Abaddon as Archetype - The Champion of Chaos

[Marshal Rohr]

I will never understand what level of galaxy brain it is to hate on Abaddon and pretend it is any kind of insight or circumspect reasoning.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

People dislike him because he's been written so poorly for so long. They also don't want their Warband to be told what to do. Making Chaos Space Marines have a boss rubs people the wrong way. It rubs me the wrong way and I like Abaddon. I also am fine with him being replaced though.

[Marshal Rohr]

Kevin Costner was a terrible Robin Hood, that doesn't make Robin Hood or Kevin Costner terrible. Somethings don't work together, with both parts being good nonetheless. If your warband doesn't follow the warmaster there is nothing in this world telling you that you have to follow him. He is the anti-Christ of the setting. Regardless of how anyone feels about him in-universe or out-of-universe, that is his role. Sure, they could replace him and write some lore justifying his replacement, and in twenty years he will be the Morkar of that iteration of 40k. At this point and time replacing him would be like replacing Darth Vader in Empire. You could reboot it, but you'd do more damage than fans will appreciate and in twenty years everyone will have moved on.

[micahwc]

I think a new model that puts him similar in size/scope to the daemon primarchs or Bobby G would help people take him more seriously.

 

I don't have anything against him as a character, but I do think he has kind of a Saturday morning cartoon villain vibe going on. Like you see the Ultramarines beat him and know he will be back next Saturday with another crazy plot.

[DarkApostle7]

I think a new model that puts him similar in size/scope to the daemon primarchs or Bobby G would help people take him more seriously.

 

I don't have anything against him as a character, but I do think he has kind of a Saturday morning cartoon villain vibe going on. Like you see the Ultramarines beat him and know he will be back next Saturday with another crazy plot.

Definitely, I think the problem with Abby is his lack of strength, I don't care about him defeating random insignificant worlds, even cadia didn't emphasise his strength but Chaos' as a whole.

I'd like for him to somehow get alot bigger to contend with Roboute in a 1v1 and pose a serious threat like Magnus/Morty do far-this could be done through something daemonic involving good ol' Drach'nyen as it was fleshed out in ADB's books, either that or a less beastial Drach'nyen becoming warmaster, a considerable threat even to emps

[helterskelter]

Cadia weakened Abaddons position, he destroyed his own Blackstone Fortress, leaving Huron with the only one in possession for aggressive use. He also bled his armies because the heroes didn't die fast enough.

[Ishagu]

Abaddon actually over committed his forces in a secret campaign deep within Imperium space to cut Terra off from Warp routes, and was foiled by the Custodes. Although he tore open the eye, his armies are indeed severely depleted.

[Marshal Rohr]

That's just not true.

[Ishagu]

It kinda is. Abaddon's fleets are formidable but he can't fight the full Imperium head on in multiple large scale distant theaters.

 

The fact is the Imperium is at war with Chaos, every Xenos race and elements from itself and Abaddon has not been able to destroy Terra.

[Marshal Rohr]

He doesn't have to. His fleet is formidable enough to defeat anything the Imperials can attack it with at once. You're also using information from a novel to draw conclusions about strategic goals and operational capacity that the book does not offer itself. He did fight the full Imperium head on, he did win, and he has had one hundred years of conquest and power expansion since then. The absence of new Abaddon lore doesn't mean he's not doing anything, it just means the studio hasn't released it.

[Excessus]

Personally I think the big four wouldn't let him fall that easily. They'd pump him full of warp power weather he likes it or not, they've invested far too much into him and his crusade to let him fall now. 

[Ishagu]

He doesn't have to. His fleet is formidable enough to defeat anything the Imperials can attack it with at once. You're also using information from a novel to draw conclusions about strategic goals and operational capacity that the book does not offer itself. He did fight the full Imperium head on, he did win, and he has had one hundred years of conquest and power expansion since then. The absence of new Abaddon lore doesn't mean he's not doing anything, it just means the studio hasn't released it.

Not sure he's ever fought the full Imperium at once. He's probably taken on an entire sub-sector battlefleet and won but the Imperium is spread far and wide. He'd probably find his forces drained and reduced to nothing if he committed to a direct, frontal assault to get to Terra.

