Abaddon as Archetype - The Champion of Chaos

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

Anyone here think that Abaddon could ascend to daemonhood?  Something involing Drachnyen perhaps?

 

Difficult. We still don't know how ascending to daemonhood without help of one specific chaos god works and he's exceptionally skilled at playing the chaos gods so he never has the favour of just one, essentially limiting their influence over him while still benefiting from them.

Also he wouldn't want it. His goal isn't just to destroy the Imperium, he wants to conquer and lead humanity after he bested the Imperium. That's not something you can do as daemon since your time in realspace would be limited. Of course that's not what the chaos gods want but that's why he is the one using the gods and not the gods being the ones using him like they do with the big four.

 

Perhaps some sort of Chaos Undivided Apotheosis?  One god to rule them all?  

 

Bleh.. will prolly just be something dumb like Primaris Abaddon!  +1w and +1a YAY!

[micahwc]

I think Abaddon could be replaced pretty easily with any of the remaining chaos Primarchs. Why would Mortarion, Lorgar, Magnus, Angron, Fulgrim, or El'Johnson care about Abaddon's plans at all?

[Kastor Krieg]

I think Abaddon could be replaced pretty easily with any of the remaining chaos Primarchs. Why would Mortarion, Lorgar, Magnus, Angron, Fulgrim, or El'Johnson care about Abaddon's plans at all?

I see what you did there.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I think Abaddon could be replaced pretty easily with any of the remaining chaos Primarchs. Why would Mortarion, Lorgar, Magnus, Angron, Fulgrim, or El'Johnson care about Abaddon's plans at all?

Angron seems like the ideal candidate.  He is thoughtful, introspective, and patient.  The perfect evil villain!

[Panzer]

I think Abaddon could be replaced pretty easily with any of the remaining chaos Primarchs. Why would Mortarion, Lorgar, Magnus, Angron, Fulgrim, or El'Johnson care about Abaddon's plans at all?

 

They don't for the most part but they also don't have to. Abaddon and his Black Legion are just as strong if not stronger than the other Legions and depending on the plan a temporary alliance works just as well for him. ^^

[micahwc]

I think Lorgar could become a very interesting character if they write it that the last 10,000 years of introspection have given him character growth and new resolve.

 

Edit:

 

Just spit balling some ideas....

 

Lorgar realizes everything he's done was a mistake, but can't really side with the imperium. An uncivil war breaks out between the legions of Chaos. Remaining primarchs take their legions and go after their own objectives, loose alliances are made.

 

With the Imperium split, loyalists are confused when "traitor" renegade marine forces show up to fight marauding chaos marines.

 

Weird alliances are formed when renegade, loyalist, and traitor marines fight Tyranid/Necron threats with common goals.

[Deadass]

I'm probably echoing most of the people on this thread when I say that replacing Abaddon in a sensible manner would be exceptionally hard and require loads of planning if it was to be done correctly. I'm not just saying this because I'm biased or something, but rather because there's noone like him left among the traitors... or at least noone we're aware of. ADB wrote a really interesting blog entry that is related to the topic: https://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/lets-talk-about-abaddon/

Abaddon is the only person with enough power and strength of character to lead hundreds of thousands of traitors out of the eye into the Imperium to claim it and keep the faintest semblance of order among all those warriors.

The strongest canidates for his position are Huron Blackheart and Lorgar in my opinion, but Huron seems content with ruling his own little empire in the Maelstrom and Lorgar tried to become Warmaster during the Heresy, and... erm... that didn't end so well.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

They could always just invent a new character. Abaddon the Despoiler dies, and then the 13th Black Crusade goes absolutely sideways. A Chaos Lord comes along who sees the Long War falling apart before his very eyes, and decides to take his very large Warband to consolidate more temperate warbands and force others back into his fold. Black Library could write a miniseries detailing his rise to power as well as what happens to Abaddon's soul in the wake of his death. Do the Chaos Gods resurrect him as they've done several notable champions, turn him into a Daemon Prince, or defer to this rising character offhandedly?

