Improving (all) Marines

[Iron_Within]

I think we cannot get away from the fact that Power armour isn't what it once was, hordes are massively favoured in this edition and power armour doesn't do enough anymore with AP. I think it's clear that GW has overestimated the value of 3+ armour. On top of that, Tacticals (and their equivalents) are particularly poor in this edition throughout all books. So, I have a few ideas to generally improve things

 

Armoured Ceremite: Ceremite that comprises of some of most effective material available for armour within the Galaxy.

Units with this special rule may re-roll natural "1's" when making armour saving throws.

Who this applies to: All units in power armour, Terminator armour and variants. All Space Marine Vehicles with armour saves of 3+ or better.

 

This is effectively armour 2.5 in terms of saves. Terminators become almost proof to small arms (like they should be) but vulnerable to heavy fire still (being slightly better of with armour against -3 saves). Marines in cover become a nightmare. Effectively, this improves Space marines against massed small arms but they're still vulnerable to heavy weapons.

 

Fury of the Chapter/Damned: All Astartes are highly trained with bolters, able to focus fire on the greatest dangers to the unit.
Units with this special rule may fire a Bolt gun twice as long as they target the closest enemy unitl

 

This makes Space Marine bolter marines nasty at close range, but it's a highly tactical ability that your opponent is able to block creating an agony of choice scenario. No this doesn't apply for overwatch.

 

I personally think that Chapter/Legion Traits should apply to all units.

Lastly Power of the Machine spirit (and infernal Chaos equivalent) should apply to all Space Marine units - Space Marines are mobile, and this makes them so.

[Vykes]

What can I say, I really like these quite a bit, particularly the psuedo fire-frenzy "Fury" rule.  The only thing I'd add is increase the base tactical/csm attack to 2 to make them feel like the warriors they're supposed to be, still not godlings but good enough to to not be totally bogged down in close combat against hordes of scum which is otherwise a problem. 

[Quixus]

I like it as well. Bolt weapons should be at least AP -1 though.

 

It is never going to happen because GW does not make rules for stuff that is not in the box, but I think they should bring back the boltgun and chainsword on Tacticals and give that option to assault marines.

[Vykes]

Hmm, chain swords are an option on their mk. III and mk. IV tactical sets, though. So it's not an unreasonable leap to use those as option precedents in addition to the combat blades and the like on the standard marine, Blood Angel, and Chaos Space Marine sprues. Especially as Chaos Space Marines had the option of bolt pistol+close combat weapon for as many editions back as I can recall, an option which disappeared in 8th.  

 

I'd definitely agree with bolt being Ap -1, or even just Ap-1 on 6's.... but one step at a time, eh? 

[Quixus]

Hmm, chain swords are an option on their mk. III and mk. IV tactical sets, though. So it's not an unreasonable leap to use those as option precedents in addition to the combat blades and the like on the standard marine, Blood Angel, and Chaos Space Marine sprues. Especially as Chaos Space Marines had the option of bolt pistol+close combat weapon for as many editions back as I can recall, an option which disappeared in 8th. 

I am not talking about a chainsword and a bolt pistol (which is still avalailable to CSM) but a chainsword and a boltgun so rapid fire 1 and melee not pistol 1 and melee. And of course since combat blades and chainswords are functionally identical a combat blade for the tacticals would also work. Now whether they should be equal...

[Iron_Within]

I have a lot of ideas for these - I was just restricting this post to these first 3 ideas I had.  I have ideas for other things too.

 

The general principle behind these ideas were they were ones that could be quickly tacked onto existing rules without contradicting existing rules. This is also so those wanting to play a more themed army and wants to play these rules has them more viable rather than auto lose. In an ideal world Bolt Guns would have -1 AP but that steps on the toes of Intercessors and would have more resistance IMO.

Yes I agree that Tacticals/Chaos Space Marine Units should have access to chainswords/CCW. However different access. Chaos Space Marines I believe should have chainswords, Bolt Pistol and Bolter as stock. 

 

Tacticals, I have a couple of ideas. Firstly I think that tacticals should have limited access - this would be a design choice showing the focus of some chapters at flexibility and others with close quarter warfare. The alternative is to have Chainswords on tacticals for +1 point per model and leave it to the player. The big problem you have with tacticals having CC ability is you further invalidate the point of Assault marines - but I have a number of ideas of how to support Assault marines and make them viable.

