Armigers vs Dragoons

[Prot]

So in an attempt to fire up my AdMech again with less Questoris level Knight support I ask this question;

Do you think an approximate equal value of Warglaives can be outdone by Dragoons i a similar role?

 

Consider the extra support antrue admech unit would receive, however the AdMech purist has to replace the melta Spear with cost effective replacements from the AdMech codex

 

I know most people prefer the Helverins however I think a case can be made for the Warglaive here.

 

Thoughts?

[Finkmilkana]

Dragoons are great and overall possibly even better than warglaives, though they rely on CP to really deal damage (so more than 1 squad is often not worth it). Whether they can replace warglaives depends on what role you actually want to use the warglaives for.

 

If you want them as a meele threat the enemy has to deal with, then dragoons can certainly do that. They will attract a different kind of enemy fire though, so be aware of that. They also work best as stygies, stacking -1 to hit, which quite likely becomes impossible with CA.

 

If you want to use them as your primary anti tank, then no, as the dragoon’s have no shooting that’s worth mentioning and meele anti tank is not reliable unless it can bypass screens. Against a skilled player, you will often be stuck in screens on turn 2 and only reach tanks turns 3. Dragoons will mince pretty much any infantry they charge though.

 

On the other hand, warglaives with their weird hybrid ranged/meele profile are also not really the best primary anti tank (or the best “anything” really). They are not cost efficient if they use only shooting or only meele, but if they get into meele, the enemy can just bind them there with screens (since they lack the fall-back and shoot of the larger knights and only kill a measly 4.5 guardsmen a turn).

 

What could work is warglaives with dragoon support to help clear infantry that tries to bind them.

[Black Knight]

Their roles do overlap but barely, the Warglaives are a more expensive platform that has ranged weapons and heavier melee strikes. The murder chickens are only melee and are a Hell Mary reaction(You don't expect them to survive the return attack). 

 

Warglaives do get focused alot more so you can use that to protect other parts of the army. The chickens are hard to hit.

 

If you want to destroy some chaff then the Chickens are excelent with stratagems and exploding hits but if you need some armor or monster killed, I would go for the Armigers.

[synthaside]

I took both 2 warglaves and a 3 man unit of dragoons to the Dutch Gt a few weeks ago , I had pretty solid performance from both of these units.

My list involved a knight Perceptor, 2 warglave and a 3 man  Chicken team, their role is a amoured fist to break more gunline armies where they will eventually outshoot us ... targeting prime castle spot .   The Chickens go first ( pregame move) usually getting a turn 1 charge often getting a Turn 1 charge ...  I play as house raven so my warglaves are not far behind advancing to shoot any choice targets turn 1 ideally inside the melta 2d6 range.

I find players underestimate the warglaives over other targets perhaps a legacy of them being bad in forgebane ?  Most good players know to ignore the fact that chickens are -2 to hit and to try to kill them as fast as possible just eating the hit on 5's because if they land in enemy lines they wreck face. Warglaives do a lot less overall combat damage I see the combat damage as a nice bonus on top of the d3 melta lance.

Point for point a Warglaive is 168 points, 3 dragoons are 204, these also require a stratagem and specific forge world trait to use optimally, the warglaves slot into most armies and what they bring is an insane amount of board presence ...  taking objectives  grabbing distance secure objectives ... just don't confuse them with a full fat knight they are a fast dreadnaught class unit , they dont hold up to consistent punishment.
 

[Heliomanes]

I think both options are heavily outcompeted by an unupgraded Knight Gallant, which comes at a comparable point cost to 2 Warglaives or 2 squads of Dragoons. Maybe this will change with Chapter Approved.

[Vel'Cona]

I think both options are heavily outcompeted by an unupgraded Knight Gallant, which comes at a comparable point cost to 2 Warglaives or 2 squads of Dragoons. Maybe this will change with Chapter Approved.

 

The shift to WS 2+ was a HUGE power upgrade for the Gallant, and I'd agree it largely invalidates the vast majority of other melee-centric options.

[Charlo]

Not much personal experience with Chickens, but I really like Armigers with twin Melta. The Damage potential at close range is crazy and the versatility of Sweep/ Strike attacks is nasty. House Krast to ensure their attacks land in combat is very nice.

 

A Gallant cannot be underestimated as others have said, however I feel like a Gallant is a fire-magnet whereas a few Warglaives are likely lower on the priority list.

 

Warglaives are great in pairs too.

[Prot]

So a Gallant is simply better than either option for the points.

 

I have two unsold Knight units and I haven't finished building them. My old stalwart Crusader might be built as a Gallant.

 

The thing I like about the Warglaive in my experience is I can press hard for an objective out of my zone, and previously that's a really hard thing to do. But it's also nice to have that Melta option which overall makes the Warglaive a better choice than the Helverin for most of my lists.