[Midnight Brotherhood]

I'm surprised Huron has barely been mentioned considering the scope of his empire and influence. If Abaddon's plot armour fails and bites the dust then Huron is an easy replacement for a Warlord intent on the destruction of the Imperium. Not to mention the countless other Chaos Primarchs now arising and roaming the galaxy again.

[Panzer]

Probably because Huron barely does anything at all aside from last time getting in Guillimans way as Guilliman tried to cross Hurons domain on his way to terra. Huron seems to be content with what he has without any bigger ambitions.

The only two Chaos Primarchs we have seen so far are bound to their patron gods and would never be able to lead a unification of the forces of chaos so unless their patron god becomes a LOT stronger than the rest they couldn't replace Abaddon.

[Vesper]

 

 

What would make Abaddon more interesting is some competition for his position. Another Lord of great power and influence who can't simply be removed, but who perhaps rallies more and more under his banner and weakens Abaddon.

Already done. Now he happens to be the Warmaster because he has broken all true competition and eclipse even the Primarchs in power.

Yes but that's in the novels and it's history. We need this rival to be an active player in the current lore, and to even have a model for the tabletop.

 

 

We don't need anything. Hell, even Abaddon doesn't need it since he's past that in his character development. We need it during the Black Legion's acendency, because it makes sense. At this point, it simply doesn't.

 

[Marshal Loss]

Nobody can replace Abaddon. Simple. It pains me that such a brilliant character goes underappreciated by so many. Thank the dark gods for ADB.

 

I think Abaddon could be replaced pretty easily with any of the remaining chaos Primarchs. Why would Mortarion, Lorgar, Magnus, Angron, Fulgrim, or El'Johnson care about Abaddon's plans at all?

They don't care about his plans at all. And that is exactly why he cannot be replaced. Abaddon is the architect of the Long War, the guy aiming to bring the Imperium down and cast the Corpse Emperor off his golden throne. That's his gig, not the Daemon Primarchs. They no longer care. See Lords of Silence for an example:

 

 

 

Mortarion chuckles. ‘Abaddon can do what he wishes. I no longer care for Terra – I was there, and damaged it so deeply it will never recover. My business now is, you might say, within the family.

 

Why would you want to replace Abaddon? He is the perfect foe for innumerable reasons:

• Quite possibly the clone-son of Horus
• First Captain of the Sons of Horus (has pedigree, and a real reason to want revenge)
• The only character to accumulate the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, which is an insanely big deal in its own right
• Wields a daemon blade powerful enough to kill the Emperor, the "end of empires"
• Wields the Talon of Horus, the weapon that killed two Primarchs and mortally wounded the Emperor
• Forms a new Legion dedicated to waging the Long War
• Starts the Long War
• Has caused the most damage to the Imperium over 10,000 years
• The only figure able to unite the Traitor Legions
• Has humbled and commanded Primarchs
• Is essentially walking proof that the time of the Primarchs is over

Abaddon is a big deal. You may not like him, but you can't just replace him. No other has his pedigree, his accomplishments, his history. The challenge for GW going forward is to find a way to do his narrative and character justice, not to go "oh well Primarchs are back let's reboot 30k in 40k".

[SchultzChaos]

I don't think it can be stated enough: Abaddon has no equal within the forces of Chaos. There can be no new Chaos Lord taking his place as the epicentre of the Gods' attention, for the temptation of drinking the cup from one of the four lords of ruin would be to great. That's what makes Abaddon unique amongst the followers. He will not sumbit. His goals are not petty, they are universal. Power to rule, power to point mankind in a new direction. 

 

During the Gathering Storm it kinda looks like the Studio didn't have a clear view for Abaddon as they put more focus on Guiliman and others around him, but doesn't mean that they have dropped his importance or the fact what he symbolizes to the 40k universe. He is the Fallen Angel with the keys to open up the Gates of the Abyss, the one to usher in the Apocalypse (the death of the old and rebirth of the new). 

 

This was originally posted on ADB's blog about Abaddon from like five years ago (I think). They are the words gathered after talks with IP warlords and research into snippets and old lore, and I think they are as important for this thread as they were to combat the tiring meme of Failbaddon:

“Horus was weak. Horus was a fool.” 