[Panzer]

That's why he hasn't done it yet. Aren't all the black crusades, or at least a big part of them, preparation to make a direct assault on terra happen eventually? Like the fall of Cadia was supposed to carve a path directly towards terra but something didn't work out right (most likely Cawl tinkering with the pylons) and now we got the Great Rift instead which is still a huge success for the forces of chaos but not what Abaddon was aiming at.

[Marshal Rohr]

Didn’t the rulebook say Khorne betrayed the other powers and Abaddon which caused the assault on Terra to become impossible?

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

I think Abaddon has been betrayed more by writing than anything. Aaron Dembski-Bowden tried to redeem him as a threat with the Black Legion novels, which are good, but it reeks of desperation in my opinion. Dembski-Bowden tries constantly to give Chaos legitimacy but GW's codex and supplement writing doesn't support that.

[Marshal Rohr]

That’s certainly a personal, subjective take on the matter.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

Yeah, it is my biased opinion. I just think Abaddon suffers from Retcon Syndrome. I'm glad he's a threat, just I wish it didn't have to be done via Retcon.

[Marshal Rohr]

There was never anything in the lore that said he wasn’t a threat, though. Or anything that insinuated he wasn’t the big bad.

[helterskelter]

There was never anything in the lore that said he wasn’t a threat, though. Or anything that insinuated he wasn’t the big bad.

Between the heresy and talon of Horus, he does all of a sudden develop some actual personality and charisma though.

[Khornestar]

Surely better to expand a character than leave them in their former cheesy/unimpressive state though, yes? Narratives evolve over time. Or they can and often do, anyway. 40k is no different.

[Excessus]

Personally I love the ADB black legion books.

[Ishagu]

Personally I love the ADB black legion books.

Well, they are the single source material which portrays him as anything other than Failbaddon the Boring.

[Vesper]

 

Personally I love the ADB black legion books.

Well, they are the single source material which portrays him as anything other than Failbaddon the Boring.

 

I have to disagree. The Night Lords series, the Fabius Bile series, anything past the breaking of the Cadia Gate. Everything portrays him as the biggest of deals around.

 

I mean, he single-handedly changed the setting. And there is no other character that comes close to that kind of importance to the setting. Most characters are reacting to the events. Cawl never acts, he reacts, Guilliman never acts, he reacts, same goes for the Daemon Primarchs. All those characters are opportunists, existing in a moment that allows them to be relevant. Abaddon is the only true actor in the setting, he is the only one who takes meaningful decisions that have lasting consequences, meaning he'll always be relevant.

 

And what's great about all the sources on Abaddon is that they aren't all praising him, it's not a chorus of praise, far from it. That's pretty awesome because it paints a varied picture of the character, making him believable and interesting. Once again, he's the only character with such a treatment in the setting, making him the most nuanced character in the setting and arguably the most well written by a fair margin.

 

It's actually pretty sad that the Primarchs, who happen to have a whole series and countless books about them and them alone come off as less interesting (some being plain boring) than Abaddon or other characters with far less material.

[Slan Drakkos]

Honestly, Abaddon is a good character and a solid archetype for chaos. Could he be replaced? Certainly, but the Black Legion fans would rage harder than the Squat fans did when they got phased out.

 

A little off topic, but a feel as if people don't take Abby seriously for a variety of reasons that GW severely needs to address.

 

1. He needs a new model. There's no way around it; people will keep on bringing up the memes as long as his arms can fall off.

 

2. He needs some legitimate wins under his belt. I feel as if every time that someone tries to bring up how awesome he is, they can only really list half-wins against no name opponents. He needs to destroy something important and kill several important people in order to not be taken as a joke. Moreover, he needs to win in a way that doesn't seem like GW is pandering to the Black Legion crowd.

 

3. He needs more power. There, I said it. With the return of a primarch, the rise of a literal god, the massing of one of the largest Ork Waaaaaghs! in history, and the kind-of alliance of two different races of species against the threat of Chaos, Abaddon needs more power to really sell the thought that he's a threat. He needs more demons, better weapons, powerful named characters by his side, and more resources than he previously had.

 

4. He needs more air time. You'd think that the main antagonist of a setting with so many books written on such an annual basis would have more than only two books written exclusively about him in the 20+ years of that setting existing. Seriously GW, get your :cuss together!

[RapatoR]

You might as well do a topic discussing whether the Emperor can be replaced.