AM and Fortifications

[Berzul]

Hey guys. A question:

Back in my early days as a Dark Angels player, I loved to play with fortifications. Bastions, Aegis Defense Lines, Wall of the Martyrs, Gun Emplacements, Imperial Bunkers, you name it. I LOVED to use fortifications, and when 8th edition showed up I amped my puchases of fortifications to play planestrike and stronghold assault.

 

But, they were very non competitive in my Dark Angels Army, and I was often told that the only and only army to truly make the best of a Fortification Detachment, was the Astra Militarum (despide the fact that my 5-man Devastator Plasma Cannon Squad inside an Imperial Bastion was used so often an do successfully it was almost a signature unit for me)

 

So, I want to start building an AM army, and I want to know... is this true?

 

How many of you play with fortifications?

What has been your experience?

Do you have a favourite piece of fortification?

Are they worth it with the good ol' Imperial Guard?

[Tirak]

Fortifications are pretty useless for the Guard. Our mainline infantry is 40 points, so why hide it in a bunker when i can just buy more? This edition has more terrain and reduced the effectiveness of Cover so a what's the point? At the end of the day, what are you buying? Ablative wounds? Buy a tank. I've fought players who use fortifications and they always end up not killing their points.

 

The only way I figure a fortification would be worth it, would be if the Orks had gotten a Rok stratagem that would have let them deepstrike Bastions on Turn 1, but that didn't come to be.

[Slan Drakkos]

1. Yes, IG synergize very well with fortifications. The armies that rely more heavily on mobility get less of a benefit from them, but they can still be used for repositioning and a lot of forts give a bit more heavy firepower to an army that enjoys throwing bodies at an opponent.

 

2. I play with some fortifications (though I mainly do so with my salamanders).

 

3. This question isn't going to get you very good answers as experience varies from player to player depending entirely on how that player and the opponent rolls, what army the opponent is playing, and what sort of loadout the posters here bring to the table.

 

With that said, I used a firestorm redoubt and beat my friends Ork army (it was double the size of my army), so yeah, I really enjoy using fortifications.

 

4. I personally like the Aegis defense line. Fairly cheap cost for added cover for gun line armies.

 

5. Again, mileage varies per player, but overall? Yeah, fortifications are worth it.

 

Hope I helped.

[sairence]

If yoh at the very least could hide multiple units inside a fortification they could keep tbem safe. A bunch of Cadian Lascannons save from retaliation for a turn or two can do work.

 

But since you can at most put one heavy weapon even that's not worth it. Simply too expensive for what they offer.

 

Which is a shame. I have a Firestorm and a Wall of Martyrs and I'd love for them to be at least semi-useful.

 

But with the current rules, the only time i used them was in a narrative battle where they were free.

[sairence]

Maybe one more thing: I assume the suggestion that Guard can make use of them comes from the idea that Guard is static. This is really only true for Cadians. Any other regiment generally wants to have a large portion of it's army move up or around.

[Berzul]

Im planning an army half cadian / half tallarn, so yeah. Fortifications would be on the cadian side

[domsto]

I tried Fortifications often with my Guard Force. And i now can surly say: NO just No.

As said before Guard doesn't benefit much from it. i pay like 70p so my t3 models get a 4+ save? well nope i just buy 2 more Units so i have 30 men with 5+ save instead of 10 men with 4+ save. I quess you can find out yourself what's better this Edition^^

The same goes with Gun emplacements. Why sink Points into a stationary Weapon that only hit on 5+?

The Points for Fortifications are allways spend better elsewhere. that's even more True for Guard because with their big verity of Units from cheap to expensive you will always find something better for your Points.

 

And one little side note: the Cover you buy with YOUR Points isn't exclusively for YOU. Guard get rushed by almost ever Army out there. So it often Happens that the Enemy will end up behind the Agis defense Line you put there and get Cover from it. So you basically weaken yourself when you put a Defens Line before your Units.

[WarriorFish]

I can only echo the above; 8th is not an edition for fortifications, so they're all but forgotten lately. You can buy more squads for the cost which is much more useful in 8th (the edition of numbers) and you also tend to want to be quite mobile to catch objectives and try and push opponents back. What Guard units you have that would benefit from them won't gain any tangible benefits as your opponent will likely want to remove them, and that's not hard even with an improved save :confused:

 

So unfortunately aside from theme/looks fortifications are not a great idea for Guard (and probably so for most armies!).

