Let's Play Stupid: Land Raider Excelsior

[Kallas]

I've been toying with idea for the utter ridiculous hilarity of it. I'll happily preface that this is probably a super dumb idea, but it does seem like it could be hilarious were it to all work out.

 

So, the general idea revolves around, you guessed it: the Land Raider Excelsior.

 

Here's the unit basis for the idea:

• Land Raider Excelsior, with all the trimmings (Combi-Plasma, HKM, Multi-melta, Storm Bolter - the works!)
• Rhino Primaris
• Wolf Priest

The Excelsior itself is not particularly impressive:

• it has a Grav-cannon instead of a Twin Heavy Bolter;
• it can take a few additional pintle weapons;
• it has a 5+ Invulnerable natively;
• it has a Wolf Lord's reroll 1s to hit aura;
• and it gets +1 to hit when shooting if a Rhino Primaris is within 24";
• it has the CHARACTER keyword (but has 16W, so will be targetable, of course)

So, uh, what's my point? Let's get stupid!

 

The last point of the above list is the key one: it's a character. That brings a few things to the table:

• It can be the Warlord
• It can take Relics (even despite the latest FAQ saying that the Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought cannot!)
• It is a character for certain stratagems

How do all of these add up to make something stupidly funny? Let me elaborate:

1. We'll make it our Warlord, and give it the Saga of the Beastslayer. Its Lascannons are now wounding 99% of things on a 2+; the Melta and HKM on 2/3+; the Grav wounds most Vehicles/Monsters on a 4+; Plasma on a 2-4+; and even the (Storm) Bolter on a 4+.
2. We've got the Rhino Primaris, so it's now hitting on a 2+, and it's safe to Supercharge the Plasma without risk of insta-death; and the RhP can add another +1 from its Servo-skull Hub in case of further negative modifiers, or it can heal it for 1W per turn (which isn't much, but might as well!) It can utilise Keen Senses, too, if there are a lot of negative hit modifiers.
3. It has native reroll 1s to hit, so it's hitting 97% of the time and wounding a lot of things very well.
4. The Wolf Priest is there to provide some wonderful Mentor's Guidance: for 1CP it can let any Space Wolves Character, reroll wound rolls during your Shooting Phase (or any Fight Phase, but that's not what we're here for!)
5. So now the LRE is hitting on 2+ (rr1s) and wounding on 2-4+ (rrAll) against Vehicles/Monsters (and against non-V/Ms, it's still hitting accurately with full rerolls).
6. It can use Armour of Contempt to counteract Mortal Wounds (which is why we didn't take Saga of the Bear - 1CP for 5+ FNP is way better than the crappy 6+ FNP and no other Warlord Trait!)
7. If we include a Rune Priest (and we really should!) it can benefit from Storm Caller (to get a 1+ save, effectively the same as a 4++ vs Lascannons!) and Cloaked by the Storm, for some extra resilience.
8. This would also open up Chooser of the Slain, so that anything that drops in to try and murder it will have to consider being shot by it first!
9. If we really wanted to go crazy, we could pile on a regular Librarian and slap on Might of Heroes to make it T9!
10. Finally: if it dies it can use Only In Death Does Duty End - allowing it to make a full range of shooting attacks before it dies! It'll be on its lowest profile, of course, but if the RhP is still around (and with the LRE being such a fire magnet, it'll likely be around when the LRE dies) then it'll still be hitting on 4+

And that's the idea! I know it's kind of stupid, but it does sound quite hilarious.

 

It's worth noting that a lot of the various buffs on it can still function without the LRE itself. The RhP is still able to provide its +1 to hit buff, which would go nicely with Wulfen, Stormwolves, Long Fangs, etc; the Wolf Priest can still buff up Wulfen and a Smashface Wolf Lord; the Rune Priest's buffs are still great for anything else in the list; and so on, so it's not entirely a one-trick pony!

