Unmodified roll vs re-roll

[Kastor Krieg]

Questions to initially consider:

• this is not 40k, this is not 40k plasma, this works differently, please read the small text by the weapon entries;
• what constitutes "a modified roll"?
• is it only "a roll that had MODIFIERS added to it / substracted from it"?
• or is it any roll the value of which was changed at all ("modified")?
• what constitutes "an unmodified roll"?
• can a re-rolled dice still be considered "unmodified"?
• if changing a roll with +1/-1 is definitely "a modifier", is a roll that was changed from X to Y with reroll "unmodified"?
• if re-rolled, is the "unmodified dice roll" still the original one?
• there is no rules definition of "modified / unmodified", which literally means "changed / unchanged", only a definition of "a modifier";
• thus we only know for sure that a roll that had a modifier added to it / substracted from it is "modified", the rest is questionable;

 

Situation:
 

A Sniper specialist fires a plasma on 2nd mode, rolls "1". The plasma rule is triggered ("on an unmodified roll of "1", model is Out of Action after all of the shots are resolved). He uses his Sniper ability to re-roll that "1", rolls "5" and resolves his shot as a hit. 

Is he Out of Action now?
 

Case A - not only modifiers can "modify" a roll:
Yes, he is. The initial, original, UNMODIFIED roll was "1". Nothing in other rules he uses stops plasma rules from killing him once his shooting is resolved. The space for the shot resolution is left intentionally (Rules As Intended), because a re-roll permits him to still hit. It will not save him from the final plasma explosion though and he dies.

 

Case B - only modifiers can "modify" a roll:
No, he isn't. A re-roll is not a "modifier" (defined narrowly as only +x/-y to roll value), therefore the old "unmodified" roll of "1" is entirely supplanted by a new "unmodified" roll of "5" and thus the plasma rules are not triggered at all.

There is no point for the "shot resolution" space in the plasma rule in this Case, because you're either dead and can't hit anyway because you rolled "1" again and that's always a failure or you've re-rolled into "2+" and thus the plasma rule is not taken into account at all.

 

---

 

To me, personally, two factors indicate that RAI is Case A. 

 

1) Linguistics. There is a distinct difference between "an unmodified, unchanged, natural roll of 1" on your die and "a modified value after modifiers were applied or re-rolls were made". Substituting a number for "1" is the same as modifying "1" to something else.

 

2) RAI. The part where the plasma rules leave space for you to at least finish shooting. They make sense only if you rolled "1" and had a chance to re-roll that and still hit, then die. Otherwise, they are pointless, because you either roll "1" again and miss or roll something else and not explode (for a Case B situation).

Thoughts?

[Charlo]

SORRY! I didn't see it was Kill Team at first. Yes I'm a noob.

 

He doesn't die.

 

Re-rolls apply before modifiers (and are not modifiers, as they are different things) and if you are re-rolling a dice then the result you had doesn't exist for the purpose of triggering rules.

 

So, while you roll a 1 initially (triggering the death from plasma), as you are re-rolling that dice the 1 no longer counts, only the new result.

 

The plasma rules are not written with re-rolls in mind (else they'd be insanely long an convoluted) so you just re-roll as normal.

[gaurdian31]

I believe it is more Case B as there are other things with similar rules such as the Necrons' Reanimation Protocols unmodified roll of 6 on the Injury roll, I would think that I could spend a command point to re-roll on the Injury chart to not get a 6. This prevents the Necron from all of a sudden getting no injury/healing up all flesh wounds. Also the Re-Roll rules section even indicates that "re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied" pg. 20 of the Kill Team Core Rulebook.

[Kastor Krieg]

I believe it is more Case B as there are other things with similar rules such as the Necrons' Reanimation Protocols unmodified roll of 6 on the Injury roll, I would think that I could spend a command point to re-roll on the Injury chart to not get a 6. This prevents the Necron from all of a sudden getting no injury/healing up all flesh wounds. Also the Re-Roll rules section even indicates that "re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied" pg. 20 of the Kill Team Core Rulebook.

What is a Command Point in KT? ;)

 

The fact that re-rolls happen before any other modifiers does not preclude that a re-rolled die is a modified one.

[Bryan Blaire]

What is a Command Point in KT?

“When you choose a Battle-forgedkill team, you gain access to Command Points. These can be spent to utilise Tactics, each of which represents a tactical asset available to your kill team.”

Tactics are not explicitly defined as dice roll modifiers, nor do they all provide such.

 

I would say that if a re-roll is not explicitly defined/declared as a "Modifier" somewhere in the rules, then Rules As Written, they are not a "Modifier". At that point, you have to discuss interpretation with your opponent or implement the Most Important Rule roll-off per page 25.