 

My lists are always pure Mars, and most include Cawl which is a handicap in this scenario but nonetheless I try to maximize him by keeping the AM component around him extremely ranged, and anti-tank. But something has to go in a list like this. I want to keep Kastellans because they work well thematically with Cawl Wall. (And it looks cool!)

 

So this costs me my heavy firepower in the form of antitank. I love my Dunecrawlers, but they are often the first to go when I add a Knight/Warglaives etc. So when you add something this expensive, where are you getting your anti tank from?

For those of you that use the Gallant, is that Knight basically the only form of CC ability you have?

[Charlo]

 

For those of you that use the Gallant, is that Knight basically the only form of CC ability you have?

 

For the 40k Doubles earlier in the year my list was:

Gallant

2 Wargliaves

2 Enginseers

2x 5 Vanguard

10 Vanguard with Arc

 

My partner was Necrons but all based around blobs of Warriors with some Deathmarks and a C'Tan Shard for #FUN/

 

So yeah, the Knights were, but also when I play Ad Mech (Cawl Wall like yourself) I don't own any CC units (unless you count Breachers?) so the Knights shore up that hole.

[Emicus]

Warglaives win in terms of investment cost, that's for sure. If I were screening or sprinting to objectives I'd prefer 2 smaller models over 1 big one (questoris). All comes down to what you need then for i suppose.

 

But unfortunately I'd rather have Helverins for a few points more!

 

Both armigers need help bailing out of melee, chicken walkers thrive there.

[Heliomanes]

 

I think both options are heavily outcompeted by an unupgraded Knight Gallant, which comes at a comparable point cost to 2 Warglaives or 2 squads of Dragoons. Maybe this will change with Chapter Approved.

 

The shift to WS 2+ was a HUGE power upgrade for the Gallant, and I'd agree it largely invalidates the vast majority of other melee-centric options.

 

Same with the warlord traits, relics and stratagems. Death grip might be the best strat in the entire game. In my games it has killed daemon princes, and even Abaddon and Guilliman, both with full health before the Gallant decided to lend them a hand. With WT, relic and the House Krast bonus you can give the Gallant 2+, 4++ (3++ with stratagem), with rerolling melee attacks everytime you charge or get charged.

 

Prot:

I've played a few games with a Mars-based army with a Knight detachment. It functions quite similarly to the Admech/Custodes type armies you find out there, with the Martians bringing Cawl, his robot buddies and plenty of objective grabbers, while the Knights go full tilt and apply max pressure. It functions reasonably well in a semi-competitive setting, and is a lot of fun to play.

[Prot]

 

 

For those of you that use the Gallant, is that Knight basically the only form of CC ability you have?

 

For the 40k Doubles earlier in the year my list was:

Gallant

2 Wargliaves

2 Enginseers

2x 5 Vanguard

10 Vanguard with Arc

 

My partner was Necrons but all based around blobs of Warriors with some Deathmarks and a C'Tan Shard for #FUN/

 

So yeah, the Knights were, but also when I play Ad Mech (Cawl Wall like yourself) I don't own any CC units (unless you count Breachers?) so the Knights shore up that hole.

 

 

So out of curiousity how did you find the Gallant/Warglaives combo? I realize it was a unique situation but did you get a sense of if you'd run this as an every day list?

 

 

 

 

I think both options are heavily outcompeted by an unupgraded Knight Gallant, which comes at a comparable point cost to 2 Warglaives or 2 squads of Dragoons. Maybe this will change with Chapter Approved.

 

The shift to WS 2+ was a HUGE power upgrade for the Gallant, and I'd agree it largely invalidates the vast majority of other melee-centric options.

 

Same with the warlord traits, relics and stratagems. Death grip might be the best strat in the entire game. In my games it has killed daemon princes, and even Abaddon and Guilliman, both with full health before the Gallant decided to lend them a hand. With WT, relic and the House Krast bonus you can give the Gallant 2+, 4++ (3++ with stratagem), with rerolling melee attacks everytime you charge or get charged.

 

Prot:

I've played a few games with a Mars-based army with a Knight detachment. It functions quite similarly to the Admech/Custodes type armies you find out there, with the Martians bringing Cawl, his robot buddies and plenty of objective grabbers, while the Knights go full tilt and apply max pressure. It functions reasonably well in a semi-competitive setting, and is a lot of fun to play.

 

 

When you play a Gallant/Armiger style detachment, how do you work out the Warlord traits/relics in conjunction with Mars Admech?

 

That does sound like a fun combo. Being punch into a corner with Admech can get tiring. The idea of choking the life out of some would be attacks is a nice thought. :)

 

Actually I was thinking of House Krast as well. Just for the CC re-rolls with my AdMech.

[Heliomanes]

Household Rules just function for the Knights, and only in detachments of 3 or more, which is reason enough to bring two warglaives with your gallant. The added command points are a neat bonus. Still, a single Gallant is also a good option, but then he won't get the Household rule.