 

The other thing that bothers me, Chaos Space Marine units can deploy in units up to 20 in size, however there is absolutely no incentive to do. I would introduce two changes. 1) special/Heavy weapon per 5 models. 2) If this unit numbers more than 10 models it gains +1 to hit. 

I would love to introduce a rule for 10 man tacticals however I was having a hard time coming up with one.

 

Firstly - a points drop for them, just a single point drop per model, it is pretty straight forward. Second, allow them to reroll failed charges, this gives them a difference to Bikes (more on them later) Then introduce a new rule for assault marines (and Raptors/Warp Talons really)

 

Crushing Charge: Units with this ability use their jump packs on the charge to inflict crushing damage to an enemy unit.

When a unit with this ability charges, every model that makes it into base contact with enemy units inflict a mortal wound on 4+

 

Just quickly on bikes, reintroduce their old role:

Outriders: Units with this special ability when deploying from reserve may deploy from any board edge, as long as they stay 9" away from enemy models when they deploy.

[Vykes]

Yep, the old options for CSM gave them bolters and bolt pistols with a choice to add a chainsword to the mix as an upgrade.  Having an option to simply replace the bolt pistol with a chainsword is a pretty easy one and kinda currently how its worded for CSM at least as far as bolters to chainswords is concerned.  Likewise, the kits support the option, only the rules don't at this time (all mk. III sets come with enough parts for bolters, bolt pistols, and/or chainswords.  Mk. IV come with enough combat blades to cover the squad).  Unfortunately, the 8E index took the upgrade option away and it didn't turn up in the codex options which is a shame.  

 

So aye, the kits support it (if we include combat blades for bog standard tacticals) the old stuff is a bit of a precedent, it really is a weird bit that feels missing.  

 

Aye, likewise I kinda wondered if chainswords should have been AP -1 or that 'sort of' rending and keeping them separate from close combat blades.  That might infringe on the Chain Axes, but is +1 str. worth +1 attack is at least an interesting question. 

 

Post Scriptum: ya got me right when I was posting there, Iron_Within, mate. 

 

Aye, 'tis a good set of ideas Iron my dude.

 

Without changing the existing balance of weapons (intercessors getting that extra 6” range and the ability to take the auxiliary grenades is a pretty big difference that can play to a different engagement plan compared to tacticals, at least for me) or equipment and seeing the cascade effect potentially take place. So, I do think adding a few tactical/CSM squad based special rules would work.

 

CSM and standard Astartes tacticals really should either get that +1 attack boost or the option of a combat blade/chainsword to give them that option. I do agree that with that it might further isolate assault marines/raptors, but then again, giving a group like that access to a +1 to hit on a charge, or the ability to fall back and charge (like the Sanguinor Avenging Angel rule) would at least promote their use as a dynamic attack oriented group while the Fury rule would allow tacticals/CSM to present a more defensive posture. Though I'm quite content with Crushing Charge for Assult Marines/Vanguards and Raptors/Talons.

 

I almost always deploy my Chaos Space Marines in 20's, if only to take advantage of the strategems which far better suit large units than minimal sized ones. It looks good, the stratagems work a little better, but they are massive targets.

 

I do rather like the Outrider rule, feels pretty decent to me if it operates like the other reserve rules.

[Quixus]

The other thing that bothers me, Chaos Space Marine units can deploy in units up to 20 in size, however there is absolutely no incentive to do. I would introduce two changes. 1) special/Heavy weapon per 5 models. 2) If this unit numbers more than 10 models it gains +1 to hit.

I'd simply go with an extra shot at any range.

 

I would love to introduce a rule for 10 man tacticals however I was having a hard time coming up with one.

Fury of the Legion for those equipped with Boltguns.

 

Firstly - a points drop for them, just a single point drop per model, it is pretty straight forward. Second, allow them to reroll failed charges, this gives them a difference to Bikes (more on them later) Then introduce a new rule for assault marines (and Raptors/Warp Talons really)

 

Crushing Charge: Units with this ability use their jump packs on the charge to inflict crushing damage to an enemy unit.