[Berzul]

Ok so, clearly, the answer is: No. Don't use them.

 

Kinda sad, actually. I feel they add a lot of theme to a list. But, yeah. They are clearly the poorer choice.

[WarriorFish]

The answer is "use them if you want to" ;) Wanting to use something is enough reason to do so - Rule of Cool reigns supreme after all :P As long as you're informed on what they can do and what disadvantages there are you can make use of anything :)

[Berzul]

Well, yeah... But, fluff, when it comes to a heavy expense of utility, becomes less appealing.

 

I have no problem with not playing an optimized list, in order to prioritize lore and theme, but I still want to give my opponents a good challenge if I can, after all.

[WarriorFish]

I think there's room to experiment with some cheaper pieces - Guard are doing well in 8th edition so you can afford some "less optimal" choices. That and for a long time playing Guard has been mostly taking such choices Horde is strong in 8th, as is shooting so in most cases Guard can account for themselves well so it may depend on your opponents. Against certain armies they will appreciate the handicap... but Chapter Approved should hopefully do something about that too.

 

Could be a good way to guarantee some LoS blocking terrain for example, or a hard point to build a list around? Sounds like a good excuse for you to take some fortifications and report back to the barracks your experiences

[mertbl]

I like the idea of cadian lascannon heavy weapon squads in a bunker. LOS becomes an issue but still useful if nothing else as a threat to draw fire away from everything else.

Other than that, I think most of the fortifications are too expensive. A skyshield loaded with artillery, tanks, heavy weapons and wrapped in conscripts could be fun though.

[Berzul]

My thinking was, well, since only one squad can go inside a building, and with squad sized being what they are, and also with aura abilities, commands and other special rules all being negated inside a building, most fortifications can indeed be a bit pointless.

 

But, and I don't know if the base size of the models would allow it, but if you placed 2 infantry squads with lascannon teams inside a Defense Line, with a Platoon Commander, a Regimental Standard, and a Lord Commissar, you could get a bunch of guardsmen with a 4+ save, and a leadership of 11 (based off of the leadership 9 of the commissar, enhanced by 1 for the standard and 1 for the trenches).

 

You could then merge the squads to order them to fire, and even as it takes on enemy fire, you can withstand a lot of punishment before you begin worrying about morale.

[domsto]

My thinking was, well, since only one squad can go inside a building, and with squad sized being what they are, and also with aura abilities, commands and other special rules all being negated inside a building, most fortifications can indeed be a bit pointless.

 

But, and I don't know if the base size of the models would allow it, but if you placed 2 infantry squads with lascannon teams inside a Defense Line, with a Platoon Commander, a Regimental Standard, and a Lord Commissar, you could get a bunch of guardsmen with a 4+ save, and a leadership of 11 (based off of the leadership 9 of the commissar, enhanced by 1 for the standard and 1 for the trenches).

 

You could then merge the squads to order them to fire, and even as it takes on enemy fire, you can withstand a lot of punishment before you begin worrying about morale.

1. A Heavy Weapon Base is to big to fit in the Trench(But not much so you can place it on it and agree with your opponent that they are inside if it is a friendly Battle). In one Trench segment you hardly even get 10 Models in so for your plan you would need 2 defense Lines.

 

2. The Standart and Commissar ability doesn't stack. This stand in one of the FAQs but iam not sure witch one. Simply because the Commissar REPLACE the Ld. of the Unit with his own.

[our_baz]

 

 

My thinking was, well, since only one squad can go inside a building, and with squad sized being what they are, and also with aura abilities, commands and other special rules all being negated inside a building, most fortifications can indeed be a bit pointless.

 

But, and I don't know if the base size of the models would allow it, but if you placed 2 infantry squads with lascannon teams inside a Defense Line, with a Platoon Commander, a Regimental Standard, and a Lord Commissar, you could get a bunch of guardsmen with a 4+ save, and a leadership of 11 (based off of the leadership 9 of the commissar, enhanced by 1 for the standard and 1 for the trenches).

