Codex: Lost and the Damned?

[Gederas]

We have more options by not having a codex because we can use count as. If its one thing I've noticed is that many of us who are drawn to LatD is the fact that we convert so much of it, we don't just play it for the rules but for everything else that it entails. Why not embrace that fluidity?

I think the answer to that (very accurate assessment mind you) is like this:

 

Barring the FW Renegades & Heretics, you can't ally either Imperial Guard or Genestealer cults to Chaos in tournaments, going by the rules for allies.

[Goreshed]

Gederas you are 100% correct. But this is where you have to go further outside the box.

 

Genestealer cults could work something like this....

You have the base codex for your human aspects. I believe you can ally with Nids? I could be wrong I haven't looked into them but it makes sense. Then you simply apply the same logic of count as to Nids as you do to the GSC. Termagants? WRONG, those could be little zappers of tzeentch. Hormagaunts? WRONG, hell puppies from the warp drenched in khorne. Warriors? Make them minor demon princes in their own right. Carnifexs? Sounds like a greater deamon to me.

 

IG? Dear lord is this even more easier since when they ally with Marines they have the same chapter bonuses as the chaos side does. IF are just IW, RG are just AL...you get the picture. The same can be appplied to the admech.

 

Honestly for the longest time our salt mountain grew and grew. I'll be the first to admit I was digging to China to pile that salt up. But now in this edition? With the models coming out by GW being their highest quality to date? With codexs that give bonuses for an army you with to play because thats the way it was painted up? Count as has NEVER been this great. I for one will embrace it where I can.

[Cryptix]

I personally think linking army specific bonuses to marks was a mistake, and instead it should be linked to how the specific group of renegades left the imperium: their fall. I say replace the <covenant> keyword with the <mark> keyword so they can soup with CSM armies if you feel like losing legion benefits in exchange for being able to run a fluffy brigade (I would), and add the new <Fall> keyword to all units except CHAOS SPAWN. The Fall is their new armywide trait, and can be any of the following:

Hereteks - Add 1 to the armor save of affected infantry units and 1 to the strength of shotguns, autoguns, and lasguns if the unit doesn't move.

Renegade Veterans - Increase the WS and BS of affected infantry units by 1 if they are within 3" of a Renegade commander, increased to 18" if they have a vox caster.

Cult Insurrectionists - Basically Fanatic for affected units, and units with Fanatic are treated as automatically having rolled a 6. 

Warpborn Zealots - Affected units get a 6+ invuln save and reroll failed hits if they charge, are charged, or perform a heroic intervention.

Imperial Secessionists - All infantry units with this tactic count as scoring units and can reroll hit rolls of 1 and only lose one model due to morale if they stand still. 

 

Next, I'd improve the BS of Renegade Militia and Renegade Heavy Weapon Squads, and the WS or Renegade Mutants, to a 4+. 

 

Malefic Lords get +1 to casts for each PSYKER model within 3", but if they roll a 13 or higher they automatically get perils of the warp even if they didn't roll double 6s or 1s.

 

Lastly, add a new ability to Renegade Enforcers that allows them to kill D3 models in order to give a unit +1 to hit or allow them to advance and charge, with a clause that only one blamming ability can be used per turn, and add a share leadership to units within 6" to Baleful Judge,

[Azekai]

Really like the concept of the renegade equivalent of 'orders' costing of d3 cultists or mutants. Brutal and thematic. 

I would like to formally nominate Cryptix for the GW design team. :P
 

[Cryptix]

Codified the traits more and added warlord traits and stratagems.

Hereteks - Forbidden Weaponry: You may add 1 to saving throws and the strength of autogun, lasgun, and shotgun attacks made for units with this Sin so long as it did not move in its previous movement phase.
Heretek Warlord Trait - Withering Fire: Whenever you roll a wound roll of a 6 or more for a friendly HERETEK units within 6" of the Warlord in the Shooting Phase, the Damage of the attack is increased by 1.
Heretek Stratagem - Unholy Knowledge (2 CP) - Use this stratagem at the beginning of the Shooting or Fight phase. You may reroll failed wound rolls for friendly units within 6" of target character. At the end of the phase, the character takes D3 mortal wounds.

