So what in the Codex is actually good?

[Lemondish]

Exactly - saying putting them in Drop Pods is a reason they're not as good as Inceptors is like saying putting then in Land Raiders is the reason they're not as good as Assault Terminators.

 

Sternguard are their own entity. They are the ultimate Space Marines; shoot well and assault well. They work well from Rhinos and have easy access to character support.

Oh man, that was not at all my intent or message. 100% the opposite. Like, I can't even believe how badly I mangled that if this was the take away. I was trying to compare identical use cases and seemed to have made a poor job explaining my point or the value in the analysis.

 

I'm sorry, I'll simply edit the post and delete the comment as it seems I've completely failed to get the right point across and don't want to derail the discussion any further.

 

Sorry for any confusion, guys - Idaho, just to be clear, that was not at all what I was trying to say, but you are right to make it clear anyway.

[Captain Idaho]

Bless you mate but it's okay. It's the internet - hyperbole and misunderstandings reign supreme.

[chapter master 454]

Glad to see others agree on the sternguard front.

Drop pods are garbo so no point there but rhinos do well and if you are feeling fruity land raiders.

 

Also...Vanguard are good for one very VERY specific reason and I WANT to do this so bad. They can actually have 2 pistols. 2 bolts, 2 grav or 2 plasma and for only 2 point tax per (20pts for a full squad) you can have a on demand anywhere you can land strike of 20 plasma rounds into something you don't like. Add a captain for overcharge fun or just do what I would do and take a rhino primaris! They may be overcosted melee but the fact they can take two pistols is where it is at with vanguard.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Also Wisdom of the Ancients as well .

[Dracos]

Also Wisdom of the Ancients as well .

 

Except it only works on single models  :)  In any other codex it would be a unit.

[templargdt]

So if we are going to wrap this up and not play Ultramarines we're looking at something like this...

 

Captain (rerolls and slam captain)

Lieutenant (rerolls)

Scouts (board control + cp)

Intercessors (durable str 4 shooting)

Helblasters plus Banner Bearer (firepower)

Sternguard (strat)

Devastators (mortal wound strats + cherub)

Thunderfirecannon (strat)

Scout Bikes (highly mobile shooting)

 

Maybe...

Inceptors

Storm Ravens

Storm Talons

Whirlwind Scorpius
Aggressors

 

Based on this of units, what chapter will help them the most?

Also, I'm surprised no one has talked about Kantor.  +1 A bubble and no one's interested?

[autek mor]

deimos pattern vindicator laser destroyer

[Panzer]

Glad to see others agree on the sternguard front.

Drop pods are garbo so no point there but rhinos do well and if you are feeling fruity land raiders.

 

Also...Vanguard are good for one very VERY specific reason and I WANT to do this so bad. They can actually have 2 pistols. 2 bolts, 2 grav or 2 plasma and for only 2 point tax per (20pts for a full squad) you can have a on demand anywhere you can land strike of 20 plasma rounds into something you don't like. Add a captain for overcharge fun or just do what I would do and take a rhino primaris! They may be overcosted melee but the fact they can take two pistols is where it is at with vanguard.

 

I'd actually rather take Vanguards for being Jump Pack Infantry with Storm Shields over being able to take two pistols. Two pistols looks cool but if I want that look I just go with Inceptors.

[Firepower]

Mix and match could be good for giggles.  3 Vanguards with dual Grav pistols and 2 shields, for instance.  Hardly economical (and probably not "good" by the standards of the thread), but could be interesting.  If going plasma, you're probably better off with the Primaris option

 

So if we are going to wrap this up and not play Ultramarines we're looking at something like this...

 

Storm Talons

Whirlwind Scorpius

 

Storm Talons?  They're so over priced on account of the TLAC punishment for Razor spam.  And by virtue of my charming pedantry I'm inclined to point out that the Scorpius isn't part of our Codex.  If we're including FW options, we open up a whole different book of some significantly better options, but a lot of us "don't do FW" for one reason or another.  I, for one, loathe resin and outrageous shipping costs 

 

How does the C:SM Contemptor stack up these days?  People used to really give me the hard sell on it for some reason, but that was before Armigers.  Dunno if they outclassed Contemptors the same way they did box-noughts.

