So what in the Codex is actually good?

[autek mor]

Hmm... imagine Tigurius boosting a Leviathan too...

 

sounds like great fun

[Firepower]

How about Space Marine Bikes?  Sticking a Marshal with Crusader Helm on one worked wonders for me the few times I tried it, zippin' around throwing his aura everywhere and taking on a Terminator squad solo with his relic blade.  The few times I used regular bikes they died rather quickly, but I'd say a good deal of that is the suicidal way I charged them way ahead of the rest of the army unsupported. :teehee:

[Jacques Corbin]

Ironclad Dreadnoughts. T8 and not degrading are the biggest factors. Fully loaded, mine comes in cheaper than my Stormtalon, and can take more of a beating.

 

-1 to hit outside 12" with Raven Guard, and Smoke Launchers make it -2. Yeah, Supercharge that plasma...

 

Can reroll charges with Black Templars, great!

 

Reroll 1 failed to hit and 1 failed to wound as a Salamander, can carry 2 Heqvy Flamers for the stratagem, or a Meltagun if Vulkan Hestan is around.

 

Can charge after falling back if a White Scar. The Assault Launchers cost a melta bomb for d3 mortal wounds on a 4+ after a successful charge, totally worth it.

 

A 6++ as an Iron Hand, and their stratagem.

 

As an Imperial Fist, all that sweet Ignores Cover, and being a true wrecking machine. Iron Warriors in a Chaos Bastion? Not for long... Hopefully CA2018 will include dreadnoughts in the Bolter Drill stratagem. Hurricane Bolters and a Storm Bolter, at Rapid Fire range (16 shots), with exploding 6s to hit? Oh yeah!

 

As an Ultramarine, it can shoot after falling back. It is a T8 speed bump with 8 wounds and a 3+ that can catch a charge, then fall back and hose the enemy down with 2 Heavy Flamers, or Hurricane Bolters and a Storm Bolter. 2d6 S5 AP-1 hits, or 16 S4 AP0 shots hitting on 3+, which is better?

[Firepower]

My one concern about Ironclads is getting them into range for a whooping.  I've only ever used Pods, but the cost of that is just prohibitive. 

 

Still, when I've used them, they wrecked face.  I'm still a strong advocate of Hunter Killers (especially as just about my whole army is assault oriented and needs anti tank), and two of them per Ironclad can help make a sweet opening salvo.

 

Gotta ask again because my curiosity is aching- what about Bikes?

[Captain Idaho]

I now want some Ironclads. Supported by Tigurius. ;)

[Jacques Corbin]

My Ironclads, are mostly lightning rods, to be honest. They draw a ton of fire, and a lot of my other units get left alone. Most opponents really, really want to shoot the charging Ironclad off the table, rather than the Scouts that are camping that midfield objective. Especially since my Ironclad runs about 165, and a Scout Squad (just bolters and cloaks) is 70. A lot of players obsess over "efficient" use of points when shooting.

 

As for bikers, I do not use them, but I could see them being useful. I mean, the 14" move really offsets the short range on Meltaguns and Flamers. I would run 5, with 2 specials and a matching Combi, and 2 with Chainswords. They would be great to run up the flank, and toast some annoying backfield vehicles/monsters. Or, if facing a horde list, take 2 Flamers and a Combi-Flamer, and just park them up front. 3d6 overwatch hits from the Flamers, and then 12 bolter shots from the bikes themselves, and then your opponent has to deal 6 wounds to three T5 models. If even 1 biker survives, you can charge them with your assault troops, and not get overwatched.

[Captain Idaho]

5 man Bikers with 3 Meltas could be very powerful.

[Firepower]

An attack bike for good measure? ;)

 

I actually have run 4 bikes with 3 meltas a few times. All I can say is that you don't want them out on their own. T5 is far from invulnerable. Though I wonder what results multiple squads would yield...

[templargdt]

I can actually sort of see Ironclads running Raven Guard.  Pop smokes T1 and advance to start getting you down the field.  -2 to hit will likely keep you alive for at least the first turn in the face of a heck of a lot of firepower, especially with T8.  

Of course, that may all go away in two weeks if they really are chancing the Raven Guard CT.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

-2 is going away. And hopefully it won’t stack.