 

For a proper list, I think it could actually kind of function reasonably well with some other things alongside it to take some of the heat off of it: a Land Raider Crusader or Stormwolf with Wulfen packed inside is also a hell of a threat, and even with both of those threats you'd still be able to pack in six troops to fill out a double Battalion for the much needed CPs to run it (and you could go with the Loyal 32 for some more, plus screening elements).

 

So, what do people think?

• Is it viable at all, or just a funny thought experiment?
• Is it worth investing that much into one model, especially when so many high invulnerable saves are floating about?

Anyway, that was my idea, please let me know how silly of an idea it was - if you can top it, definitely tell me!

[Kasper_Hawser]

Oh dear Lord God almighty.... that is just so stupidly VIABLE! Only thing is... i don't have an excelsior. Or a Rhino Primaris.

 

Sorry, can't think of any other "Stupid" (which really means ingenious in case my sarcasm doesn't translate in above line) ways to stomp my opponents.

 

One thing to note though: can a Space Marine Librarian (or any other Librarian from other SM codexes), cast their buffs on Space Wolves units?

[Kallas]

Oh dear Lord God almighty.... that is just so stupidly VIABLE! Only thing is... i don't have an excelsior. Or a Rhino Primaris.

 

Sorry, can't think of any other "Stupid" (which really means ingenious in case my sarcasm doesn't translate in above line) ways to stomp my opponents.

 

One thing to note though: can a Space Marine Librarian (or any other Librarian from other SM codexes), cast their buffs on Space Wolves units?

You can always convert one up! That's my plan: have a Grav-Cannon and the extras available for when I get my Land Raiders. Yes, plural 

 

For Librarians: Yes! The standard Librarius discipline targets ADEPTUS ASTARTES models/units, which Space Wolves are.  Contrasted with the Wolf/DAngel/BAngel powers which all specify the particular Chapter. It's an option, but it's potentially expensive to bring them in (either an Auxiliary Detachment, or multiple units in another detachment).

[Xenith]

Hilarious, as ever.

 

I love the CHARACTER Land Raider. I have one for my BA waiting on Sprues.

 

2+ to hit from the Rhino Primaris with reroll 1's from the captain is glorious. BA have an 'ignore wounds on 6's' ability and it can take the Veritas Vitae to regen CP. 

 

Fewer interactions with other BA models than you can achieve with SW, though. I'd be keen to see how it performs. 

 

I'd be using it as the HQ choice in an armoured fist list.

[Kallas]

Hilarious, as ever.

 

I love the CHARACTER Land Raider. I have one for my BA waiting on Sprues.

 

2+ to hit from the Rhino Primaris with reroll 1's from the captain is glorious. BA have an 'ignore wounds on 6's' ability and it can take the Veritas Vitae to regen CP. 

 

Fewer interactions with other BA models than you can achieve with SW, though. I'd be keen to see how it performs. 

 

I'd be using it as the HQ choice in an armoured fist list.

Don't forget, it brings its own reroll 1s aura!

 

And yeah, I think it'd work best when run alongside other armour options. A Vindicator Linebreaker squadron, a Predator Killshot, Rhinos/Razorbacks, etc. Space Wolves and Blood Angels can both run a decent variety of Dreadnoughts, too, who could be good, aggressive distractions: Wulfen Axe/Shield Dreadnoughts could be very solid for taking heat away from it, as they're not things that can be ignored lightly!

[Charlo]

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

1. We've got the Rhino Primaris, so it's now hitting on a 2+, and it's safe to Supercharge the Plasma without risk of insta-death; and the RhP can add another +1 from its Servo-skull Hub in case of further negative modifiers, or it can heal it for 1W per turn (which isn't much, but might as well!) It can utilise Keen Senses, too, if there are a lot of negative hit modifiers.

 

Sorry if this has been discussed to death, but I thought a "natural roll of one" will always be a miss or fail, regardless of modifiers. At least it is for armour save to prevent 1+ save nonsense. Not sure about shooting, but I consider it balance, otherwise some factions will NEVER kill themselves with overcharged weaponry.