[MARK0SIAN]

I always tend to think Sgt Chronus looks like a solid unit. Leaving aside whether the tanks are any good/correctly priced, if you view him as an upgrade you’re paying forty points for non-decreasing BS2+ and healing one wound per turn, plus he can get out of his tank blows up.

 

I say he looks good on paper because I don’t actually play ultramarines so I’ve never used him for real so happy to be corrected by people with actual experience of him :)

[Captain Idaho]

I wouldn't put Intercessors into the mix of great units or even good. Think like an opponent - "I've got to worry about those Intercessors before I lose the game," said no one ever.

 

***

 

Aggressors are reasonable in damage output (though not spectacular) but die so easily they're not really worth considering good either.

[Lemondish]

I wouldn't put Intercessors into the mix of great units or even good. Think like an opponent - "I've got to worry about those Intercessors before I lose the game," said no one ever.

 

***

 

Aggressors are reasonable in damage output (though not spectacular) but die so easily they're not really worth considering good either.

You're ascribing the wrong role to Intercessors, and if nobody said that about 10 T4, 2+ wounds on an objective just from a 5 man squad, then you're lucky. You make it sound like every unit needs to be capable of swinging the course of the game - but these are marines. Aside from captains and the big FW dreads, there isn't really a unit that will do that singlehandedly.

 

Intercessors, like scouts, aren't going to worry you until later in the game. However, regarding Intercessors, once you do have to shift them, you'll often worry you don't have the tools to do it quickly enough.

[Panzer]

I kinda have to agree with Lemondish there. Intercessors are Troops. They aren't good by the standard we measure non-Troop units with. Other factions Troop units don't really get a "I've got to worry about those Intercessors before I lose the game" reaction either usually. 

[Captain Idaho]

Intercessors aren't competitive. Tactical Marines work better due to their weapon upgrades and D2+ weapons being widely available. And Tactical Marines aren't known for being competitive.

[Panzer]

I'd say Intercessors are more competetive than Tacticals. Both can't really compete with Scouts tho.

[Ishagu]

I really rate Intercessors. 2 wounds and a 2+ save in cover makes them plenty resilient.

 

Multi damage weapons are a thing, yes, but typically they are targeting vehicles and such.

[autek mor]

intercessors are definitely better objective campers but their weapon options really suck though. the bolt rifle is not a bad gun however certain units will just laugh at them. allied deathwatch primaris is an obvious solution if you MUST have some flexibility to the unit like the tactical squad or grey hunters.

[Panzer]

It's okay that certain units will laugh at them. They are your most basic guys. You have other units to deal with those certain units that laugh at your Intercessors. ^^

[chapter master 454]

Intercessors aren't competitive. Tactical Marines work better due to their weapon upgrades and D2+ weapons being widely available. And Tactical Marines aren't known for being competitive.

 

Sorry but I would agree if tacticals could take 4 special weapons or actually have any meaningful loadout. When you spend those points on tacticals, why not go the extra 5 pts for 6" range, +1 AP, +1 wound and heck even through in an extra 1 point for the aux. grenade launcher and boom, you have a durable and effective objective holder that will lob frags map wide like french insults!

 

I mean, you talk of weapon upgrades but...what upgrades? Historically speaking we have even seen other armies ignore their options to take heavy weapons in such squads. No Imperial guard player I've seen ever took HWTs in their infantry in any game unless points were SUPER tight. Eldar only throw support weapons into guardian squads because shurican cannons are decent and just add to the anti-infantry firepower of the unit in total. I don't think any effective tactical squad has ever had a heavy weapon in it unless it was doing devastator lite duty. If I saw 5 intercessors standing on an objective in cover, that would make me go "...emperor damnit" but 5 tacticals? heck, even had that happen once with a guy. Sure I was playing knights but even then, the moment I saw 5 tacticals sitting on an objective with a heavy bolter I was like "welp, that's clean-up fodder. After those 5 scouts with sniper rifles who could actually be annoying". Yes, I was more concerned about SCOUTS than tacticals.

 

Intercessors are good. Try taking 5 for a whirl, they won't disappoint. Even take a full 10 man and have them run the length of 24" towards the enemy. Not their intended purpose but I will assure you, they will get across that board!

[Captain Idaho]

Tacticals can have 4 specials because you can take 2 units of 5 and put them in the same Rhino ;)

 

Tournament results are pretty conclusive that Intercessors aren't competitive for their position at all. This isn't 5th edition where only Troops can hole objectives. Anything can hole an objective in a Marines army and that Venerable Dreadnought with Lascannon and missile Launcher or that Thunderfire can hold the objective whilst your points go into other things. Or just Scouts.