When a unit with this ability charges, every model that makes it into base contact with enemy units inflict a mortal wound on 4+

yeah! That's what made Thaddeus in Dow 2 and the parts with the Jump Pack in Space Marine so much fun. Instead of mortal wound spam, a morale penalty of the charge distance/2 might also be a nice idea, simulating the confusion and havoc cavalry jump troops wreak among the enemy lines.

 

Just quickly on bikes, reintroduce their old role:

Outriders: Units with this special ability when deploying from reserve may deploy from any board edge, as long as they stay 9" away from enemy models when they deploy.

I like it.

[Iron_Within]

Yeah I was thinking of DoW when writing the rules and I've noticed parallels with rules writing, aura abilities and DoW ad some other games from GW playing out a bit in 8th edition.

 

The visual I have of Assault Marines charging is them activating their jump packs and rather than going up, they propel themselves forward like a missile (which I think is what Thadeus did).

 

While the idea of morale is a cool one (We are fear itself!) I don't agree with your suggestion of how to implement it. One reason for this is morale is a severely overrated in 40k with most having a counter to it, unless GW made it more a "thing" it has limited utility. The second is making assault marines inflict a -2 on morale means Raptors now inflict a -3 because they already inflict a -1, as Night Lords they'd be inflicting -4, Nurgle Night Lords -5, going up to -10 or something silly with multiple units, those units that are affected by morale would be greatly affected and those that aren't render this entirely unit.

 

While these are major issues, the core issue isn't to do with mechanics or meta or anything like that, it's battlefield role. Assault Marines (and Raptors) need a specific purpose. I do not think "they get in combat faster and have slightly above average fighting ability" is really a viable option for well any unit in the marine codex. The Assault Marine has a role, but we fluff it with other things. It's not a terror role, that's Reivers, it's not fast moving scouts/outflankers, that's bikes and scouts. Similarly they cannot step on the toes of other units in other codexes, we can say that Banshee's and Assault Marines do similar things (move fast and are best in combat) but they have to be "bettter than others" in certain roles. This Blathering gets me to my point of What, Assault Marines are for. They're shock troops, but they are tactical, targetted strikes, they're not a blender like a Khorne Berzerker, they're not Genestealers, or any other "blender" unit, their Unique selling point IMO is the ability to do targeted strikes and flexibility better than any other unit.

In crunch, the best idea I can come up with is mortal wounds on the charge, this is because these hurt everything, but a 5 man unit can inflict a max of 5 mortal wounds, that is "okay" but it isn't amazing, and that's the point - against heavy armour multi wound target they strip wounds and tie them up (and shove a melta bomb on it*), against hordes, mortals don't do much, but they add to the chainswords attacks, 11 attacks has become potentially 16 wounds. So here is a slight alternative to the above rule:

 

Crushing Charge: Assault Marines are trained to ignite their jump packs when charging, turning them into a devastating missile of righteous fury

Units with this special rule roll 3D6" when charging and gain +1 Strength in the Fight Phase. In addition, all models that make it into base to base contact with an enemy unit roll a D6, on a 4+ they inflict a mortal wound on the enemy unit.

 

So the 3D6" is instead of re-rolling charges - I realised this would step on the toes of too many other things - like Khorne Icons of Wrath. It also makes charging from Deep Strike an option but in a limited capacity. They can hurt everything but in a limited capacity. The +1 Strength was an idea I had on the fly, I have figured that something flying into combat like a missile likely adds some momentum to your chainsword swings... It also is intended to pair well with Blood Angels, as it's their thing, Regular Assault marines wound Orks for example on a 2+ on the charge.

[L30n1d4s]

What about the following for Assault Marines/Raptors/all Astartes units with a Jump Pack:

 

1) Always Charge 6 + D6", representing their enhanced mobility and greater reliability when trying to make a charge.

 

2) On a turn they successfully charged or Heroically Intervened, all to Wound rolls of 6+ inflict a Mortal Wound in addition to any "normal" damage that these attacks might cause.

 

I think these two rules do a decent job of reflecting the speed/furiosity of a charge by Jump Pack Astartes, give them some solid "teeth" as assault troops, and benefit all kinds of Jump Pack based units (i.e. ASM, Vanguard Vets, Sanguinary Guard, Death Company with JPs, Sky Claws, Warp Talons, Raptors, etc., etc.).

