Daemon Prince Marbas Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 No I wasn't. But guess what? Since I'm new to this, I still think you all getting upset over Abaddon is dumb. Why? Because like you said 40k is a setting. It's not about the characters. If they die, they die. In fact, I like it when important characters die, especially in a war setting Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351335-abaddon-as-archetype-the-champion-of-chaos/page/5/#findComment-5201198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 ...getting upset over Abaddon is dumb... Getting upset about any of this seems dumb. There are discussions, and then there are arguments. I don't think there's really anything to "win" here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351335-abaddon-as-archetype-the-champion-of-chaos/page/5/#findComment-5201238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon Prince Marbas Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 I'm just confused is all. Abaddon is awesome, but I struggle to see a place for him anymore. He can't really lose or it invalidates the latest Crusade. He can't really win or the setting ends. He's just stuck in this war. The daemon primarchs have their "agendas" and I'm just stuck wondering...."so where do we go from here?" I mean Abaddon could win, and that'd be dope, but then his arc falls flat because now all there is to do is defend what he took from Xenos and Imperial remnants. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351335-abaddon-as-archetype-the-champion-of-chaos/page/5/#findComment-5201247 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 What you seem to be missing is that yes, this is a setting, but Abaddon is more than a character, he IS part of the setting and this part here '...just stuck in this war...' is EXACTLY the point. The Daemon Primach's agenda's, revolve around the Great Game. That is their point. They have transcended the Imperium, they have more things to worry about than petty mortal worlds. Abaddon is important because of what he represents, that you seem to instinctively understand, but are not articulating. What is 40K? Its not a 'war setting' whatever that means. Its not about the loss of some hero's or villains (especially when they have plastic to push!). Abaddon is a representation of the rise and fall of Man, and the end game which is exactly what Chaos has always wanted, eternal, constant, war. Abaddon will not 'win' but he wont lose either. He will keep churning through the Long War, not because its going to end, but because he hates the Imperium. The Daemon Primarch's are, like Daemons, just in it for the laughs at this point. Abaddon, the Black Legion, their desire is more distilled, more focused. Abaddon is the history of the Imperium, and its ultimate fate made manifest. What he represents cannot be 'replaced' and his place, is right in the middle of eternal, perpetual, war. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351335-abaddon-as-archetype-the-champion-of-chaos/page/5/#findComment-5201254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 It's still a long way to Terra. There are many things Abaddon can do, win and lose until GW writes themselves into the corner of "either he destroys Terra next or he dies next". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351335-abaddon-as-archetype-the-champion-of-chaos/page/5/#findComment-5201256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 It's still a long way to Terra. There are many things Abaddon can do, win and lose until GW writes themselves into the corner of "either he destroys Terra next or he dies next". What was the gap between the 13th Black Crusade we played in, and Gathering Storm? 15-18 years? Thats about the time I would expect before we are above Terra. :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351335-abaddon-as-archetype-the-champion-of-chaos/page/5/#findComment-5201260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 It's still a long way to Terra. There are many things Abaddon can do, win and lose until GW writes themselves into the corner of "either he destroys Terra next or he dies next". What was the gap between the 13th Black Crusade we played in, and Gathering Storm? 15-18 years? Thats about the time I would expect before we are above Terra. Sounds good to me. Then the Tyranids had enough time to consume the other half of the galaxy and big E would finally be motivated to get stabbed by Cypher and move his rotten butt from his oversized chair. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351335-abaddon-as-archetype-the-champion-of-chaos/page/5/#findComment-5201274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 Abaddon is in a difficult position as a character. He has to serve as both top dog and underdog at the same time. On the one hand, he's among the most powerful warlords when compared to any other big name in 40k. When compared to the likes of Thraka, Vect or Eldrad, he can either go toe to toe with them in a brawl or match the fighting strength of their personal armies, or both. On the other hand, the odds are ridiculously stacked against him when you look at his endgame: the destruction of a galaxy spanning empire that's able to fight wars on countless fronts. And regardless of how Abaddon has been handled so far, I don't see how a successor could be written better. Make that character even more powerful than Abaddon? Turn his army into a galaxy ending force like the Tyranids? That's power level one-upmanship. Or maybe his ambition should be lowered? But