 

It sums up Abaddon. Horus allowed himself to be used by Chaos – Horus is the Chaos Powers’ dupe to get back at the Emperor. Abaddon will never let this happen. He will never allow himself to be a Pawn of Chaos. Simply surviving without choosing one as a patron is a massive achievement. Never succumbing to the temptation of becoming a daemon prince is a second. Seriously, Abaddon is so driven he’d rather battle and scrape and bite and claw his way up to achieve his goals on his own terms than achieve immortality and virtually limitless power, because the alternative is to open the slightest chink in his independence that the Chaos Gods will exploit. 

 

If Horus was the vessel that all of the Gods poured their power into (right up until they abandoned him at the end), then Abbadon has become the vessel that the gods want to have for themselves but haven’t been able to claim. They’ve all offered him a chance to be their regent, to rule in their name, and he has turned them all down, playing them off each other. He is the New Emperor in a way that Horus never was or would have been. Abaddon has, through sheer force of will and dominance, made himself more than a pawn, he has made himself kingmaker. If he were to choose one god to serve, if he dedicated the Black Legion to a single power in his name, that God would crush his rivals almost to the point of victory.

 

Almost.

 

Because Chaos can never win against itself, of course, and Abaddon has seen the truth of this. He knows that Chaos is a process, a state, not a goal, and the moment anyone surrenders to the journey and forgets the destination is the moment their worldly ambitions are forgotten and their spirit becomes simply a part of the Chaos Powers. Abaddon is utterly relentless in his pursuit of what he wants – whatever that may actually be. Revenge on the Emperor? Too petty. Vengeance for Horus? Too sentimental. Power? Yes. What kind of power? Mortal power. He could have all the immortal power he can handle if he but asks for it, but that is not what drives him. He sees the Primarchs disappear, fade, die or simply not care anymore and he understands that only a man can really rule other men. Abaddon doesn’t want to destroy the Imperium, he wants to succeed where Horus failed. He wants to be Emperor and have Mankind bow beneath his rule.

His rule, not the rule of the Chaos gods.

 

Abaddon has not failed because he is wilful or incompetent. He has mustered the greatest armies since the Heresy and unleashed them upon the material universe. He has amassed power and influence within the Eye of Terror greater than any primarch. He has done this through feat of arms and personality, but the one thing he can never truly do, because it is anathema to Chaos, is truly unite the ruinous powers. They can only come together in dominance, not subservience. Whenever Abaddon has been on the brink of victory his backers break ranks, seeking to gain some last-minute short-term advantage.

Ultimately, a win for Abaddon is a loss for Chaos. If he becomes Emperor he has everything he desires and they can hold nothing over him. And so they continue to dangle the carrot, continue to be his patrons, giving him daemonic power and servants, ordering their mortal representatives to debase themselves and serve his will, all in the hope of snatching the final victory of Abaddon for themselves.

It is the Office Politics of Hell. Literally… One of the beliefs surrounding Satan in many Christian theologies is that his defiance of God was his refusal to bow to Man when they were created. In refusing to submit to the rule of mortals, Abaddon carries this analogy perfectly – the Legiones Astartes were created by a god and were never meant to be corralled and curtailed by purely mortal ambitions. As Angels they have a higher purpose – and once had a higher regard in the eyes of their creator, who shunned them.

 

Quite how much of this Abaddon realises when Horus fails and how much he learns over the next ten thousand years (or three days, depending on warp time) is narratively elastic…

Bearing in mind the warp/ real interface, being the bearer of the Mark of Chaos Ascendant is not just having a shiny star of Chaos imprinted in one’s forehead. It is, when the Chaos gods are bestowing their blessing/ energy, to be the centre of a blazing star, to be surrounded by a coil of ever-replenshing Chaos energy, heralded by choirs of daemons of all powers, suffused with the essence of the four great Chaos Gods. To each worshipper and follower he appears different (much like the Emperor…). He is a schemer, a warrior, a self-centred iconoclast and a survivor. 

But there are the times, after the effort, the glory, of being the conduit of so much power, when he teeters on the precipice of doubt, madness and physical corruption. He stands between mortals and immortals, his ambitions far beyond the understanding of the first, yet incomprehensibly alien to the second; constantly he is failed by the inherent weaknesses of both. 