 

Thoughts?

[Iron_Within]

What about the following for Assault Marines/Raptors/all Astartes units with a Jump Pack:

 

1) Always Charge 6 + D6", representing their enhanced mobility and greater reliability when trying to make a charge.

 

2) On a turn they successfully charged or Heroically Intervened, all to Wound rolls of 6+ inflict a Mortal Wound in addition to any "normal" damage that these attacks might cause.

 

I think these two rules do a decent job of reflecting the speed/furiosity of a charge by Jump Pack Astartes, give them some solid "teeth" as assault troops, and benefit all kinds of Jump Pack based units (i.e. ASM, Vanguard Vets, Sanguinary Guard, Death Company with JPs, Sky Claws, Warp Talons, Raptors, etc., etc.).

 

Thoughts?

 

1) So on one hand I like it, on the other hand it runs contrary to the designs of 40k - which is no matter what you can still be victim of the dice gods. The problem it's too reliable, you cannot pull off a spectacular charge or failure (triple 1 on 3 dice, the pain is real).

 

2) I really liked this when I first saw it, I think it works better in ways to my initial idea. However the main problem I see is a power fist model. This on one hand might not be a problem in some ways as others do the similar thing (Death to the false Emperor for example). However the problem I have with this, and now the problem I have with my own is what is the Assault doing when we are applying these rules. Going back to Death to the False Emperor, this through rules represents the visual of the CSM pouring their absolute hatred for the Imperium into their attacks and it becomes wild and furious hacking and slashing intent on murder. What the Assault Marine is doing is using their jump pack to put all their weight behind a single charging attack (and then the normal flurry of Blows). With that visual the Power fist marine should be more likely to inflict extra damage, not less. I mean the visual of an assault marine shoryuken'ing the head of a Knight will always be cool and I refuse to let go of that.

 

Swinging back a bit, it seems that everyone really likes the idea of Armoured Ceremite, Fury of the Legion/Chapter and adding PotMS to everything?

 

I have ideas on Tacticals, I don't think adding an extra shot at any range is the way to go as that negates the tactical restrictions of it and steps on the toes of other units (and potential Strategems). I haven't got truly solid ideas yet. The core thing should be though that tacticals are highly flexible and good in any role to a degree but I think should be a force multiplier for that reason - my thoughts are initially that a full strength squad - if it inflicts a wound, all other units from the Chapter targeting that same unit gain +1 to hit or Wound (undecided which). This represents that Devastators and ASsault marines are actually more inexperienced than tacticals and are taking their lead on prime targets. One could argue this steps on the toes of Sternguard but I think they are there for different things.

 

I might create a new threw for different things and try and keep this thread for the first 3 suggested changes/

[L30n1d4s]

@Iron-Within

 

I get what you are saying about 6 + D6" being too reliable compared to how the rest of 40K is played... that said, there is precedent for "enhanced reliability charges" like this in a number of different areas of the game right now, be it Daemons getting +1" to their charge range with an Instrument, numerous special rules/faction abolities that allow units to charge after advancing, the new Ork Evil Sunz kultur that gives +1 to all Advance and Charge distances (on top of rerolling failed charges with 'Ere we go!), Imperial Knights that add +2" to their charge distance with the right WL trait, Necron's My Will Be Done that adds +1" to all charge distances, etc., etc.

 

Perhaps something simpler/tamer, like units with Jump Packs add +1" to all their charge distances would work, while not making Blood Angel's 3D6" charge Strat irrelevant.

 

On your second point, I am afraid I don't see how PFs are handicapped with the ability to inflict MWs on any 6+s to Wound on a turn that their Jump Pack Model charges or does a HI.... PFs have a -1 to Hit, but not to Wound, so they should be just as likely as any other type if melee weapon to generate these "bonus" MWs on the charge.

[Quixus]

While I like improving the charge of a jump pack unit, I find it ridiculous that falling on enemies is more effective than using weapons on them.

[Iron_Within]

While I like improving the charge of a jump pack unit, I find it ridiculous that falling on enemies is more effective than using weapons on them.