 

Personally, as long as we're on this "stupid" train, I suggest loading the Land Raider Excelsior with 5 Multimelta Long Fangs. Or better yet, 2 squads of Long Fangs with 4 Multi meltas each. Actually scratch that, Lascannon is just as good.

[jerrys]

I guess if you wanted to spend more on it, you could have an iron priest stand behind it (so then it's healing D3+1 per turn instead of 1).

[Shas Oh Dear]

I've been testing this combo out quite a bit recently and I really like it. It has a lot of synergy with all of its various elements. It sort of functions like a light-Knight. I ran an iron priest and at the end of the game the raider was only shy 2 wounds. The full reroll to wounds plus beastslayer means that the grav cannon is a threat. It killed a Leman Russ in cover in a single turn without breaking a sweat. Because it can so easily kill vehicles/monsters at range beastslayer becomes an aura quite easily which means your lascanon long fangs will quickly start wounding on 2's too. I had a 5 man wulfen squad inside which got out when ready and benefited from the Wolf priests reroll to hit to mulch everything else.

[Kallas]

Sorry if this has been discussed to death, but I thought a "natural roll of one" will always be a miss or fail, regardless of modifiers. At least it is for armour save to prevent 1+ save nonsense. Not sure about shooting, but I consider it balance, otherwise some factions will NEVER kill themselves with overcharged weaponry.

 

Personally, as long as we're on this "stupid" train, I suggest loading the Land Raider Excelsior with 5 Multimelta Long Fangs. Or better yet, 2 squads of Long Fangs with 4 Multi meltas each. Actually scratch that, Lascannon is just as good.

I 1 will still miss, but since the modifier makes it a '2', it's no longer overheating: Plasma overheats on a final result of 1 (and <1=1); misses always happen on a natural 1 - if that makes sense!

 

Lascannons are better than Multi-meltas 99% of the time, just because S9 >>> AP-4/Melta. If I were to load up with Long Fangs, I might suggest two units of 5, with 4 Heavy Bolters in each: Heavy Bolters will work great for helping to keep hordes away (which the Excelsior is pretty allergic to), and if Beastslayer becomes active then they're wounding most Vehicles/Monsters on a 4+, so they'd be servicable supporting fire!

 

I've been testing this combo out quite a bit recently and I really like it. It has a lot of synergy with all of its various elements. It sort of functions like a light-Knight. I ran an iron priest and at the end of the game the raider was only shy 2 wounds. The full reroll to wounds plus beastslayer means that the grav cannon is a threat. It killed a Leman Russ in cover in a single turn without breaking a sweat. Because it can so easily kill vehicles/monsters at range beastslayer becomes an aura quite easily which means your lascanon long fangs will quickly start wounding on 2's too. I had a 5 man wulfen squad inside which got out when ready and benefited from the Wolf priests reroll to hit to mulch everything else.

That's excellent to hear, thank you for the insight!

 

Have you got any other ideas/notions/suggestions for running it? How did you screen it? What were you using for your anti-horde?

 

I guess if you wanted to spend more on it, you could have an iron priest stand behind it (so then it's healing D3+1 per turn instead of 1).

Yeah, that makes sense - I haven't thought about Iron Priests much, so they slipped my mind!

[Shas Oh Dear]

I ran 6 squads of 5 grey hunters with 2 rhinos (These provided decent anti horde and screening although I've been considering the loyal 32), a rune priest for debuffs and a wulfen dread as distraction carnifex. First turn there is only 2 5 man gh squads that are targetable non vehicle units which can be easily blocked with the landraider and other vehicles. I have a small bat rep of the game I had at the weekend using this list in the army list section.

[Skylarkr6]

Russ dammit Kallas you couldn't have posted this 24 hours ago? I literally just promised to stop buying plastic until everything is painted last night!

[TiguriusX]

I'll be honest.  I hate gaming the rules like this to find broken units that were missed by the rule team.

[Guest Triszin]

I...

Uh...

 

I'm impressed

[Karack Blackstone]

 

And we wonder why Space Wolves players are considered beardy...

