astro though

[Izlude]

Just dl’ed this as a ebook and Spear of Ultramar for 5 bucks each which is not too bad. Has anyone read the latter? I have pretty much not enjoyed Annandale’s stuff so expectation is low. Were it not 5 bucks I would have skipped dispite that I am a UM whore.

[bluntblade]

It'd be a nice touch for the power-out in the dungeon to cause that, though it might be a bit late in the timeline

[bluntblade]

The Lutheran's are loyalists

You know what I mean. I felt like they were being set up to be that shadowy force involved at Xana, but nothing has been confirmed in that direction yet.

[Tymell]

Overall I really enjoyed this one, and despite one significant issue I have with it, I think it's among the best portrayals of the Dark Angels we've had in the series so far.

 

That one issue is a nail hit squarely on the head by Phoebus:

 

 

 

Depressingly, the Lion’s decisions at the end of the novella — regarding allies and the strategy he is to pursue — are nods to the worst of the Dark Angels plot lines from the Heresy. Guymer initially handles the primarch deftly. Too often, depictions of the Emperor’s sons suffer from a lack of their purported genius but an excess of their flaws. There is something Homeric in the Lion’s prolonged absence early in the novella — not unlike Achilles brooding in anger while his Achaean allies suffer against the Trojans. As the story goes on, though, Guymer opts for betrayals from the past to dictate the primarch’s decisions, even when the plainly don’t suit the situation. Likewise, despite the events of Ruinstorm disabusing the Lion of the ridiculous assumptions that informed the Imperium Secundus storyline (that, absent of knowledge to the contrary, it had to be assumed the Emperor was dead), by the end of Dreadwing we’re right back to square one

 

This is precisely how I felt at the end of the book. His decision at the end just feels faulty, and it falls into the trap we've seen several times in the series, where other characters bring up perfectly valid questions or counter-points, but they're just brushed aside with weak arguments, or just ignored entirely. Holguin says how questionable it is to take Curze's word on the future, and how there could be many reasons why the Astronomican has gone dark. As far as we know, it wouldn't be at all hard for Lion to verify this (given that the Ruinstorm is gone and he has Tuchulcha). Plus, we already went through all this in Imperium Secundus, with the Lion accepting that all was lost, then realising he was wrong and wanting to fight on. Now, as Phoebus says, this feels like a reset to square one.

 

All of that said, I -still- very much enjoyed this novella as a whole, and think it showed great work with the legion and the primarch. Their portrayals weren't as revolutionary as something like Wraight's work with the Scars, but it was a very satisfying consolidation of the elements we've seen before. I feel the First Legion has suffered in the past from portrayals by too many different authors, without anything really defining clearly who they are. This one had a great take on the Lion: he's quiet, reserved, reclusive and secretive, but obeys a rigid code of honour and can be quick to anger when that is challenged. He demands absolute loyalty and obedience, and his self-certainty definitely runs into arrogance and isolationism at times. He's a cold father to his sons, perhaps not to quite the same extreme as someone like Angron, but definitely lacking in warmth or trust. I especially enjoyed a quote at the start of one chapter, where Alpharius says Lion was the only brother where he could never tell what he was thinking.

 

All told, I enjoyed this a lot, but I really wish it had worked just a bit harder to give a satisfying conclusion.

[helterskelter]

So does this conflict with lords of silence in terms of when barbarus was destroyed? Because there's a bit in lords that suggests a DG returned post siege, if I interpreted correctly, for a piece of tree.

[Tymell]

So does this conflict with lords of silence in terms of when barbarus was destroyed? Because there's a bit in lords that suggests a DG returned post siege, if I interpreted correctly, for a piece of tree.

 

I haven't read Lords of Silence, but this one certainly says Barbarus is destroyed. There are chunks of it left floating though, I suppose conceivably someone could land on one. But not a whole planet, no.

[Morovir]

Even if it is the case, it's Lords of Silence that's wrong, as it's been established since before the book came out that Barbarus and Chemos were destroyed by the Lion pre-Siege.

[helterskelter]

Even if it is the case, it's Lords of Silence that's wrong, as it's been established since before the book came out that Barbarus and Chemos were destroyed by the Lion pre-Siege.

Yeah there's not masses of time between release, certainly enough time for authors to talk to each other, especially ones that sit in the same meetings for a particular series.

[Sulemain]

Is there any more lore revealed about the "Wings" of the Dark Angels? 

[Phoebus]

Is there any more lore revealed about the "Wings" of the Dark Angels?