I'm sorry haven't explained the visual of it correctly if that is the image you have - it's more like the Assault Marine uses their jump pack to propel a sword thrust or cut forward, giving it far more power than it normally would have. This is why I am currently twoing and frowing over it, because it doesn't represent how much more powerful a Assault Marine Sergeant in a jump pack powered right hook with a power fist would be, so that's why I'm having a bit of a rethink.

[Quixus]

I was thinking about

.

[Iron_Within]

Yeah so that is certainly how I'd imagine it attacking lightly armed/armoured individuals like Orks/Imperial Guard/ Cultists etc. where the weight of a 1 tonne marine&armour would make a horrible mess. However at the same time it doesn't show how an Assault Marine would propel himself sword tip first at a more heavily armoured target.

 

Ofc. We haven't even mentioned how Melta Bombs, a key thing in previous editions have been rendered useless.

[Slasher956]

one question though... would your imprement to power armour be ALL power armoured units?  Including SoB & Inqs?  (which it should :p)

[Frostglaive]

Here is my two cents on improving Marines:

 

- The Armoured Ceramite suggestion. That'd make power armour much more viable than it is now. At the bare minimum, put this on Terminator and Gravis armour.

- Power of the Machine Spirit for all vehicles. It makes no sense that most of their vehicles do not get that.

- Terminators get +1 Toughness.

- Terminators and Assault Terminators should be combined into one datasheet. Any model can take any legal combination of their wargear.

- I like the idea of replacing a bolt pistol with a chainsword for free on Tactical Marines, or adding a chainsword for +1pt, just like the Chaos Marines.

- Rhinos and Drop Pods should be allowed to carry Primaris Marines. Give them the bulky keyword so they take up 2 slots instead of one if you have to.

- Drop Pods. Have them deep strike more than 9" away like they are now, but allow the models inside to disembark up to 3" in any direction, including closer to the enemy. There is no good reason why they should have to also remain more than 9" away. This would make Drop Pods viable again, but not as horrendous as they were back in 7th.

- Chapter Tactics should be applied to ALL Marine units, not just Infantry, Bikes and Dreads. Makes no sense that a tank driver somehow forgets that he's a Salamander or whatever.

- Boltguns should be AP-1, or at the very least AP-1 on a wound of a 6. Bolt Rifles can be AP-2 on a wound of a 6.

- Primaris characters should be allowed the same wargear options as their non-Primaris counterparts. Why shouldn't the oversized Captain not be allowed a storm shield and relic blade like his shorter, older brother? Or a tall Librarian not being allowed a stave or plasma pistol.

- Assault Marines and Vanguard Veterans should have +1 additional Attack.

- Devastators should be allowed to reroll 1's to hit, like their Long Fang brothers in the Space Wolves.

- If nothing else, if no other suggestion gets taken into account, GW could always just give marines across the board +1 Attack and +1 Wound and remain the same point cost. Easy patch to the army, and it'd be quite useful.

[Iron_Within]

one question though... would your imprement to power armour be ALL power armoured units?  Including SoB & Inqs?  (which it should )

 

Yes that was precisely my thought

 

Here is my two cents on improving Marines:

 

- The Armoured Ceramite suggestion. That'd make power armour much more viable than it is now. At the bare minimum, put this on Terminator and Gravis armour.

- Power of the Machine Spirit for all vehicles. It makes no sense that most of their vehicles do not get that.

- Terminators get +1 Toughness.

- Terminators and Assault Terminators should be combined into one datasheet. Any model can take any legal combination of their wargear.

- I like the idea of replacing a bolt pistol with a chainsword for free on Tactical Marines, or adding a chainsword for +1pt, just like the Chaos Marines.

- Rhinos and Drop Pods should be allowed to carry Primaris Marines. Give them the bulky keyword so they take up 2 slots instead of one if you have to.

- Drop Pods. Have them deep strike more than 9" away like they are now, but allow the models inside to disembark up to 3" in any direction, including closer to the enemy. There is no good reason why they should have to also remain more than 9" away. This would make Drop Pods viable again, but not as horrendous as they were back in 7th.

- Chapter Tactics should be applied to ALL Marine units, not just Infantry, Bikes and Dreads. Makes no sense that a tank driver somehow forgets that he's a Salamander or whatever.

- Boltguns should be AP-1, or at the very least AP-1 on a wound of a 6. Bolt Rifles can be AP-2 on a wound of a 6.