 

Based on the charts that define the different roll modifiers (such as the Shooting Hit Roll Modifiers chart, etc.), those are modifiers (+/-1, x2, etc.), while there doesn't seem to be anything in the rules that shows a "re-roll" as a Modifier anywhere. It certainly isn't listed as one in any of the Hit Modifiers charts.

[gaurdian31]

With the winky I am assuming you know what Command points are, but they do exist in the game to let you do the tactics like tactical re-roll. 

 

The way rule for Re-Rolls is worded though states it happens before modifiers, not any other modifiers, meaning to me it is not a modifier itself. That is my interpretation of it and the way it is written.

[Kastor Krieg]

I thought for a moment CPs were the 40k name and the KT name for the spendable was something else. Never mind me in that regard then :D

What I mostly keep getting hung up on is - how can you change a value of "1" to something else and then call that something else "unmodified"? You've just changed it, so it's modified.

The wording is poor in the rules, as usual, but why the assumption that "modified" is understood extremely narrowly as "affected by modifiers"?

And even then, why even more narrowly assume that ONLY the +/-2 or x2 "modifiers" are capable of causing a roll to be considered "modified" (changed, affected)?

And EVEN THEN, they aren't listed as a comprehensive list of what is a modifier, only examples thereof. So why the assumption that nothing else is a modifier?

That's a lot of effort and assumption when the original meaning of the word "unmodified" provides a clear, binary distinction between what was changed at all and what remained unchanged, ever.

[Rogue]

What if it were the other way around? If you have one of those abilities that triggers on a six, roll a six, and then re-roll the die and get a four. Does the ability still trigger? I’d say not, as you no longer rolled a six; you’ve now rolled a four instead.

 

Likewise, your sniper hasn’t rolled a one, he’s rolled whatever came up second time.

 

Also, it’s a fairly established GW rule that rerollls happen before modifiers. Which suggests that rerolls are not themselves modifiers.

 

So I think option B, the sniper lives.

[Kastor Krieg]

I don't know why you would re-roll a successful roll. Most abilities allow you to re-roll a failed roll for that exact reason.

Please tell me:

• does the re-roll adjust, change the originally rolled, unmodified value? (YES)
• after the re-roll is the value different than "1", if 2+ is rolled? (YES)
• then, if the value is ADJUSTED and DIFFERENT, how can you claim it's not "modified"?

[Rogue]

Well, usually you wouldn't, but it was an example. Part of the point being that, were someone to do such a thing, they'd probably get funny looks if they then wanted to hang on to the bonus they just rerolled away from. And I figured the same would apply to a negative effect.

 

As written, I still think that the sniper lives. A reroll is not a modified roll. It's a reroll. (I'm not modifying roll A, I'm making roll B, which is a different roll. Roll A no longer exists (I can't revert to it if i don't like roll B, because it's gone).

 

If I roll a natural (unmodified 1) with overcharged plasma, I die. If I have plus one to hit, I still die, as the unmodified roll was one. If i roll a two firing at an obscured target, I modify that to a one, but don't die, as it's a modified score.

 

If I reroll the die, I am no longer modifying that roll. I've rolled again. This new roll is not a modification of the old roll - it's not changing the number up or down, or multiplying it. It's a completely fresh, new roll. 

 

I see your point, and in the wider sense of 'modify' then yes, it's a modification. But in the sense that GW use the word, where they mean adding, subtracting or multiplying a number, then it's not a modifier. To my mind, at least.

[gaurdian31]

For me it goes back to rules for things like Reanimation Protocols. If I roll a 6 and then use the tactic Tactical Re-Roll to then roll a 4 the Necron goes from being reanimated to out of action or takes a flesh wound if in cover. The first roll of 6 no longer exists and the second roll of 4 takes its place. It isn't modified it is replaced. Is it different? Yes. Is it the same dice roll? No. This means to me the new roll would then apply any modifiers at this point. After the re-roll is when modifiers would be applied. GW's definition of modifiers in this case.

[Tyriks]

I don't know why you would re-roll a successful roll. Most abilities allow you to re-roll a failed roll for that exact reason.

Please tell me:

 

• does the re-roll adjust, change the originally rolled, unmodified value? (YES)
• after the re-roll is the value different than "1", if 2+ is rolled? (YES)
• then, if the value is ADJUSTED and DIFFERENT, how can you claim it's not "modified"?

