Vanguard Vet best uses and loadouts

[UnkyHamHam]

The topic pretty much sums it up. I just received a box of them and ASM and am wanting to splash them together to do a 10 man unit.

 

What are some of your favorite and effective load outs? What are good units to run with them? CapSmash or Jump Chaplain maybe? Also what chapter tactics synergize well with them?

 

Edit: I know CA is due out soon. So this is a discussion based on current point costs I suppose.

[mertbl]

I like 10 with dual claws. I've toyed around with 5 with double plasma pistols and a unit of 5 with thunder hammer storm shields.

[MARK0SIAN]

Thunder hammer and storm shield is great but expensive. They can really hurt vehicles or big stuff that way.

 

As for support, chaplains are great but a librarian can also be good for giving them might of heroes. It means each marine will have three attacks that wound pretty much everything in the game on at least a three.

 

Black Templars Chapter tactic (rerolling failed charges) is great for them but stops you using the librarian. Other than that, salamanders is probably the best for the rerolls.

[mertbl]

Might only works on 1 model.

[MARK0SIAN]

Might only works on 1 model.

Dam! I’ve been using it wrong for a long time then! Luckily only in friendly games :)

[UnkyHamHam]

Might of Heroes would easily be one of the best powers in the game if it affected the whole unit haha. That's a big error, but I'm glad they were just friendly errors.

 

Do you think hammers are required in a knight rich environment? Hammers and shields seem so expensive for just 2 attacks and hitting on 4s.

 

I've heard much talk of dual chainswords. Are these guys ever worth it?

 

How about the single Melta bomb?

[HighMarshalAmp]

Who are you going up against?
If you're facing MEQs, Plasma Pistols and Power Axes will do the most damage on average against infantry.

Edit:

Might of Heroes would easily be one of the best powers in the game if it affected the whole unit haha. That's a big error, but I'm glad they were just friendly errors.

Do you think hammers are required in a knight rich environment? Hammers and shields seem so expensive for just 2 attacks and hitting on 4s.

I've heard much talk of dual chainswords. Are these guys ever worth it?

How about the single Melta bomb?

I've never regretted taking a Melta bomb.
Dual Chainswords? I run MSU Crusader Squads with CS/BP sometimes and even I'm telling you: if you're not facing hordes, don't take two CSs.

I'll get back to you on Hammer vs Power Weapons as soon as I've worked the numbers out.

 

Alrighty, this is the situation:

Against a Knight with S8, T8, Sv 3+, a VV with his 2 attacks will do an average of:

 

Thunder Hammer: 0,42 Wounds, 1,26 Damage

 

Power Sword: 0,18 Wounds, 0,18 Damage

 

Power Axe: 0,30 Wounds, 0,30 Damage

 

Single Chainsword (accounting for bonus attack): 0,08 Wounds, 0,08 Damage

 

Double Chainswords (accounting for bonus attacks): 0,16 Wounds, 0,16 Damage

 

The TH kinda wins and the double Chainswords still fall short of the Power Sword.

However, the TH is expensive, so how about the points?

Per POINT, a VV with his 2 attacks will do an average of:

 

Thunder Hammer: 0,02 Wounds per Point, 0,06 Damage per Point

 

Power Sword: 0,04 Wounds per Point, 0,04 Damage per Point

 

Power Axe: 0,06 Wounds per Point, 0,06 Damage per Point

 

Winner per point would be the Chainsword as the most point efficient tool of mauling in the list, which is easy if you're available for free, followed by the Power Axe.

 

Edited to fix a typo.

[MARK0SIAN]

Might of Heroes would easily be one of the best powers in the game if it affected the whole unit haha. That's a big error, but I'm glad they were just friendly errors.

 

Do you think hammers are required in a knight rich environment? Hammers and shields seem so expensive for just 2 attacks and hitting on 4s.

 

I've heard much talk of dual chainswords. Are these guys ever worth it?

 

How about the single Melta bomb?

I’ve never run them against knights however my Knight Warden has been on the receiving end of vanguard vets with thunder hammer and storm shield buffed by a captain and it hurt a lot! They didn’t outright kill it but stripped so many wounds it was useless and died the next turn to a single lascannon shot.

[Captain Idaho]

I use 3 with Storm Shield and Chainsword, 3 with dual Chainswords and 4 with dual Lightning Claws as a sort of meat grinder unit. Works well enough so far.

 

Harder targets can be a problem such as Tyranid Monsters etc but the theory is I shoot those.

[justicarius6]

Only squad I've used this edition is:

 

4 x SS/Powerfist

3 x Dual LC

3 x Powerfist/CS

 

Why powerfists? In 7th my squad was half PF/SS, half PF/LC. And to be honest from an aesthetic feel, I've never been overly keen on using thunderhammers on anything other than terminators/heroes. Just doesn't seem right to me.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I've always been of the opinion that we as Space Marines players should shoot the big stuff; Knights have such gross firepower that you're going to lose models getting into charge range and probably a few more to Overwatch, so just lascannon the thing to death. Hordes, though, can be fairly easily handled in melee and tends to have less voluminous and less lethal shooting. I'll freely admit that I have never used VV, but I feel double claw or double chainsword to maximize your attack numbers and then throw them into infantry would be the best course of action.