 

We find out who the Voted Lieutenants and their Successors are for each of the Wings.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Interesting that the lion decided to replace the firewing lieutenant, even though to his knowledge the guy is still alive and with corswain

[Morovir]

Well, there is the fact that

 

“From Chemosian captives, mostly. But also a few astropathic intercepts.’ The Librarian glanced at Licinia who, in spite of her blindness, saw and nodded. ‘They say that the Ninth Order was caught between Calas Typhon and the fleet of his primarch, Mortarion, and destroyed.’ Shouts of denial rose up against his words, but the Librarian merely glowered and continued. ‘If there is any truth to these stories then the Death Guard have already landed on Caliban, and besiege the rock of Aldurukh as we speak.”

 

Of course, we know that Corswain survives up until the fall of Caliban, and slays Luther's Lord Cypher, but it is reasonable to assume otherwise given the information at hand.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Good catch! I was way too tired when I was reading it and forgot that blurb

[Sulemain]

Interesting that the lion decided to replace the firewing lieutenant, even though to his knowledge the guy is still alive and with corswain

 

Do we find out what the Firewing is/does? 

[Tymell]

 

Interesting that the lion decided to replace the firewing lieutenant, even though to his knowledge the guy is still alive and with corswain

 

Do we find out what the Firewing is/does? 

 

 

I don't recall it being explicitly spelled out, but the impression I got was of fire support, possibly anti-armour.

[Indefragable]

 

 

Interesting that the lion decided to replace the firewing lieutenant, even though to his knowledge the guy is still alive and with corswain

 

Do we find out what the Firewing is/does? 

 

 

I don't recall it being explicitly spelled out, but the impression I got was of fire support, possibly anti-armour.

 

 

For what it's worth, they are discussing over in the DA forums: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351188-the-firewing-answered/?p=5191112

[Phoebus]

Well, there is the fact that

 

“From Chemosian captives, mostly. But also a few astropathic intercepts.’ The Librarian glanced at Licinia who, in spite of her blindness, saw and nodded. ‘They say that the Ninth Order was caught between Calas Typhon and the fleet of his primarch, Mortarion, and destroyed.’ Shouts of denial rose up against his words, but the Librarian merely glowered and continued. ‘If there is any truth to these stories then the Death Guard have already landed on Caliban, and besiege the rock of Aldurukh as we speak.”

 

Of course, we know that Corswain survives up until the fall of Caliban, and slays Luther's Lord Cypher, but it is reasonable to assume otherwise given the information at hand.

The replacement named in Dreadwing was in place before those news. Remember, Griffayn is named as the Voted Lieutenant of the Firewing in Angels of Caliban, but it is qualified that he wears a half-shroud over his heraldry, and his position is said to be “in abeyance.” We are never told why this was the case, but for one reason or another Vastael has replaced Griffayn.

 

Do we find out what the Firewing is/does?

My impression is that the Firewing were what we would understand as the ordination of Devastator specialists — to include the use of fire support vehicles (such as gunships).

 

This is nothing more than conjecture on my part, but it seems like there is some overlap where the Wings and their specializations are concerned. For example, both the Firewing and the Dreadwing have a fire support role. Both of those Wings also have access to heavy armor, which is ostensibly the Ironwing’s province. On the other hand, the Dreadwing is more defined by the effect of their Destroyer weapons (radiation, phosphex, etc.), and not just the “heavy firepower” aspect. Likewise, it is qualified that the Ironwing is not simply about armored warfare or “just” heavy firepower (which comes with most tanks), but also about siege warfare.

[Morovir]

 

Well, there is the fact that

 

“From Chemosian captives, mostly. But also a few astropathic intercepts.’ The Librarian glanced at Licinia who, in spite of her blindness, saw and nodded. ‘They say that the Ninth Order was caught between Calas Typhon and the fleet of his primarch, Mortarion, and destroyed.’ Shouts of denial rose up against his words, but the Librarian merely glowered and continued. ‘If there is any truth to these stories then the Death Guard have already landed on Caliban, and besiege the rock of Aldurukh as we speak.”

 

Of course, we know that Corswain survives up until the fall of Caliban, and slays Luther's Lord Cypher, but it is reasonable to assume otherwise given the information at hand.

The replacement named in Dreadwing was in place before those news. Remember, Griffayn is named as the Voted Lieutenant of the Firewing in Angels of Caliban, but it is qualified that he wears a half-shroud over his heraldry, and his position is said to be “in abeyance.” We are never told why this was the case, but for one reason or another Vastael has replaced Griffayn. 

As Holguin and Redloss are described as being 'the only voted lieutenants of their respective Wings to have made it through the Ruinstorm alive', and the suggestion that several of the chairs of the Wings have sat empty for some time, with the Lion having 'ruled that every Wing of the Dark Angels must be heard' it could just simply be because Griffayn is with Corswain, the Firewing have no representative with the Lion's fleet, and so one is appointed to serve the purpose with the Lion's fleet.