Renegade Veterans: You may add 1 to hit rolls made for units with this Sin if it is within 3" of a RENEGADE COMMANDER. This range is extended to 18" if the unit is equipped with a Vox Caster.
Renegade Veteran Warlord Trait - Just Like the Old Days: You may reroll failed morale rolls for friendly RENEGADE VETERAN INFANTRY units within 6" of the Warlord, but if the final roll is still a fail then an additional D3 models are lost to morale.
Renegade Veterans Stratagem - Big Guns Never Tire (1 CP) - Use this stratagem before a RENEGADE VETERANS unit armed with one of more Heavy Weapons fire its weapons during the shooting phase. That unit may fire any heavy weapons it's armed with twice this phase.

Insurrectionists - Fanatical Devotion: You may roll an additional D6 when determining Uncertain Worth and choose the highest of the two dice rolls made for units with this Sin. Units with the Fanatic ability and this Sin instead are treated as having automatically rolled a 6 when Determining their Uncertain Worth.
Insurrectionists Warlord Trait - Unstoppable Savagery: Any INSURRECTIONISTS units within 6" of the Warlord add 1 to their Attacks and Leadership characteristics. In addition, roll a D6 each time a model from an INSURRECTIONIST unit within 6" of the Warlord loses a wound during the Fight phase; on a 6 or more, the wound is not lost.
Insurrectionists Stratagem - Sacred Fury (2 CP): Use this stratagem before a INSURRECTIONIST unit attacks in the fight phase. That unit can fight twice this phase, but must direct all of its attacks against any units it is currently engaged with.

Warpborn - Daemontouched: Units with this Sin have a 6+ invulnerable save and you may reroll failed hits in the fight phase for these units if they charged, were charged, or performed a heroic intervention in the preceding Charge phase.
Warpborn Warlord Trait - Favored by the Gods: You may add 1 to invulnerable saves made for units within 6" of the Warlord and within 6" of a DAEMON unit.
Warpborn Stratagem - Voidstalkers (1 CP): Use this stratagem when you set up a WARPBORN INFANTRY unit during deployment. You can choose to have the unit lay in wait in the warp instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the end of any of your movement phases, you may set it up more than 6" from any enemy units. If you set up the unit closer than 9" from any enemy units, roll a D6 for each model in the unit - on a 4 or more, the unit suffers a mortal wound.

Secessionists - Last Stand: INFANTRY units with this Sin gain the Lost but not Forgotten ability, even if they don't have the Troops battlefield role, and can never lose more than one model as the result of any single Morale test.
Secessionists Warlord Trait - To the Bitter End - You may reroll failed hit and wound rolls of 1 in the Shooting Phase against enemy units within 12" for friendly SECESSIONIST units within 6" of the Warlord.
Secessionist Stratagem - Chosen Ground (3 CP): All SECESSIONIST INFANTRY units in the army automatically pass morale tests and may reroll all failed hit and wound rolls against enemy units within 3" of an objective.

[Gederas]

Games Workshop/Forge World. HIRE THIS MAN :lol:

[Azekai]

Their traits are called 'sins.' Glorious.
The Warpborn look great. A good way to represent Daemonkin without going totally bonkers. Actually making Daemonkin a faction was an interesting move by GW, but then they goofed by only including it for Khorne and as a codex it was only extant for half of a crappy edition.

Warpborn Voidstalkers stratagem is particularly interesting, its like the Tyranid's Metabolic Overdrive but more intense. It makes me wish that GW would incorporate more risky choices like this, where you could gamble units on wild odds that they accomplish something great. 

[Cryptix]

Got a new Sin and some stratagems!

 

Soldiers of Fortune - Thirsty for Glory: Whenever a unit with this Sin destroys an enemy unit in the Shooting or Fight Phase, you may choose another friendly unit with Sin within 24" and roll 2D6. If the result is less that the chosen unit's leadership characteristic, then it may immediately shoot again if it's the Shooting Phase, or fight if it's the fighting phase. This unit may not be chosen more than once per turn to shoot or fight in this manner, but this does not prevent them from shooting or fighting later in the turn.

Soldiers of Fortune Warlord Trait - I'm the Captain Here: SOLDIERS OF FORTUNE units within 6" of the Warlord may use his leadership in place of their own.

Soldiers of Fortune Warlord Trait - Raiding Party (2 CP): Use this stratagem at the end of the movement phase. Choose a friendly unit that began the turn embarked on a TRANSPORT; they may immediately move, and if they wish, advance. If they do so, they may reroll charge rolls in the next Charge phase.

 

Covenant of Nurgle (1 CP) - Use this stratagem before the game begins. Choose a RENEGADES AND HERETICS NURGLE INFANTRY unit. Every time a model from the chosen unit loses a wound against an attack of strength 4 or less, roll a dice; on a 6+, the model does not lose that wound.

