TWC vs Wulfen

[shanewatts]

Hey all,

 

I am trying to help a friend make his wolves more competitive and I was hoping to get some input on your experiences with using TWC and Wulfen. Thanks!

[thymidine]

Wulfen are better in every way.

 

They can outflank

They move faster on average (advance and charge is good)

They can fight in ruins

They get more attacks

They can attack when they die

They have a feel no pain

They buff your other units

 

TWC... look cool and have more wounds. I love my TWC but if you want power, Wulfen all the way.

[DanPesci]

Yeah wulfen are our best CC unit...if not one of the best CC units in the game right now.

 

Only time i can see using TWC over wulfen is having a lord on one.

[Starskysdad]

Wulfen bud

 

If you have the luxury of points and models in the game then TWC are a very good distraction carnifex as they will be a complete bullet magnet to take pressure off of other units. In fact in my games the only thing that usually trumps TWC as first turn bullet magnet is a Stormwolf !!

[PeteySödes]

Wulfen bud

 

If you have the luxury of points and models in the game then TWC are a very good distraction carnifex as they will be a complete bullet magnet to take pressure off of other units. In fact in my games the only thing that usually trumps TWC as first turn bullet magnet is a Stormwolf !!

 

Or Wulfen IN a Stormwolf. Its a russion nesting doll of toothy targets.

[Wispy]

thunderwolves are above and beyond way cooler but wulfen have better rules.

[Armchairarbiter]

So my experience... TWC are better for mashing hordes. They mesh very well with the wolf attacks. Pairing them with wolf claws or axes is great for this. If you include the wolf attacks and target them at smashing infantry, they have more attacks and do it better IMO. Especially with support from a lord and battle leader. 

 

Use Wulfen for smashing big things with thunder hammers. 

[Kasper_Hawser]

thunderwolves are above and beyond way cooler but wulfen have better rules.

 

My apologies, I really have to restrain myself from the first half of your comment, but to each his own. The second half of your comment is hands down correct though. Wulfen only real weakness is their weak armour save and T4 in my opinion. Model wise, really wish they hadn't given them paws for feet, but that's a minor gripe. 

 

Actually I wish they had a third wound, but then they would REALLY overshadow TWC in everyway. As it is, TWC only redeeming feature now is its 3 wounds, which makes them slightly less vulnerable to all the 2 damage weapons, though Wulfen still have Feel No Pain to mitigate 2 damage weapons. Don't rely on them though, it is still a 5+ save.

 

Characters on TWC on the other hand, seem to be far more efficient than the normal ones on foot. A single TWC I think is almost as much as a battle leader or lieutenant. And with bigger base of a TWC, character auras become much more bigger as well which is the other reason why thunderlords and battle leaders are still a thing.

 

For my part, I'm going back to footslogging and Rhino rush everything. 

[shanewatts]

Alrighty, it seems like the consensus is that Wulfen are better. How do you all make sure they actually get stuck in?

 

In my area the Knight meta is still a thing and anti tank is numerous so relying on transports is worrying. Cunning of the Wolf seems good, but relying on 9" charges seems like a coin toss with close to a 50/50 of success,

[Armchairarbiter]

I would like to reiterate my issue with how people are viewing the TWC vs Wulfen. In my opinion, the only reason they would compete in your list is for units that are point sinks. 

 

You need to view the TWC in conjunction with their mount. I have been running them in units of 4, pack leader and one guy with dual wolf claws and two more with a frost axe/stormshield combo. It has been quite effective so far. 

 

If you take away the thunder hammers from Wulfen and try to have them compete with TWC in the same field, I think TWC come out ahead. They have a more reliable movement range, they are tougher, more wounds, and if my math is correct more wounds. If you start adding in buffs from lords/battle leaders you have yourself a really nasty anti-infantry unit with a bucket of attacks. 

 

If you flip it, you get what everyone is talking about. Trying to stuff thunder hammers into TWC units is a bad idea. They just aren't that unit that crushes big stuff anymore. 