[Dracos]

-2 is going away. And hopefully it won’t stack.

 

Damn ... sure why not totally :cuss Raven Guard over from fun, not even top table but fun ... in less than 90 days. Stratagem and Chapter Tactics scrapped in a blink. Sigh, maybe the new CT will make up for the Stratagem nerf?

[Lemondish]

 

 

-2 is going away. And hopefully it won’t stack.

Damn ... sure why not totally :cuss Raven Guard over from fun, not even top table but fun ... in less than 90 days. Stratagem and Chapter Tactics scrapped in a blink. Sigh, maybe the new CT will make up for the Stratagem nerf?

With respect, nothing about that chapter tactic is very fun.

[Dracos]

I respect your opinion but not the conclusion. If Raven Guard were OP then you'd see them on top tables. Only Space Marines I've heard tell of at those levels are Blood Angels and Ultramarines. Even Deathwatch have it better than other Vanilla Chapters.

 

Not since the Black Templar had their own Codex has any outside the big four stood a punchers chance in competitive play. 

 

Yes by all means lets all spend $55 bucks on Pri-Marneus instead of actually giving competitive Chapter Tactics and Stratagems to (not just Big4) Marines that can give Eldar and Tyranids and Orks a run for their money.

[Panzer]

To be fair it's been only the CP fed Captain that made people mention Blood Angels. The rest of the Codex isn't that much better than what's in the vanilla Codex. ^^

[UnkyHamHam]

To be fair it's been only the CP fed Captain that made people mention Blood Angels. The rest of the Codex isn't that much better than what's in the vanilla Codex. ^^

I'd really like to disagree respectfully. The Red Thirst is an excellent chapter tactic and boosts every marine unit it works for quite well. And puts others over the top.

 

And I just wanna remind those of you who don't play "vanilla" marines of the situation. You have all of our strats plus at least half a dozen more. You have 90% of our codex plus your own specialty and usually better units. You have just as many if not more special characters as the Ultramarines do (the highest point of our book). And you have a full set of WL traits, relics, and strats to choose from while we get ONE of each.

 

The situation with the specialty Astartes codexes is a much better place than the Vanilla codex place in terms of options and choice.

 

Only the "Specialty" Astartes codexes can boast this claim. And I think sitting top of the pile are the two Angels books. Blood variant being the most inclusive, useful, varied, and competitive.

 

Edit: i will go back a bit on traits and relics as we do still have our generics. But the Strategem disparity still stands.

[Panzer]

I'm not saying they aren't better, tho salamanders and Raven guard have an excellent tactic as well, especially in a shooty meta.
What I'm saying is that without the captain blood angels wouldn't be seen on top tables (except for the odd tournaments but then again I've seen reports of Grey Knights winning tournaments as well). It's literally just the captain in imperial soup lists you see on top tables and whenever you see an actual blood angels list doing well it's usually the captain doing most of the heavy lifting.

[Jacques Corbin]

Yeah, I like my -2 to hit for popping smoke on my Dreadnoughts. Ninja walking Tanks! It is not OP either! It is not like I can do that with my entire army, and it still falls flat against volume of fire. It merely forces my opponent to devote a lot of firepower, or ignore it until next turn, and focus on softer targets.

 

The Stratagem was a bit broken, should have been limited in use like with the Drukhari stratagems and others that let you deep strike. The current incarnation is not bad at all. My opponent sets up a unit in response to one I set up, and he thinks he has me in his sights, nope, 1CP, and it it 9" behind LOS-blocking terrain.

 

I am hoping, that in the campaigns, we can see other chapters than the big 4 expanded upon. Like last edition, send a few chapters against chaos and/or a few xenos factions. That would make existing players happy. Let's face it, that is what the Primaris line are, a way to get players with existing marine armies to buy more marines. Did not work on me. In my area, I only ever see Hellblasters, and sometimes Inceptors or Aggressors. Campaigns are what I would prefer by far. I like the whole "spend a CP to alter a detachment" mechanic. I like that, as long as it does not go too overboard, like formations did. Also, it gives a chance to release new hero models.

[Lemondish]

I'm not saying they aren't better, tho salamanders and Raven guard have an excellent tactic as well, especially in a shooty meta.