[Captain Idaho]

That's my theory. Though perhaps a power fist could exist in there to promote its ability to hurt characters that might be involved in the combat.

 

Not that I would now - the unit is modelled and painted!

[UnkyHamHam]

I definitely like the idea of running dual lightning claws along side a jump Caplain. And maybe a few hammers and Fists thrown in for good measure.

 

How many storm shields do people usually throw into a 10 man squad? I'm seeing 2-4.

 

Are the relic blades useful? And as much as the plasma pistol and power axe build sounds awesome, I can't help but wonder if pistols are a waste of time, since you want to be charging. Am I wrong?

[HighMarshalAmp]

I definitely like the idea of running dual lightning claws along side a jump Caplain. And maybe a few hammers and Fists thrown in for good measure.

 

How many storm shields do people usually throw into a 10 man squad? I'm seeing 2-4.

 

Are the relic blades useful? And as much as the plasma pistol and power axe build sounds awesome, I can't help but wonder if pistols are a waste of time, since you want to be charging. Am I wrong?

You are - every turn has a shooting phase before the charge and you will probably be in pistol range if you're in charge range ;)

A few pistols don't hurt.

 

Besides, what else are you gonna give them? You won't have 10 Storm Shields, so you might as well give the non-shield guys a second chance to contribute.

 

The Relic Blade... costs as much as the Thunder Hammer, but only has 1d3 damage instead of 3. And iirc only +2 S instead of x2.

Do you really want that? ;)

[mertbl]

My concern with pistols would be blasting away your charge target. That said if you could blow away a few neighboring models that might stop a tau player from "greater gooding" go for it.

 

 

I definitely like the idea of running dual lightning claws along side a jump Caplain. And maybe a few hammers and Fists thrown in for good measure.

 

How many storm shields do people usually throw into a 10 man squad? I'm seeing 2-4.

 

Are the relic blades useful? And as much as the plasma pistol and power axe build sounds awesome, I can't help but wonder if pistols are a waste of time, since you want to be charging. Am I wrong?

You are - every turn has a shooting phase before the charge and you will probably be in pistol range if you're in charge range ;)

A few pistols don't hurt.

 

Besides, what else are you gonna give them? You won't have 10 Storm Shields, so you might as well give the non-shield guys a second chance to contribute.

 

The Relic Blade... costs as much as the Thunder Hammer, but only has 1d3 damage instead of 3. And iirc only +2 S instead of x2.

Do you really want that? ;)

[UnkyHamHam]

My concern with pistols would be blasting away your charge target. That said if you could blow away a few neighboring models that might stop a tau player from "greater gooding" go for it.

 

 

 

I definitely like the idea of running dual lightning claws along side a jump Caplain. And maybe a few hammers and Fists thrown in for good measure.

 

How many storm shields do people usually throw into a 10 man squad? I'm seeing 2-4.

 

Are the relic blades useful? And as much as the plasma pistol and power axe build sounds awesome, I can't help but wonder if pistols are a waste of time, since you want to be charging. Am I wrong?

You are - every turn has a shooting phase before the charge and you will probably be in pistol range if you're in charge range ;)

A few pistols don't hurt.

 

Besides, what else are you gonna give them? You won't have 10 Storm Shields, so you might as well give the non-shield guys a second chance to contribute.

 

The Relic Blade... costs as much as the Thunder Hammer, but only has 1d3 damage instead of 3. And iirc only +2 S instead of x2.

Do you really want that? ;)

That was exactly my concern. The enemy removing closer models and making the charge range larger and thus the charge harder to pull off.

 

The guys who would have pistols could instead just have a free chainsword, couldn't they? So they can still contribute in the assault. Plus it's free.

 

The relic blade doesn't have the - 1 tp hit like the hammer and fist tho. Are you saying there's no value in that? I guess I do understand that a hammer looks superior on paper, especially on the Sarge who has 3 attacks.

[HighMarshalAmp]

 

The relic blade doesn't have the - 1 tp hit like the hammer and fist tho. Are you saying there's no value in that? I guess I do understand that a hammer looks superior on paper, especially on the Sarge who has 3 attacks.

 

There's some value, but not enough. Here's the numbers per attack against S8 T8 Sv3+. A VV has 2 attacks, so that would just be the numbers x2 (but they can't take the RB), for the Sarge, it's the numbers x3.

 

TH: 0,21 Wounds/ Attack; 0,63 Damage/ Attack; 0,01 Wounds/ Point

 

RB: 0,19 Wounds/ Attack; 0,37 Damage/ Attack; 0,01 Wounds/ Point

 

Also, I was wrong, the Relic Blade costs more than the TH on the Sergeant. Sorry. It's an even worse choice than I had initially thought 

 

About the CS: Against something like a Termagant (S3 T3 Sv6+), two attacks with a Chainsword would be preferable to one with anything else. The more attacks you have, the narrower the edge of the CS gets until it is gone at some point and another weapon will likely kill the most models.