If the CA 2018 gives the SW's their teeth back thanks to points imbalance, then by all means, this thing of a Warlord is going to really push the limits on the table.

 

If anyone wants to use this in a "friendly" test game, well, I hope you keep your friend...

[OgreOnAStick]

I'll be honest.  I hate gaming the rules like this to find broken units that were missed by the rule team.

 

No fun allowed. These are hardly game breaking units. 

[TiguriusX]

 

 

I'll be honest. I hate gaming the rules like this to find broken units that were missed by the rule team.

No fun allowed. These are hardly game breaking units.

He isn't the first to suggest it and he did it subtly so you may have missed it

 

He said it can take a relic bc the rule team only said chaplain dreads are excluded

 

The no brainer relic for a LR is the armor of russ (4++)

 

The other buffs and powers it can get i dont care about

 

Relic abuse is what I'm being the party crasher for

[sn33r]

Umm.. where are the rules for it?.. I can't seem to find them..

[TiguriusX]

Umm.. where are the rules for it?.. I can't seem to find them..

 page 61 of the Index (under the SM vehicles section)

[Kallas]

He isn't the first to suggest it and he did it subtly so you may have missed it

He said it can take a relic bc the rule team only said chaplain dreads are excluded

The no brainer relic for a LR is the armor of russ (4++)

The other buffs and powers it can get i dont care about

Relic abuse is what I'm being the party crasher for

To be honest, the LRE using the AOR is a pretty tame use of that particular relic! The 4++ is good, no doubt, but the real purpose of the relic is to control the flow of the Fight Phase, and the LRE does not want to be in melee - that ability, and similar, is incredibly rare in the game and this specific version has probably the best version of it: The DA relic only affects characters (but within 3"); the Tyranid Power (Paroxysm) is good, but because it's targeted during your own Psychic Phase it makes it harder to use defensively (and can be Denied, unlike AOR); I think there's one more, but I can't recall it right now.

 

And sure, a 4++ on something meaty like a Land Raider is nice, but it's still far from overbearing for the game. I actually strongly disagree with the decision to remove relics from Chaplain Venerable Dreadnoughts; it wasn't a common thing, and it didn't make them particularly brutal.

[NightHowler]

 

He isn't the first to suggest it and he did it subtly so you may have missed it

He said it can take a relic bc the rule team only said chaplain dreads are excluded

The no brainer relic for a LR is the armor of russ (4++)

The other buffs and powers it can get i dont care about

Relic abuse is what I'm being the party crasher for

To be honest, the LRE using the AOR is a pretty tame use of that particular relic! The 4++ is good, no doubt, but the real purpose of the relic is to control the flow of the Fight Phase, and the LRE does not want to be in melee - that ability, and similar, is incredibly rare in the game and this specific version has probably the best version of it: The DA relic only affects characters (but within 3"); the Tyranid Power (Paroxysm) is good, but because it's targeted during your own Psychic Phase it makes it harder to use defensively (and can be Denied, unlike AOR); I think there's one more, but I can't recall it right now.

 

And sure, a 4++ on something meaty like a Land Raider is nice, but it's still far from overbearing for the game. I actually strongly disagree with the decision to remove relics from Chaplain Venerable Dreadnoughts; it wasn't a common thing, and it didn't make them particularly brutal.

 

I don't want to derail the thread, but as to the removal of relics from the character dreads, I get the feeling that a lot (maybe most) of the game design decisions they make have nothing to do with balance and more to do with their idea of "how things should be."  I think that this decision was most likely one of those - the relics are almost universally marine sized and the armor was a suit of specially crafted and ancient power armor and they probably saw how silly it would be for a dreadnought to wear it and said, "nope."  In that same line of thinking, omitting the landraider was most likely an oversight because there are so few non-dreadnought vehicle characters, but then that's the game we end up with: a strange mish-mash of rules that are sometimes balance driven and sometimes story driven with revisions that lead to scenarios where a landraider can wear power armor.