 

Covenant of Khorne (1 CP) - Use this stratagem before the game begins. Choose a RENEGADES AND HERETICS KHORNE INFANTRY unit. You may add 1 to the Strength of the chosen unit on a turn they charged, were charged, or performed a Heroic Intervention.

 

Covenant of Tzeentch (1 CP) - Use this stratagem before the game begins. Choose a RENEGADES AND HERETICS TZEENTCH INFANTRY unit. The chosen unit hits on 5s and 6s when firing Overwatch.

 

Covenant of Slaanesh (2 CP) - Use this stratagem before the game begins. Choose a RENEGADES AND HERETICS SLAANESH INFANTRY unit. The chosen unit may roll 2 dice when making an Advance and choose the highest result (discarding the lowest). Additionally, the unit may roll 3d6 when making a Charge move and choose the two highest results (discarding the lowest).

[Nemerax]

Outstanding and amazing work so far! Never seen such diverse ideas and creativity behind it in a long time. Remindes me of the good old days. 

GW usually copies from Codex to Codex in the 8th Edition.

 

May I suggest to put the Covenants on the Chaos Sigils, so we have our own CSM Icon equivalent. What do you think?

[El_Dicko]

Games Workshop/Forge World. HIRE THIS MAN :lol:

Here here!!!

[Cryptix]

Well after some playtesting, I've decided that Hereteks are a little too glass cannon-y, which doesn't help when you have terrible leadership and low movement. Add the following changes:

 

Renegade Militia Squad: Save to 5+.

Renegade Mutant Squad: Save to 5+.

Renegade Ogryn Brute Squad: Save to 4+.

Renegade Heavy Weapon Squads: Save to 5+.

Forbidden Knowledge: Add "In addition, you may add 1 to armor saving throws for units with this Sin against shooting attacks from more than 12” away."

Unholy Knowledge: Cost to 1 CP.

[Cryptix]

Oi, remember me? Back with some more changes based on playtesting, and a list of stratagems from other codexes that R&H should be able to use.

 

Renegade Militia Squad: Increase WS and BS to 4+, Sv to 5+, add option to be armed with shotguns.

Renegade Mutant Rabble: Increase WS to 4+, Sv to 5+, add "Toughened Hide: Every time a model from this unit would lose a wound, roll a dice, on a 6 the model does not lose that wound.", Increase W of Mutant Champion to 2.

Renegade Marauder Squad: Change Battlefield role to Troops. Add the following to Specialists: "In addition, the inclusion of Renegade Marauder units in a Detachment does not prevent other units in that Detachment from gaining a Sin Trait. However, Renegade Marauder units can never themselves benefit from a Sin Trait."

Renegade Disciple Squad: Merge with Command Squad.

Renegade Command Squad: Add option to take Shotguns. Up to 2 Disciples can replace their autogun/lasgun/shotgun with items from the Special Weapons list. Add "Devoted Retainers: Roll a D6 every time a RENEGADES AND HERETICS CHARACTER would lose a wound while within 3" of this unit; on a 4+, the character does not lose a wound but this unit suffers a mortal wound."

Renegade Enforcers: Change Baleful judge to the following: "Whenever a RENEGADES AND HERETICS INFANTRY unit within 3" of this model would shoot in the shooting phase or fight in the fight phase, Advance, or fail a morale test, you may remove D3 models from the unit. If the unit was about to shoot or fight, add 1 to hit rolls for that unit until the end of the phase. If the unit was about to Advance, then it may Advance and still charge in this turn. If the unit was about to fail a Morale test, the test is automatically passed.

Renegade Ogryn Beast Handlers: Increase AP of Befouled fangs and claws to -1 and D to 2.

Renegade Plague Ogryns: Increase Sv to 5+.

Renegade Heavy Weapons Squad: Increase WS and BS to 4+, Sv to 5+.

 

Stratagems: R&H units can use Crush Them, Aerial Spotter, Jury Rigging, Preliminary Bombardment, Defensive Gunners, Take Cover, Grenadiers, Go! Recon!, or Fight to the Death! Stratagems from the Astra Militarum codex, in each case replacing ASTRA MILITARUM with RENEGADES AND HERETICS. They can use the Blasphemous Machines, Fury of Khorne, Grandfather's Blessings, Endless Cacophony, the Great Sorcerer, Tide of Traitors, and Chaos Familiar stratagems from the Heretic Astartes codex, in each case replacing HERETIC ASTARTES with RENEGADES AND HERETICS.