What I'm saying is that without the captain blood angels wouldn't be seen on top tables (except for the odd tournaments but then again I've seen reports of Grey Knights winning tournaments as well). It's literally just the captain in imperial soup lists you see on top tables and whenever you see an actual blood angels list doing well it's usually the captain doing most of the heavy lifting.

My favourite BA list is neon's trip Repulsor and double Redemptor Primaris only list.

[Dracos]

I'm not saying they aren't better, tho salamanders and Raven guard have an excellent tactic as well, especially in a shooty meta.

What I'm saying is that without the captain blood angels wouldn't be seen on top tables (except for the odd tournaments but then again I've seen reports of Grey Knights winning tournaments as well). It's literally just the captain in imperial soup lists you see on top tables and whenever you see an actual blood angels list doing well it's usually the captain doing most of the heavy lifting.

 

I won't "Like" ^this^ .... but I certainly won't argue it either ;)

[UnkyHamHam]

 

 

I'm not saying they aren't better, tho salamanders and Raven guard have an excellent tactic as well, especially in a shooty meta.

What I'm saying is that without the captain blood angels wouldn't be seen on top tables (except for the odd tournaments but then again I've seen reports of Grey Knights winning tournaments as well). It's literally just the captain in imperial soup lists you see on top tables and whenever you see an actual blood angels list doing well it's usually the captain doing most of the heavy lifting.

I won't "Like" ^this^ .... but I certainly won't argue it either ;)

I'll definitely like it. Well argued perspectives deserve likes. :)

[justicarius6]

It's literally just the captain in imperial soup lists you see on top tables and whenever you see an actual blood angels list doing well it's usually the captain doing most of the heavy lifting.

Flying Mephiston disagrees!

[GreyCrow]

My one concern about Ironclads is getting them into range for a whooping.  I've only ever used Pods, but the cost of that is just prohibitive. 

 

Still, when I've used them, they wrecked face.  I'm still a strong advocate of Hunter Killers (especially as just about my whole army is assault oriented and needs anti tank), and two of them per Ironclad can help make a sweet opening salvo.

 

Gotta ask again because my curiosity is aching- what about Bikes?

 

Play them as melee deterrent and counter charge unit if your objective holders are getting attacked.

 

Mathematically speaking, melee in 40k is not as damaging as shooting due to lack of range. Nothing we can do can change that.

It's good for punishing opponent's moves or drive him away from something though.

[Jacques Corbin]

An attack bike for good measure? ;)

 

I actually have run 4 bikes with 3 meltas a few times. All I can say is that you don't want them out on their own. T5 is far from invulnerable. Though I wonder what results multiple squads would yield...

On the subject of bikes, what about a Captain, Combi-Plasma or Plasma Pistol, accompanied by a squad of 5 bikers with 2 Chainswords, 2 Plasmas, and either a Plasma Pistol or Combi-Plasma on the sergeant? Mobile Plasma, with reroll to hit of 1s.

[The Unseen]

 

An attack bike for good measure? ;)

 

I actually have run 4 bikes with 3 meltas a few times. All I can say is that you don't want them out on their own. T5 is far from invulnerable. Though I wonder what results multiple squads would yield...

On the subject of bikes, what about a Captain, Combi-Plasma or Plasma Pistol, accompanied by a squad of 5 bikers with 2 Chainswords, 2 Plasmas, and either a Plasma Pistol or Combi-Plasma on the sergeant? Mobile Plasma, with reroll to hit of 1s.

Sounds alright, as long as you have other things multidamage weapons want to point at, and you'd probably want some stormshields.

Bikes absolutely evaporate under anti tank weapons fire.

 

Other concern would be the bikes don't really want to be in combat, except for maybe ultras.

Not being able to fall back and shoot their plasma neuters them heavily.

Is their an index option for company vets on bikes?

Least then you'd hit a lot harder in melee to support the captain.

[Jacques Corbin]

How about this then? Drop Pods got cheaper, so Drop Pod, Captain with Plasma Pistol and Power Sword, Apothecary, 5 Barebones Sternguard with their AP-2 Bolters, and 3 Company Veterans (2 with Plasma Guns and Stormshields, and Sergeant Gunslinging 2 Plasma Pistols).