[Kallas]

Are they power armour? Couldn't it be feasible that a unique Land Raider's armour would be notable?

 

Helm of Durfast: what about it being on vehicle's Commander? Worked into a Dreadnought after the wearer is interred?

 

There are justifications easily enough, and game balance is far from thrown off by vehicle's having relic access.

[Jolemai]

I have a list doing similar over in the BA forum where I'm running a Warlord LRE in a Supreme Command Detachment alongside a Battalion and a Spearhead Detachment. I've also squeezed in a Phobos for target saturation. My main concerns with it are the small amount of CPs and the lack of Troops, but the firepower is rather tasty (spoilered below if interested)

 

Hidden Content

 

Attempting a revamp for 8th, whilst keeping the theme (heavy mech) in place. However, I'm considering dropping the Cerberus for now!

 

Trouble is, I'm not happy with it so far.

 

2000 - Heavy Mech list

Battalion Detachment

 

 

Techmarine

~ Chainsword, hand flamer, servo arm

 

Techmarine

~ Power axe, stormbolter, servo arm

 

 

Scout Squad (5)

~ Camo Cloak, chainsword, sniper rifle

~ Camo cloak, sniper rifle (3)

~ Camo cloak, heavy bolter

 

Tactical Squad (5)

~ Chainsword, stormbolter, meltabombs

~ Heavy Flamer

 

Tactical Squad (5)

~ Chainsword, combi-plasma, meltabombs

~ Plasma gun

 

 

Spearhead Detachment

 

 

Land Raider Excelsior

~ Stormbolter, multi-melta, combi-plasma, hunter-killer missile

~ Warlord: Gift of Foresight

~ Veritas Vitae

 

 

Land Raider (Phobos)

~ Stormbolter, multi-melta, hunter-killer missile

 

Predator

~ Predator Autocannon, two lascannons

~ Stormbolter, hunter-killer missile

 

Vindicator

~ Stormbolter, hunter-killer missile

 

 

Supreme Command Detachment

 

 

Librarian Dreadnought

~ Stormbolter

~ Quickening, Wings of Sanguinius

 

Lieutenant

~ Chainsword, master-crafted boltgun

 

Rhino Primaris

 

Options & Tactics

• 10 CPs, LRE Warlord with a 6+++ and the Veritas Vitae
• Techmarine in the LRE and the heavy flamer Tacticals, Techmarine in the Rhino Primaris and *maybe* the other Tactical (it not, then in the Phobos). Lieutenant where needed. Scouts in cover somewhere useful
• Two LRs roll up together, with the Rhino Primaris just behind and the Predator and Vindicator nearby. Librarian Dreadnought makes a nuisance of himself on a flank
• No ML stratagem for anti air, only outlet for the HB stratagem.
• Is it too 7th edition orientated?

Thoughts?

Oh, and the LRE as Warlord idea can be seen here

[NightHowler]

Are they power armour? Couldn't it be feasible that a unique Land Raider's armour would be notable?

 

Helm of Durfast: what about it being on vehicle's Commander? Worked into a Dreadnought after the wearer is interred?

 

There are justifications easily enough, and game balance is far from thrown off by vehicle's having relic access.

You can find ways to justify it, but most of those ways would vary wildly from the description of the relics in the codexes.  The Armor of Russ for example is actually space marine sized power armor.  The Black Death is a frost axe, I'm sure you could find a wild explanation for why a land raider could wield a frost axe, but it would probably be quite different from the description of the Black Death in the codex.  I'm not tryin' to argue, I'm just saying that I think this might explain why they took the relics away from the dreadnoughts and why I also think that forgetting to remove it from the landraider had more to do with an absent minded mistake than an intention to allow landraiders to run into battle in space marine sized power armor swinging a frost axe around over their head (turrets?).

[NightHowler]

Having said all that, if the rules allow it, I say let it play.  But I won't agree that this one was intended to be played that way, I think we ended up with this by poor rules writing.  

 

I'm still waiting for someone to model a landraider wearing power armor.  Curious to see how it turns out actually.