[Phoebus]

As Holguin and Redloss are described as being 'the only voted lieutenants of their respective Wings to have made it through the Ruinstorm alive', and the suggestion that several of the chairs of the Wings have sat empty for some time, with the Lion having 'ruled that every Wing of the Dark Angels must be heard' it could just simply be because Griffayn is with Corswain, the Firewing have no representative with the Lion's fleet, and so one is appointed to serve the purpose with the Lion's fleet.

Vastael’s predecessor may very well have died, but the fact remains that Griffayn is no longer the Voted Lieutenant circa Angels of Caliban. That’s the point I’m trying to make.

[Roomsky]

Big fan of this one. I was worried Guymer's hot streak might be limited to Iron Hands, but I see he's got a wide range of talents. Dreadwing shows he's in no way limited to the absolutely soul-crushing monstrosity of the 10th, but at the same time has a wonderfully unified view of the setting.

 

The pacing is basically perfect; scenes are given room to breathe without overstaying their welcome. Both action scenes are made interesting by a very limited character focus, rather than sweeping but meaningless descriptions of a wider battlefield. The war councils are well considered, and the character's ruminations give far more personality to Holguin or Redloss than existed prior (I vaguely remember their names, but nothing else about them from previous works). 

 

I can absolutely understand why others criticize the ending, and perhaps I'm inundated to the Lion being an antisocial weirdo rather than a strategic mastermind at this point (see: every appearance of the Lion in a mainline Heresy novel), but I see it as the very real response of someone who believes they're smarter than everyone else forced to try and explain themselves. The Lion is paranoid, self-righteous, and clearly depressed. He spends the novel as an occasionally absent wreck who has rather clearly ran the worst possible scenario through his mind so many times it now seems an inevitability. That last scrap of revenge is all he believes he has, and he doesn't take any of his subordinates seriously enough to entertain their contrary ideas. A very real complex, that.

 

Overall, a pretty great read. I hope Guymer gets the Lion's Primarchs novel, he brings a wonderful flavor to the 1st.

[Phoebus]

I think you’ve hit the spot regarding the Lion’s portrayal. The concept Black Library decided to run with is, essentially, what Mitch Scanlon introduced in Descent of Angels. Mike Lee injected tactical and strategic nous in his novel, while Abnett presented his nobility and charisma, but Thorpe, Haley, Annandale, and, now, Guymer, have used a number of tropes and that “sinking man” concept to shoehorn the character in a number of unconvincingly bad decisions.

 

Don’t get me wrong: I completely understand why the Lion would be depressed and paranoid, etc. — but so would everyone around him. More importantly, when we take these character examinations to their logical conclusion, the Lion can’t just think he’s the smartest guy on the Invincible Reason and dismiss others accordingly. As a primarch, he has to be the smartest guy on it. Any number of factors can mitigate this, of course, but it’s a tough ask for me to go along with the Lion struggling so much more than his subordinates that he can’t recognize the logical fallacies that are so plainly obvious to Holguin.

 

Qualifier:

 

My reaction to the Lion going right back to “Terra is doomed!” mode is exacerbated by the Lion betraying obvious loyalists who were willing to put everything on the line against obvious traitors — “because Diamat.”

That case of apples to oranges is so extreme, it begs the question as to how the Lion was able to function with any loyalist factions since the events of Fallen Angels. Should we assume he also destroyed the Thramas Sector forge worlds after the Night Lords were routed? What makes them any more trustworthy?

[Fedor]

The way the various authors have built the character since Fallen Angels and especially Savage Weapons...i just think it would have made far more sense to have him try his absolute hardest to get to Terra after the end of Ruinstorm. His decision at the end of Ruinstorm and  what i'm reading from this thread seems more like what i would have expected from a shadier Lion more influenced by the old "playing both sides/waiting it out" speculation that Thorpe started through Astelan.

 

I'm interested to see where they go with this now.

[aa.logan]

I read this last night, and largely enjoyed it.

 

However, I dreamt last night that there was a section of the book where a chapter serf needed to change the batteries on an exterminatus device. It was a single cr2302, which I thought was a little weedy for such a powerful machine, but the ominissah knows best.

 

I think that the Lion has bought into what Curze foresaw and genuinely believes that Hourus has/will inevitably win and lies about the beacon being extinguished to Holguin and Redloss; it would look bad to them if he didn’t at least *try* to get to Terra, but he “knows” it will be futile so needs a reason not to go.