Knights can spend 1 cp to gain a warlord trait, and another to gain a relic. So you just buy them, leaving the "normal" warlord etc for your Mars detachment. Which I find fitting. Normally I just let Cawl be the warlord, unless I want to bring something else. The Gallant will end up dying gloriously, so having a Magi as your warlord is allright in game terms as well as quite fluffy.

[Stray]

I can't speak as to Dragoons (though I believe them to be one of the better Ad mech units - hampered by their extortionate $$, ££ price, especially if you want a full unit), but I think I can provide some food for thought regarding Armigers.

 

Armigers are an odd little unit for me. People often seem to compare them to Dreadnaughts, but in all honesty I don't have a lot of practical experience with Dreadnaughts, so couldn't say whether it's an apt comparison.

 

When they were released, people were especially seduced by the Helverin, a lot of the reason being that lovely flat 3 damage from it's weapon. Great for taking out elite troops and the like right? Well... sorta. The reality is that many of the Helverins best targets also have really good saves, and you're only getting a -1 armour penetration value from it's weapon. If you have hot dice, and your opponent blows their saves, it does well. But on average? 1-2 MEQ/Primaris killed a turn, and three full turns to chip away at a Rhino...

 

Where they do well, is as objective campers, if you've taken them anyway (because as has been mentioned above, they also work nicely in Knight lists for filling out detachments). Wherever you place them, they will always be in range, and they have the speed to get where you want them. If they ever get charged though, your mini-knight is screwed.

 

Warglaives weren't ever seemingly as popular in the discussions on Armigers at release time, but for my money they're probably the more flexible unit. They can hold their own a bit in close combat, and their weapon hits a bit more reliably on the juicy targets, but sadly it suffers from swingy damage and number of hits.

 

Basically, both units can perform well, and are by no means bad. But they aren't auto-take, game winners. Not by a long shot. It's also worth noting that for the price of two in points, you could pretty much field a Gallant (I would!)

[Prot]

Household Rules just function for the Knights, and only in detachments of 3 or more, which is reason enough to bring two warglaives with your gallant. The added command points are a neat bonus. Still, a single Gallant is also a good option, but then he won't get the Household rule.

 

Knights can spend 1 cp to gain a warlord trait, and another to gain a relic. So you just buy them, leaving the "normal" warlord etc for your Mars detachment. Which I find fitting. Normally I just let Cawl be the warlord, unless I want to bring something else. The Gallant will end up dying gloriously, so having a Magi as your warlord is allright in game terms as well as quite fluffy.

 

I've not really mixed up two Detachments like this with Knights involved, so I appreciate the advice. Typically it's all Admech or all Knights. I did do some testing a few months ago but forgot how I got multi Relics, and multi characters. I know it makes sense to make him a character, but I imagine if the warlord trait is in Mars, it can't be in Knights?

 

I would take the Armigers just to get the Krast rule to be honest.

 

 

@Stray - I agree. and I do use Dreads a lot, but I much prefer an Armiger to all variants except a venerable dread which I just find so cost efficient. I think when Armigers were released the Warglaive got a very negative review. I was one of those people. I had my Forgebane units painted within days and I was so excited to get them on the table. Back then their cost was horrendous.

 

I've completely changed my stance since them. I know the Helverins are a go to for a lot of armies, but the Warglaive works exceptionally well with Admech and kind of helps out with that CC issue.

 

Ideally I'm looking at combining 3 Armigers, and 1 Questoris. I'd like to keep the Questoris cheap but nonetheless I'm sure this means my newly painted Dragoons are out of the list as a result!

[Heliomanes]

 

Household Rules just function for the Knights, and only in detachments of 3 or more, which is reason enough to bring two warglaives with your gallant. The added command points are a neat bonus. Still, a single Gallant is also a good option, but then he won't get the Household rule.

 

Knights can spend 1 cp to gain a warlord trait, and another to gain a relic. So you just buy them, leaving the "normal" warlord etc for your Mars detachment. Which I find fitting. Normally I just let Cawl be the warlord, unless I want to bring something else. The Gallant will end up dying gloriously, so having a Magi as your warlord is allright in game terms as well as quite fluffy.

 

I've not really mixed up two Detachments like this with Knights involved, so I appreciate the advice. Typically it's all Admech or all Knights. I did do some testing a few months ago but forgot how I got multi Relics, and multi characters. I know it makes sense to make him a character, but I imagine if the warlord trait is in Mars, it can't be in Knights?

The ones you buy with cp count as additional ones. So I'd use the "normal" warlord trait you get via declaring a warlord on the Mars detachment, and buy them as a bonus for the Knight. The exception to this is FW knights, as they can't use the relevant stratagem. Which I'm fine with. If I'm using my Porphyrion, he's obviously the warlord anyway. Anything else would be uncouth.