 

You could then merge the squads to order them to fire, and even as it takes on enemy fire, you can withstand a lot of punishment before you begin worrying about morale.

1. A Heavy Weapon Base is to big to fit in the Trench(But not much so you can place it on it and agree with your opponent that they are inside if it is a friendly Battle). In one Trench segment you hardly even get 10 Models in so for your plan you would need 2 defense Lines.

 

2. The Standart and Commissar ability doesn't stack. This stand in one of the FAQs but iam not sure witch one. Simply because the Commissar REPLACE the Ld. of the Unit with his own.

With point 2. U could get Ld 10. Use Mordian Regiment for +1Ld, standard +1Ld, trenches + 1Ld

[NatBrannigan]

I got some use out of an Aegis before I realised I was really hampering myself by not moving my Infantry forward. Since then I haven't taken any fortifications and can't say I've missed them. They were amazing when they granted an invulnerable cover save last edition but alas, not any more.

 

That said I'm looking at buying a Wall of Martyrs because lines of Mordian / Praetorian Infantry in a trench look great. It can always be used as regular terrain as well if you stick it in the middle of the table and take away the special rules. Just make sure you have some Bullgryns to countercharge because the enemy WILL get into your trench!

[Berzul]

Oh. Didn't know they didn't stack. Thabks for the heads up. And, also, if the heavy weapon teams don't fit in the defense line, might they fit in the firing emplacements maybe?

 

In any case, it seems best to just go with the +1Ld of the wall plus the +1Ld of the standard, over the static Ld of the commissar (although summary executions could be useful as well).

 

Or, discard them entirely! I really wish fortifications were cheaper and more worthwhile this edition...

[domsto]

Oh. Didn't know they didn't stack. Thabks for the heads up. And, also, if the heavy weapon teams don't fit in the defense line, might they fit in the firing emplacements maybe?

 

In any case, it seems best to just go with the +1Ld of the wall plus the +1Ld of the standard, over the static Ld of the commissar (although summary executions could be useful as well).

 

Or, discard them entirely! I really wish fortifications were cheaper and more worthwhile this edition...

The Firing emplacements are designed to hold the Heavy Weapon base. Thats why there are 3 parts per box. Even the hole in the Front armourplate is in the right high so your Lascannon will poke throw^^

I also think they had special Rules for HWTs back in 7th.

 

Your Units will end up with Ld.10 because the +1 form the Wall is for all Imperium Infantry so the Commissar will go to Ld.10 and give this to the Units. I would rather ditch the Standard. This think isn't worth its point at all.

 

Yes i wish too. I have a Tablespanning network of Wall of Martyr in my basement which never sees Table in it's intended role.

[Berzul]

Well, I just got a copy of the new Killzone for Kill Team, and the T¿au player of my group bought the starpulse but gave me the trenches, as he felt they were to "human" for his liking.

So, I do have 3 emplacements, 4 trenches, and a Bunker....

 

Once I begin collecting my army, I might put them to use, even if just for fun.

[Tirak]

Oh. Didn't know they didn't stack. Thabks for the heads up. And, also, if the heavy weapon teams don't fit in the defense line, might they fit in the firing emplacements maybe?

 

In any case, it seems best to just go with the +1Ld of the wall plus the +1Ld of the standard, over the static Ld of the commissar (although summary executions could be useful as well).

 

Or, discard them entirely! I really wish fortifications were cheaper and more worthwhile this edition...

 

Well Venner can have his leadership buffed by standards and the like, so with a Platoon Standard and a Regimental Standard you get +2, and if the wall grants +1 leadership that puts him at +3 for a Leadership 12. You have to play Death Korps though, but fortifications fit them well fluffwise.

 

EDIT: Spoke with my buddy on this on how he maximizes it.

 

Venner is 9, +1 for Uriah Jacobus, +1 for Platoon Banner, +1 Regimental Banner, +1 for being a friendly unit within 6in of himself with Inspiring Leader, +1 for the Wall. That gives you Leadership 14. Venner then broadcasts that leadership to any unit 12in from him, meaning he has a 25in (or 24.5 but close enough) bubble. You Toss Uriah in a Supreme Command Detachment with any psykers or other support units you want and you're golden.