- Primaris characters should be allowed the same wargear options as their non-Primaris counterparts. Why shouldn't the oversized Captain not be allowed a storm shield and relic blade like his shorter, older brother? Or a tall Librarian not being allowed a stave or plasma pistol.

- Assault Marines and Vanguard Veterans should have +1 additional Attack.

- Devastators should be allowed to reroll 1's to hit, like their Long Fang brothers in the Space Wolves.

- If nothing else, if no other suggestion gets taken into account, GW could always just give marines across the board +1 Attack and +1 Wound and remain the same point cost. Easy patch to the army, and it'd be quite useful.

1. Yes, having it apply to anything with a 3+ or better armour save was the idea, including vehicles. So that would apply to Gravis, Terminator armour and variants. Basically represents Space Marine armour using higher quality materials. Sorry I wasn't clear on that.
2. Agreed - they're meant to be a fast shock force in all iterations (loyalist and Chaos - even Iron Warriors and defensive Imperial Fists move fast when they go on the attack). ATM in crunch a Leman Russ is faster....
3. I'm not sure about +1 Toughness, not saying agree or disagree. This would put Blighlords at T6. Do you mean +1 Toughness in addition to the Armoured Ceremite rule? 
4. I feel this would be a way of incorporating the sneaky Stormshield into regular shooting Terminator squads. I feel this takes away from the advantages of the Chaos side over the Space Marine side - that being flexibility. Personally I don't like the Shield rules - they grant too powerful of a save for what they are (as they are a powered slab of metal, they are better than a 360 degree covering conversion field. Personally I would have Stormshields only apply to combat and buff other areas (or reduce points). But TBH I don't really want to get too much into that as it's not really a discussion for here.
5. I feel that Primaris not have access to these things is purely a marketing decision. I think in time it will change. But we'll see.
6. Chapter/Legion Tactics - yeah I mentioned that in the opening post. I feel they changed their design philosophy over it after SM/CSM codexes as AM didn't have that restriction.
7. Problem is with AP-1 is you're treading too heavily on other areas and so you'd need a whole redesign of the weapons to compensate. It's a rabbit hole basically and I can see why GW wouldn't do it.
8. Primaris not having options of their regular Marines counterparts is again a business decision - no model no rules. Plus it's making them distinct from one another which I can understand. Generally why I wrote this is Space Marines (and CSM) are terrible at what they are thematically meant to do so I came up with these ideas as a why to make them more ironically marines, not really to counter GW Business decisions.
9. I'm still rethinking Assault Marines
10. Devastators: This is the only thing you've stated I seriously disagree on. Devastator Marines are less experienced Space Marines  that serve Devastators before going Tactical, Long Fangs are ancient veterans with hundreds upon hundreds of years experience. The re-rolling ones represents this veteran knowledge that split fire in 7th edition represented. Take it away and you steal the flavour from Space Wolves. Personally I would bring Long Fangs up to 2+ BS and remove reroll 1's, but again I think that's a conversation for elsewhere.

[Slasher956]

RE: No.3.... Why should DG Termies get a +1 Toughness?  they are a different datasheet so would need an errata to change anyway so you can give them a 're-roll 1s' on their Desgusting Resisliance rolls to make them the equivalent of T5.5

[Iron_Within]

Because if you're making T+1 a feature of terminator armour you have to apply equally to all iterations to maintain consistency in rules

[Slasher956]

But are you making it part of the armour or are you just updating the stat line which includes the models base toughness?.... If its part of the armour then you saying that INQs in Terminator armour should be T4?

 

plus the whole 1-10 scale doesnt have much granularity so thats why I said about changing another rule to give you that 5.5 toughness

[Iron_Within]

Part of the armour, but I so not believe it is necessary. Re rolling 1s on armour is sufficient for terminators imo, it means that instead of 1 in 6 suffering a wound it would go to 1 in 36.

[Quixus]

Part of the armour, but I so not believe it is necessary. Re rolling 1s on armour is sufficient for terminators imo, it means that instead of 1 in 6 suffering a wound it would go to 1 in 36.

For AP - that is. the odds get worse as soon as the attack has AP.

[Iron_Within]

Yes but that's the point, heavier weapons are better at punching through that armour