 

Hope I am getting my point across. Just think people need to reconsider the role of the TWC. 

 

I did some mathing - A full squad of Wulfen with frost claws kills about the same amount of MEQ (wulfen kill a bit more with full rerolls available). But they lose their stormshields and ability to deal with bigger targets reliably, making them super vulnerable compared to the TWC. Think it reinforces my idea of Wulfen being a mandatory hammer/board squad. 

[PeteySödes]

I've been liking my Stormwolf delivery. At first I played it reaaally aggressive getting way up in their face but from playing I realized its not needed. The Wulfen jumping out have ~20-24" threat range when jumping out of the boat so you dont need to get THAT close where they can double tap or swarm the disembarkation area.

 

Its certainly a big target but with Armor of contempt, Storm caller, etc, its pretty survivable. As for Cunning, It's still viable but less precise and as you say not as great of a charge chance. If you stack it with other melee threat pressure though it can still work. I still prefer the Stormwolf though, for what you get its a great value in a vehicle regardless IMO.

[thymidine]

I would like to reiterate my issue with how people are viewing the TWC vs Wulfen. In my opinion, the only reason they would compete in your list is for units that are point sinks. 

 

You need to view the TWC in conjunction with their mount. I have been running them in units of 4, pack leader and one guy with dual wolf claws and two more with a frost axe/stormshield combo. It has been quite effective so far. 

 

If you take away the thunder hammers from Wulfen and try to have them compete with TWC in the same field, I think TWC come out ahead. They have a more reliable movement range, they are tougher, more wounds, and if my math is correct more wounds. If you start adding in buffs from lords/battle leaders you have yourself a really nasty anti-infantry unit with a bucket of attacks. 

 

If you flip it, you get what everyone is talking about. Trying to stuff thunder hammers into TWC units is a bad idea. They just aren't that unit that crushes big stuff anymore. 

 

Hope I am getting my point across. Just think people need to reconsider the role of the TWC. 

 

I did some mathing - A full squad of Wulfen with frost claws kills about the same amount of MEQ (wulfen kill a bit more with full rerolls available). But they lose their stormshields and ability to deal with bigger targets reliably, making them super vulnerable compared to the TWC. Think it reinforces my idea of Wulfen being a mandatory hammer/board squad. 

 

The problem I have with this is that, while I agree that TWC are better at killing mass infantry, their primary target can just jump up 3 inches into a ruin and be completely safe from them.

[Rammael]

 

 

I agree as wolf guard with jump packs are quicker and cheaper. And with storm bolter. They can shoot and then charge and still get into buildings

[Armchairarbiter]

 

I would like to reiterate my issue with how people are viewing the TWC vs Wulfen. In my opinion, the only reason they would compete in your list is for units that are point sinks. 

 

You need to view the TWC in conjunction with their mount. I have been running them in units of 4, pack leader and one guy with dual wolf claws and two more with a frost axe/stormshield combo. It has been quite effective so far. 

 

If you take away the thunder hammers from Wulfen and try to have them compete with TWC in the same field, I think TWC come out ahead. They have a more reliable movement range, they are tougher, more wounds, and if my math is correct more wounds. If you start adding in buffs from lords/battle leaders you have yourself a really nasty anti-infantry unit with a bucket of attacks. 

 

If you flip it, you get what everyone is talking about. Trying to stuff thunder hammers into TWC units is a bad idea. They just aren't that unit that crushes big stuff anymore. 

 

Hope I am getting my point across. Just think people need to reconsider the role of the TWC. 

 

I did some mathing - A full squad of Wulfen with frost claws kills about the same amount of MEQ (wulfen kill a bit more with full rerolls available). But they lose their stormshields and ability to deal with bigger targets reliably, making them super vulnerable compared to the TWC. Think it reinforces my idea of Wulfen being a mandatory hammer/board squad. 

 

The problem I have with this is that, while I agree that TWC are better at killing mass infantry, their primary target can just jump up 3 inches into a ruin and be completely safe from them.

 

 

 

That is a great point.... why GW doesn't let cavalry move up floors is way beyond me. 