His enemies circle, material and immaterial, sensing potential weakness. His allies start to disappear. For a while the Chaos Powers are disinterested, choosing to split, becoming self-serving once more, raising up their champions, sometimes alone, sometimes together, hoping that these mortals will rival Abaddon. Yet they never do.

And he wonders if it is vanity. He wonders if he is deserving. He wonders if what he wants is possible.

 

And then the Powers come back, trying once more to win him to their cause, taunting, threatening, cajoling and coercing Abaddon to become theirs and theirs alone. And he listens, and he wonders. And always, from somewhere deep in his soul, from the darkest yet strongest place in his mind, the answer comes back, hesitant but growing louder with every beat of his twin hearts. 

 

Yes.   

 

Yes, one day it will all be yours. 

 

And he starts the struggle again. The Long War continues. 

 

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

You do know there are other Undivided Chaos Lords right, that play the gods against each other in a bid for power? This is not an original concept of Abaddon's. Perturabo does it and no, Abaddon did not invent the Long War. That is something fanboys/fangirls say to make him look cool. While he was in the Eye of Terror doing his self imposed exile the Alpha Legion and Night Lords continued to wage war against the Imperium of Man. Also, when Abaddon's brings the traitor Legions together, they soon abandon him and pursue their own agendas. The traitor Legions are not United, they are temporarily allied before they fall upon each other and the Imperium of Man again.

[SchultzChaos]

You do know there are other Undivided Chaos Lords right, that play the gods against each other in a bid for power? This is not an original concept of Abaddon's. Perturabo does it and no, Abaddon did not invent the Long War. That is something fanboys/fangirls say to make him look cool. While he was in the Eye of Terror doing his self imposed exile the Alpha Legion and Night Lords continued to wage war against the Imperium of Man. Also, when Abaddon's brings the traitor Legions together, they soon abandon him and pursue their own agendas. The traitor Legions are not United, they are temporarily allied before they fall upon each other and the Imperium of Man again.

 

Please, educate us flimsy mortals. You got any sources backing this up? 

What a strange way to implement your will over people, phrasing them as something "beneath you". Fanboys/fangirls? Who is not a fan of 40k and active on this forum?

[Deadass]

You do know there are other Undivided Chaos Lords right, that play the gods against each other in a bid for power? This is not an original concept of Abaddon's. Perturabo does it and no, Abaddon did not invent the Long War. That is something fanboys/fangirls say to make him look cool. While he was in the Eye of Terror doing his self imposed exile the Alpha Legion and Night Lords continued to wage war against the Imperium of Man. Also, when Abaddon's brings the traitor Legions together, they soon abandon him and pursue their own agendas. The traitor Legions are not United, they are temporarily allied before they fall upon each other and the Imperium of Man again.

 

There are other Lords of Chaos Undivided, sure, but none of them have enough influence to play the gods. It's a difficult feat to do so, and Abaddon is only able to do so because of all the mortal power he has amassed over the millennia, i.e. being in command of one of (if not the) strongest traitor legion and having obtained the servitude of numerous humans, space marines, daemons and primarchs alike. Perturabo and Lorgar are just not interested in claiming the Imperium, and neither of them have enough power or charisma to make the attempt anyway. The primarchs that stand at the heads of the cult legions are simply restricted by their patron gods.

The Night Lords definetely did not start the Long War. They did what they wanted out of the simple need for survival, or because they felt like it. You could certainly make the argument that the Alpha Legion fought the War first, but they're fighting it for goals that are as varied and mysterious as the warbands that make up the legion itself.

If the Despoiler did not begin the Long War, then he is without a doubt the greatest driving force behind it.

That last piece about his host splintering soon after it is assembled is certainly true, and there are multiple examples for it. But then again, noone has achieved more than him. And noone we currently know about can do better than him, and the reason why has been pointed out by a bunch of members now.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

Huron Blackheart has a pre heresy sized naval fleet and has assembled a massive Warband second only to the Black Legion in only a couple of centuries compared to Abaddon the Despoiler's ten millennia. He's pretty impressive for his limited spotlight. I'm not saying I hate Abaddon or I hate the Long Wat or think the Great Game is better. I just think that if Abaddon dies , Chaos can find a way. I'm fine with big lore changes so if he dies , I'll just shrug and take a shot for him and his large contribution to the lore and look forward to the next Warmaster or Mistress of Chaos, such is the nature of Chaos, ever-changing and in flux.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Nobody can replace Abaddon. Simple. It pains me that such a brilliant character goes underappreciated by so many. Thank the dark gods for ADB.