:huh:

It isn't modified. It's replaced. If the batteries die in your remote, you replace them - the outcome is changed but the batteries aren't modified. Likewise on a drill with a battery pack you charge it, modifying the battery itself. Rerolls have always been treated as replacing the original roll. The wording implies it isn't a modifier (because it happens before any modifiers). Nothing labels it as a modifier. There's simpky no reason in the rules to treat it as a modifier and not a replacement.

[Bryan Blaire]

Rogue and Tyriks have it - it's not a modification of the initial roll, it's the erasure and full replacement of the initial roll, as if that initial roll never happened in the first place.

 

why the assumption that "modified" is understood extremely narrowly as "affected by modifiers"?

 

And even then, why even more narrowly assume that ONLY the +/-2 or x2 "modifiers" are capable of causing a roll to be considered "modified" (changed, affected)?

 

And EVEN THEN, they aren't listed as a comprehensive list of what is a modifier, only examples thereof. So why the assumption that nothing else is a modifier?

Because those are the definitions/examples of modifiers as provided by the rules. There are individual model modifiers for rolls as well, but they take the form of a +/-1, x2, etc, as well. You can do a search on the word "modifier" in the rules to see this. Nowhere in the rules does it reference a re-roll of a die/the dice as a "modifier."

[Kastor Krieg]

Doesn't say the examples are the only kinds of modifiers in the game and doesn't say in re-rolls that the original roll is "erased" and never happened, either. What it says is that it affects the roll's outcome, not the value and definitely doesn't say it affects the original, unmodified value.

It's wide open for interpretation and poorly written. I guess I'll have to concede, but not because I'm convinced. The argument is basically "because it's always been interpreted this way".

[Panzer]

Honestly what do you hope to gain from this argument? It's very hard to argue that re-rolls are modifier as you might have noticed and you would have to have this argument with literally every opponent all over again because re-rolls not being modifier isn't just the most intiutive interpretation, it's also the commonly accepted interpretation.

Some arguments are just not worth having.

[Tyriks]

No, the argument is that the plain sense reading of the rules says they are different (i.e. 'reroll happen before modifiers, if any'). If rerolls are a subcategory of modifier then that is written nonsensically. If they are separate things then it is written just fine.

 

If you said, 'the lawyers were first in line, followed by the humans,' that would be read as a joke saying lawyers aren't people. If you didn't mean to suggest that, you would have miscommunicated.

[Tyriks]

To clarify, I think if you cut out that line that delineates between the two I could see it going either way, but that line does draw a clear difference between the two.

[Kastor Krieg]

OK, riddle me this. The plasma overcharge rule says that the model is removed (OOA) after the shot is resolved. Why?

If it works like Case B indicates, there never is a chance for this to come into play. Either you roll "1" and fail, re-roll into a "1" and fail again or re-roll into 2+ and never mind the plasma rule at all.

There HAS TO be a situation where both "plasma explodes" and "you still have shots to be resolved". The ONLY chance for this to happen is Case A - plasma still explodes because originally you rolled "unmodified 1" and after the re-roll you check if you hit anything with the last shot of the game for that model.

Also: "An unmodified roll of 1 always fails, and an unmodified roll of 6 always hits."

So, you roll "1" and roll "always FAILS". You re-roll according to the rule that says "re-roll FAILED to hit rolls". Done, A is affected by B, there's a common denominator, "FAILS".

No part of the re-roll says anything about additional rules that were triggered not by FAILURE of the roll but by the "UNMODIFIED ROLL OF 1".

When you roll "1" with an overcharged plasma, TWO things happen, not one. You FAIL (which is resolved with the reroll) and <plasma explodes in your face>. Reroll affects the former 100% and does nothing with the latter.

Ergo, you can still hit with that shot after a reroll but it will be your last.

[Kastor Krieg]

[ I acknowledge that RAI could be as you say it is, complete cancellation of the original roll, but the verbiage of the rerolls and the plasmas is a lot different than in 40k and it affects the logic. It's poorly written / edited and this is just a huge gaping hole ] 

[Rogue]

OK, riddle me this. The plasma overcharge rule says that the model is removed (OOA) after the shot is resolved. Why?

 

If it works like Case B indicates, there never is a chance for this to come into play. Either you roll "1" and fail, re-roll into a "1" and fail again or re-roll into 2+ and never mind the plasma rule at all.

 

There HAS TO be a situation where both "plasma explodes" and "you still have shots to be resolved". The ONLY chance for this to happen is Case A - plasma still explodes because originally you rolled "unmodified 1" and after the re-roll you check if you hit anything with the last shot of the game for that model.

 

Rapid fire. At 12” plasma fires two shots, so makes two hit rolls. Say one rolls a 1, the other rolls a 5. The model will be removed, but there’s still an unresolved shot to finish before you do so.