[thymidine]

 

 

 

That is a great point.... why GW doesn't let cavalry move up floors is way beyond me. 

 

 

I suspect the reason is something like this:

 

"Nigel, did you see that silly picture of a Thunderwolf balanced on the top of a building from last month's battle report?"

 

"Oh my dear, yes. How silly. Let's change that in the new edition, shall we?"

 

Notice no conversation about game balance or impact to playability. :P

[Fang_Guard23]

Thunderwolf has been reduced to the role of clean-up assistance, a fast moving unit that can smash into an enemie unit's flanks while they're already engaged in close combat fight with Grey Hunters and/or Blood Claws

[PeteySödes]

Thunderwolf has been reduced to the role of clean-up assistance, a fast moving unit that can smash into an enemie unit's flanks while they're already engaged in close combat fight with Grey Hunters and/or Blood Claws

For that role i just wish they were faster.

[Blackraw]

I'll add some considerations and the calculations I made, hopefuly it will help someone in doubt (though I think that few have the doubts left already)

Firstly, purchase-wise, tbh I would probably even want TWC, as it allows you not only to get the TWC itself, but also access WL and WGBL on Thunderwolves and two named characters (also Iron Priest on wolf, but since he's absent from codex I dunno if people play him still).

Competition-wise, Wulfen. They are just more efficient and more needed to our army. TWC is good for harassment and fighting hordes, but than again, there are ways to do it with BC or WG with packs, whilst Wulfen are very hard to replace and they get a very solid buff.

But since I believe it makes sense to compare units in the same area of application, here is my breakdown on comparison of:

6 TWC with TH/SS (396 points)
8 Wulfen (7 TH/SS + FC Leader (386 points)

I know these are not the only ways you want to run the units, but they have same main weapon, close price, so it is good to comparison. + 8 Wulfen is full capacity for Flyer.

A. Mobility

A.1. Moving between enemies - Wulfen

10" TWC v. 8-13" Wulfen (10,5" on average)

Overall I prefer flat numbers to gambling, but at the same time, in worst case scenario Wulfen will move only 2" less, but have a potential to move 3" more, and if you desperately need these extra inches, you can always double your chances with CP re-roll. That could be a pretty fair comparison if not for the fact that Wulfen have charge re-roll. So if you need to cover 18"+ distance to enemy, I would say that Wulfen have far-better chances.

A.2. Maximum out-of-fight distance - TWC

However we shall not forget that TWC can also advance, making their move 11-16" (13.5"). That would be needed in almost every Turn 1 (unless your enemy decided to get into charge-range Turn 1) and very often afterwards, since you do not want such an expensive unit to skip attacks.. But since Wulfen will rarely start the battle footslogging from your deploy zone, I would not consider this point. However, there are situation where you desperately need to move to objective where this extra 3" potential can play role.


A.3. Transport/DS opportunities - Wulfen

TWC has nothing to answer here. Wulfen can go outflank or get into LR or Stormwolf, which gives you much more tactic versatility.  The only downside is that you would want to do it with Wulfen 99% of the time, so you can consider 1CP or Transport an extra tax on Wulfen cost.

A.4. Movement Utility - Wulfen

6 big bases are good to surround enemy, however that would also make it harder to put everyone in buff aura. 
Wulfen can go into ruins to pursue infantry.

Result: Wulfen win in 3 aspects, with TWC having only one major upside - they can move to objective faster if you really want to spend so expensive unit for that purpose..

B. Attack potential

B.1. Number of attacks/Anti-horde - TWC

Wulfen: 5 FC  and 21 TH 

TWC: 18 T&C and 13 TH

31 TWC v. 26 Wulfen (+5 diff)

TWC will have 18 of their attacks hit on 2+ after charge, whilst almost all attacks of Wulfen will be 3+.

So w/o buffs, the difference in hits will be:

24 TWC v. 18 Wulfen (+6)

That would matter however only against fragile hordes - taking this set-up of TWC is not a good idea for this purpose, but even with that in mind it will have better performance.