 

I think Abaddon could be replaced pretty easily with any of the remaining chaos Primarchs. Why would Mortarion, Lorgar, Magnus, Angron, Fulgrim, or El'Johnson care about Abaddon's plans at all?

They don't care about his plans at all. And that is exactly why he cannot be replaced. Abaddon is the architect of the Long War, the guy aiming to bring the Imperium down and cast the Corpse Emperor off his golden throne. That's his gig, not the Daemon Primarchs. They no longer care. See Lords of Silence for an example:

 

 

 

Mortarion chuckles. ‘Abaddon can do what he wishes. I no longer care for Terra – I was there, and damaged it so deeply it will never recover. My business now is, you might say, within the family.

 

Why would you want to replace Abaddon? He is the perfect foe for innumerable reasons:

• Quite possibly the clone-son of Horus
• First Captain of the Sons of Horus (has pedigree, and a real reason to want revenge)
• The only character to accumulate the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, which is an insanely big deal in its own right
• Wields a daemon blade powerful enough to kill the Emperor, the "end of empires"
• Wields the Talon of Horus, the weapon that killed two Primarchs and mortally wounded the Emperor
• Forms a new Legion dedicated to waging the Long War
• Starts the Long War
• Has caused the most damage to the Imperium over 10,000 years
• The only figure able to unite the Traitor Legions
• Has humbled and commanded Primarchs
• Is essentially walking proof that the time of the Primarchs is over

Abaddon is a big deal. You may not like him, but you can't just replace him. No other has his pedigree, his accomplishments, his history. The challenge for GW going forward is to find a way to do his narrative and character justice, not to go "oh well Primarchs are back let's reboot 30k in 40k".

 

As someone that started 40k at the very very end of 7th I quite like Abaddon getting partially retconned into a total badass.  His character is very cool and compelling.  He is a guy that gets :cuss done and had to fight hard for his.  The Traitor Primarchs are a lot harder to like or appreciate imo.  They just seem like genetically engineered fail-sons/weirdos.    

[Ishagu]

He could be replaced by a high profile loyalist turning to Chaos and taking his place.

[Vesper]

Less compelling, highly artificial. Even more so now that he's made it out of the Eye, broken Cadia and the gate.

In fact, the only logical follow up to that is more win on the horizon. Maybe him humbling Guilliman like he humbled the other Primarchs.

[Marshal Loss]

He could be replaced by a high profile loyalist turning to Chaos and taking his place.

 

An awful idea. Whoever leads Chaos as the Warmaster has to have been there from the beginning. It's what gives their ambitions weight. Why would you put a thin-blooded renegade in charge of the guys waging the Long War?

[Morovir]

That's also the argument against Huron ever getting as far as Warmaster, because the simple fact is he will not be able to gather the same support that a Veteran of the Long War will be able to.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

It's not about support. Abaddon forces people to follow him under penalty of a painful death. A Renegade Warlord could do the same. Huron and other Chaos Lords are charismatic, but they're not all diplomacy. They can throw their weight around as needed. Fear works when respect doesn't.

[Morovir]

We have never seen Huron actually leading Astartes from other legions under his banner in the same manner as Abaddon has. The closest we have seen is the Night Lords at the fall of Vilamus, and even then it was only so that they could get their ship repaired, and because they wanted to seize one Huron's ships for themselves. We have never seen the Word Bearers of Ghalmek fighting under Huron in the same manner that Word Bearers from the Eye followed Abaddon during the Thirteenth Black Crusade, for example. We have also seen Typhus humbling Huron in the recent lore, which seriously undermines his credibility as a capable warlord. This is the same Typhus who would willingly follow Abaddon over his own primarch.

[Marshal Loss]

Support definitely factors into the equation. No renegade warlord could unite the Traitor Legions in the same way Abaddon has successfully done numerous times.