then that character could hardly be considered a proper successor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351335-abaddon-as-archetype-the-champion-of-chaos/page/5/#findComment-5201285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyD4rkPassenger Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 I'm just confused is all. Abaddon is awesome, but I struggle to see a place for him anymore. He can't really lose or it invalidates the latest Crusade. He can't really win or the setting ends. He's just stuck in this war. The daemon primarchs have their "agendas" and I'm just stuck wondering...."so where do we go from here?" I mean Abaddon could win, and that'd be dope, but then his arc falls flat because now all there is to do is defend what he took from Xenos and Imperial remnants. At the same time, this is true for any of the factions and that's what is keeping the story the way it is. The Necrons "could" all wake up, the Tyranid Hive "could" arrive, the Eldar "could" go extinct and get eaten, etc etc. Its always been a huge stalemate and we make the story within it. If anyone wins it would be akin to the End Times Fantasy, and even then almost all of the faction cornerstone characters came back to AoS to start the great game over again. It's a strange way to build a world but it works. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351335-abaddon-as-archetype-the-champion-of-chaos/page/5/#findComment-5201303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 I would personally argue that as far the Imperium is concerned each of those threats are major and dangerous (Tyranids, Necrons, Expansionist Tau, Ork Super-WAAGHs), but none are as dangerous as Chaos. Its all of those things PLUS chaos together that is going to kill the Imperium. But that is neither here nor there for this topic beyond Abaddon's importance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351335-abaddon-as-archetype-the-champion-of-chaos/page/5/#findComment-5201307 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 Agreed. Getting eaten, enslaved, wiped out or whatever is all of the highest order of existential threats ... but they all fall short compared with the chaos gods destroying reality (not their intent but that's where things would lead towards) lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351335-abaddon-as-archetype-the-champion-of-chaos/page/5/#findComment-5201324 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteySödes Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 Agreed. Getting eaten, enslaved, wiped out or whatever is all of the highest order of existential threats ... but they all fall short compared with the chaos gods destroying reality (not their intent but that's where things would lead towards) lol That and the threat of chaos exists in everyone. With enough power anyone is a pawn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351335-abaddon-as-archetype-the-champion-of-chaos/page/5/#findComment-5201401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 Also, 13 Black Crusades to newcomers to 40k sounds really bad, even if each were successful, it just kind of reeks of pity victories. I know, it's just like how in WWII, the Allies showed they sucked because they didn't immediately invade Berlin! Dude, I think most people can understand that Abaddon isn't facing what Horus did. Horus had half the military might of the Imperium on his side, and still failed on his rush to Terra. Abaddon, on the other hand, has to fight far greater forces, against a far more entrenched opponent. They aren't pity victories, they're achieving strategic victories to pave the way for his eventual goal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351335-abaddon-as-archetype-the-champion-of-chaos/page/5/#findComment-5201492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
techsoldaten Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Also, 13 Black Crusades to newcomers to 40k sounds really bad, even if each were successful, it just kind of reeks of pity victories. I know, it's just like how in WWII, the Allies showed they sucked because they didn't immediately invade Berlin! Dude, I think most people can understand that Abaddon isn't facing what Horus did. Horus had half the military might of the Imperium on his side, and still failed on his rush to Terra. Abaddon, on the other hand, has to fight far greater forces, against a far more entrenched opponent. They aren't pity victories, they're achieving strategic victories to pave the way for his eventual goal. Not only that, he's fighting on a scale unconstrained by the laws of time and space. If he wants to go away for a thousand years and come back to try again, he can do that. Gives logistics a whole new slant. No victory is urgent. Wait for your opponent to get old and pass away so you can come back for their great grandchildren, who have come to regard you as a fairy tale and let down their guard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351335-abaddon-as-archetype-the-champion-of-chaos/page/5/#findComment-5201533 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Ok, this topic certainly went into strange areas, discussing both the concept of time and the old campaign. I take it you don't really want to discuss the concept of "The champion of chaos" so consider the topic closed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351335-abaddon-as-archetype-the-champion-of-chaos/page/5/#findComment-5201640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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