B.2. Anti-armour potential - Wulfen

Max theoretical damage is:

57 TWC v. 68 Wulfen (-11)

If we consider only TH damage, which has a much more odds to grant a wound than FC/T&C:

39 TWC v. 63 Wulfen (-24) (Wulfen has 62% TH hits)

Morever, it is 8S against 10S, which will give 33% more wounds on 8T and 25% more wounds on 10T.

So if we calculcate not theoretical, but actual damage on 8T model

A single hit of TH from TWC will give 0.5 wounds (wounding on 4+)
For that hit Wulfen will give 1.62 hits (due to 62% more attacks), which (wounding on 3+) is 1.08 wounds.

So AA-wise, Wulfen have their TH more than twice effective!!

Result: Wulfen are far superior in AA, whilst TWC does slightly better against-hordes. If we switch TWC to chainswords, they will get total attack number to 37, it will cost 300 points so you will have to reduce number of Wulfen to 6 for comparison which is already 20 attacks in total. So that will be a significant difference for anti-horde. But yet again, I see no point in comparing units kitted for different purpose.

C. Survivability

 

C.1. Wounds - Wulfen
 

In sheer numbers Wulfen will have 16 wounds against 18 of TWC. Not such a big difference.

When we come to FNP, and suggest that our units are being hit by 1W attacks, Wulfen will have 24W efficiently (24x 1W hits will result into 16 unsaved)

(yet again in anti-horde set-up, it will be 18 v. 18)

C. 2. Practical Survivability - Even

There are many situations where Wulfen will show decent survivability - e.g. FNP works against mortal wounds, thus giving better defense against Smites.
A TH unsaved hit will 100% kill TWC, and Wulfen has some odds to endure it if he hits 2 5-6 out of 3 dice. 
At the same time a 4T Wullfen will face 50% more wounds from 4/0/1 than 5T TWC, which again helps TWC to deal with infantry. (and also +25% wounds from 8S)
TWC has also less odds to run-away due to higher Ld and lesser models in units.
Wulfen can go to ruins to get +1 safe, but they do not need it as they are 4+/3++, at the same time TWC can theoretically get cover and become 2+ against 0AP, which again underline their anti-horde potential.
TWC can get more benefit from healing balm.

Result: Wulfen are better in this set-up comparison. It evens out when we compare TWC kitted for anti-horde.

D. Synergy

D.1. Giving out buffs - Wulfen

Wulfen get their own buffs - death frenzy and charge re-roll + they buffs other units and have fantastic 12" buff for BC.

TWC does nothing, safe for being a WG unit near BC to protect them from auto-charge.

D.2. Benefit from re-roll buffs

Hit-wise, Wulfen needs it more, because with Hunter Unleashed half of TWC attacks is 2+ (and even all in anti-horde setup).

Wound-wise, TWC needs it more, since Wulfen has higher S against 5/8T models and built-in re-roll for FC leader.

Result: Wulfen win uncontested in buffs discipline.


So as you can see, if you need heavy-hitting, Wulfen will be more survivable, mobile, hard-hitting and useful unit. If you need horde-harassment, than I would rather kit TWC for this purpose and think of comparing them with other infantry options, leaving Wulfen to do their job. But even in this case, I would only consider TWC to supplement rather than replace. Because TWC for anti-horde will be no use against hard cans, whilst anti-armour Wulfen can still do damage to hordes and also buff your other units!

 

[Kallas]

A note about survivability: TWC have a base Sv3+, which means cover (hard for Cavalry normally, but Storm Caller is good) will make them very resistant to small arms (ie, AP0).

 

I do think that TWC should double down on their anti-infantry power: so Wolf Claws, Frost Swords/Axes, Chainswords, Bolters, etc.

 

They'd also work alongside Wulfen - Wulfen for anti-tank, TWC for horde shredding. The TWC would also, using their bigger bases, be capable of literally blocking ranged LOS and melee counters to the Wulfen - with a Storm Shield or two, they'd be capable of withstanding a decent beating to deliver the Wulfen to their target.