 

Next time: A complete overhaul of renegade commanders and some special fluff stratagems!

[Tallarn Commander]

Some solid design ideas here. I kind of like Marauders as elites though, they seem too good to be troops.

 

Except for those times I roll double 1's on my Marauders' morale checks and the whole squad runs away.

 

Thanks for taking the time to write all this up!

[Cryptix]

My main reason for moving Marauders to troops is that they were competing with Disciple/Command Squad, and were usually the inferior choice. Now, they can serve as a veterans analogue and an optimal squad for riding in a chimera.

[Tallarn Commander]

That makes sense since vets are troops in an IG army.

[Cryptix]

Promised Renegade Commander rework! Fluff stratagems will have to wait until I can reread Siege of Vraks.

 

Renegade Commander: Add “First Among Fallen: Before your game starts, choose one of the following abilities to apply for the duration of the battle:

Traitorous Warlord: You may reroll failed hit rolls of 1 for friendly <Sin> units that are within 6” of this model.

Cult Demagogue: All friendly <Sin> units that are within 6" of this model in the Morale phase can use his Leadership instead of their own.

Dark Champion: You may re-roll failed wound rolls of 1 for friendly <Sin> units that are within 6" of this model.

Renegade Pirate: You may add 2 to Advance and Charge distances for friendly <Sin> units within 6” of this model.

God-Blessed Executioner: You may add 1 to the Strength and Damage characteristics this model’s melee weapons. In addition, you may reroll failed hit and wound rolls for this model in the Fight phase if the target is an enemy CHARACTER.”

 

This alleviates the problem of HQ spam by making commanders 5 HQs in one.

[Kythnos]

Another great idea! All of these improvements would make the current army list into a work worthy of the dark gods.

[Cpt_Reaper]

More and more I am starting to see threads that are possibly leading to a LatD codex.

 

Renegade Guardsmen. Beastmen. Ogryns. A commander (former Commisar). Psykers. All from Blackstone. Throw in cultists as conscripts-for-chaos, a unique vehicle or two (plastic Malcador please?) and the option for certain Guard units like Russes and Sentinels and you've got a codex.

[El_Dicko]

Hype is intensifying!

[El_Dicko]

Not to mention the massive amount of conversion fodder coming in Warcry!

[Excessus]

Don't forget the redux of the old FW psyker model in Necromunda.

[Nemerax]

Don't forget the redux of the old FW psyker model in Necromunda.

 

The first time I thought I was seeing things as I saw the model. Now Jericho is back with Rules too, I ordered him as he was made to order to use him as an Enforcer where GW clearly stated they will not bring this model back to Necromunda and they did just recently.

[Exilyth]

More and more I am starting to see threads that are possibly leading to a LatD codex.

 

Renegade Guardsmen. Beastmen. Ogryns. A commander (former Commisar). Psykers. All from Blackstone. Throw in cultists as conscripts-for-chaos, a unique vehicle or two (plastic Malcador please?) and the option for certain Guard units like Russes and Sentinels and you've got a codex.

That would be great.

 

The ability to grab some daemon engines from Codex CSM would enable running some lists similar to 3rd edition lost and damned.

[Lord Marshal]

More and more I am starting to see threads that are possibly leading to a LatD codex.

 

Renegade Guardsmen. Beastmen. Ogryns. A commander (former Commisar). Psykers. All from Blackstone. Throw in cultists as conscripts-for-chaos, a unique vehicle or two (plastic Malcador please?) and the option for certain Guard units like Russes and Sentinels and you've got a codex.

I feel the opposite.

 

With GW attempting to move Chaos Marines further away from the 'Spiky Loyalists' it would be odd if they just put out palette swapped Guard, especially the Commissar (although that could be proxied as 'Traitor Officer' or some such).

 

I hope I'm wrong.

[Lexington]

With GW attempting to move Chaos Marines further away from the 'Spiky Loyalists' it would be odd if they just put out palette swapped Guard, especially the Commissar (although that could be proxied as 'Traitor Officer' or some such).

Eh, I dunno. They just put out new basic CSM, Terminators and Havocs. I think the whole “Spikey Loyalist” thing is more of a fan concept than one that holds much sway in the Studio. Most of the Chaos lines come directly from traitor loyalists in one way or another.

 

More, GW has gone full speed ahead on making multiple lines of business from a singular development process. I can’t imagine they’d put out something like a full line of Traitor Guard in BSF without having larger plans for it in 40K.