Some numbers just for fun:

CS: 0,37 W/ A

TH: 0,42 W/ A

[justicarius6]

Relic blades could and should have their use, but they're overcosted for what you get. If they were powerfist price they'd be a viable alternative to them and the TH.

[Kallas]

Relic Blades are definitely too expensive.

[Deschenus Maximus]

I'm contemplating a shooty VV squad featuring a mix of bolt and plasma pistols, with a few stormshields thrown in for good measure.

[HighMarshalAmp]

I'm contemplating a shooty VV squad featuring a mix of bolt and plasma pistols, with a few stormshields thrown in for good measure.

Shooty? Frankly, if you want to focus on shooting, with the Pistols' range, I'd just use Devs with Plasma Cannons. You have the shields alright, but you're putting Veterans with Jump Packs in what is rapid fire range for most enemies and you're giving them pistols - pistols! - to try and kill those enemies and then hope the Storm Shields will keep them alive.

Highly mobile Plasma is fine and all, but long range keeps you out of range and alive for longer...

 

If you give the VVs Power Weapons to go along with the Plasma, those Power Weapons will become their main armament. So they won't really be shooty then either.

[UnkyHamHam]

I'm contemplating a shooty VV squad featuring a mix of bolt and plasma pistols, with a few stormshields thrown in for good measure.

I thought about creating a gunslinging Vanguard for Deathwatch.

 

2x plasma as a Dark Angel

2x grav as an Iron Hand

2x bolt as an Imperial Fist

2x Inferno as a Blood Angel

2x hand flamer as a Salamander

 

It's probably a silly idea, but would be neat.

 

It's a shame about the relic blade. It's a cool weapon. I might magnetize my Sarge for a swap of relic blade, power fist, hammer.

 

Right now I'm feeling this set up based on feed back:

 

1x Sarge with TH/PP

5x dual LCs

2x TH/SS

2x CS/SS

 

Edit: throw a MB on a guy too

[HighMarshalAmp]

 

I'm contemplating a shooty VV squad featuring a mix of bolt and plasma pistols, with a few stormshields thrown in for good measure.

I thought about creating a gunslinging Vanguard for Deathwatch.

 

2x plasma as a Dark Angel

2x grav as an Iron Hand

2x bolt as an Imperial Fist

2x Inferno as a Blood Angel

2x hand flamer as a Salamander

 

It's probably a silly idea, but would be neat.

 

It's a shame about the relic blade. It's a cool weapon. I might magnetize my Sarge for a swap of relic blade, power fist, hammer.

 

Right now I'm feeling this set up based on feed back:

 

1x Sarge with TH/PP

5x dual LCs

2x TH/SS

2x CS/SS

 

Edit: throw a MB on a guy too

 

C'mon, that DW unit is too cool not to go for it!

 

About the dual LCs, just 'cause I've kinda fallen into a pattern in this thread:

Against T8 SV3+, one single attack would cause 0,14 wounds - a Power Sword 0,19 - but you get the bonus attack from having 2 Claws. So that's 0,42 wounds caused over the course of the resulting 3 attacks total on a VV. That's exactly what a TH would get you, and even for the same price. Mind you, the Claws do only 1 D, the TH 3, but against a group of enemies, 3 attacks are one more than two...

 

Good call on not putting LCs on the Sergeant btw, he'll cause 0,63 wounds with the TH instead of 0,56 with his hypothetical LCs.

 

Bad call on going for a 10 man squad though. Always go for multiple squads if you need to get a charge off!

Go for two 5 man Squads, you'll get another Sergeant with his +1A and double your chances of getting a charge off.

What do you think about two squads like this:

1x Sarge with TH/PP

2x dual LCs

1x TH/SS

1x CS/SS

 

Edit: Of course, the Shields are the first ones to die, so giving the second guy who will kick the bucket the TH might be considered a bad choice.

[Captain Idaho]

I really don't think Storm Shields should be combined with any other upgrades on a single wound model. Storm Shields are your red shirts.

 

@ HighMarshalAmp: sorry maths isn't my strong point - are you saying a power sword is superior against T8 3+ sv targets than a Lightning on an attack by attack basis? Does that count the reroll to wound?

[HighMarshalAmp]

I really don't think Storm Shields should be combined with any other upgrades on a single wound model. Storm Shields are your red shirts.

 

@ HighMarshalAmp: sorry maths isn't my strong point - are you saying a power sword is superior against T8 3+ sv targets than a Lightning on an attack by attack basis? Does that count the reroll to wound?

Yeah, I had realized the redshirt part as well.

Maybe if you added another CS/SS guy to make 'em 6?

1x Sarge with TH/PP

2x dual LCs

2x CS/SS

1x TH/PP

 

About the PS, yes, that's what I'm saying. The re-roll helps a bit, but since the VV is S4, he only wounds on a 6+. You get to re-roll all the 1s to 5s, but even those rolls only wound on a 6.

To be honest, I was surprised myself that the re-roll didn't make up for the lack in AP the LC has compared to the PS.

What the LCs do to leave the PS in the dust after all is that bonus attack, but only with that do they become superior.