 

Now, mid table numbers and support is a valuable boost for an army and Troops do this. But this is where the Tacticals are superior as they can keep those upgrade weapons until the last model bites it.

 

If you're taking Intercessors to hold backfield objectives you're wasting your points. Just like if I sit on an objective with Tactical Marines I'm being inefficient. Though arguably less inefficient since they can contribute with a heavy weapon and cost less.

 

That's not to say I think Tacticals are particularly competetive. But I never claimed that whereas people are claiming that of Intercessors...

Upgrades - dual special weapons thanks to the combi weapon.

[Lemondish]

Tacticals can have 4 specials because you can take 2 units of 5 and put them in the same Rhino ;)

 

Tournament results are pretty conclusive that Intercessors aren't competitive for their position at all. This isn't 5th edition where only Troops can hole objectives. Anything can hole an objective in a Marines army and that Venerable Dreadnought with Lascannon and missile Launcher or that Thunderfire can hold the objective whilst your points go into other things. Or just Scouts.

 

Now, mid table numbers and support is a valuable boost for an army and Troops do this. But this is where the Tacticals are superior as they can keep those upgrade weapons until the last model bites it.

 

If you're taking Intercessors to hold backfield objectives you're wasting your points. Just like if I sit on an objective with Tactical Marines I'm being inefficient. Though arguably less inefficient since they can contribute with a heavy weapon and cost less.

 

That's not to say I think Tacticals are particularly competetive. But I never claimed that whereas people are claiming that of Intercessors...

Upgrades - dual special weapons thanks to the combi weapon.

You guys have me giggling.

 

The only thing tournaments are conclusive about is that both are trash and you should be taking scouts - full stop.

 

But as far as a solid unit that does the job it should when considering internal balance and accepting all marine units are behind the curve, gonna have to vehemently disagree with you potato man and join the chorus here - Intercessors do their job pretty well.

[Ishagu]

Tournaments are a funny one to use as a measuring stick because in truth the only Troop unit the entire Imperium has that's worth anything are Guardsmen. Such is the folly of being able to take lists with units from multiple sub factions.

 

Just because you don't see Intercessors in many tournaments doesn't mean they are trash. They are definitely not as point efficient and CP generating as Guardsmen, hence Imperium armies are filled with those instead. Tournaments don't indicate which unit is good, they only indicate which unit is best.

 

Intercessors are, however, better than Tacticals. Scouts have the useful scouting ability which GW has under-valued for whatever reason and thus have a niche in the competitive scene.

[Panzer]

Tournaments don't indicate which unit is good, they only indicate which unit is best.

 

 

This.

[Captain Idaho]

I've got to laugh. The whole of my post described why Intercessors aren't "good" and you focus on one sentence to try and detract from it, likely because I made very good points.

 

The OP asked what's good. Intercessors are NOT good. To say otherwise is misleading and biased.

[Schlitzaf]

So.....my two cents. Unless your Razoring or lesser extent Rhino’ing/Want a 90 point Lascannon. Intercessors are just better in the role that Tacticals are supposed to fill.

 

No one is gonna be “frick, an Intercessor Squad”, but unlike Tacticals, Intercessors are effective in more than 1 phase. For one, Intercessors don’t die to chaff or small guns fire. A two wounds a pop, 3+ SV, to kill 1, you need 6 Wounds or 18 BolterShots or 36 Lasguns. The roughly equivalent to 1 Rapid Firing Tactical Squad, or 2-4 Gaurd Squads depending on orders. That means to kill 5 Intercessors you need;

 

90 Bolter Or 180 Lasgun Shots. That same Tactical squad in points would require, 45 Bolter and 90 Lasgun wounds. Now of course that is just reducing by half. But look at it another way, that is the difference between around 2 vs 5 Rapid Firing Bolters And then for gaudsaman the difference between requiring 3-6 vs 7-12 Infantry squads, depending on orders and if in rapid. In the case of the tactical squad you can quite easily bring the needed firepower to bear.

 

Intercessors not just is it highly inefficient it’s also impractical. Meaning that in the engagement Marines want, close quarter combat in 8-12 range. Intercessors cans survive where tactical wilts and die. And then in combat Intercessors can actually fight.