Leaving the comfort zone of Citadel (GW) paints ...

[Helias_Tancred]

Subject line says it all.

 

 

I'm wondering about the other paint lines, namely Vallejo and P3.

 

1. Do you need to use water to thin those paints like you do Citadel (GW) base and layer paints?

 

2. Any preference between the two and why?

 

3. Please tell me that both Vallejo and P3 will last longer in their pots versus Citadel (GW)  :)

 

 

Thanks.

 

[N1SB]

Long story short - I grew up using GW paints, then switched to Vallejo because that's what my FLGS at the time stocked, then when my FLGS moved away while Warhammer Stores moved in closer to me, I switched back to GW.  So I really compared the two and I prefer Vallejo paints BUT also prefer GW washes/inks.

 

1. I don't QUITE add water to Vallejo paints in the same way as I do with GW paints.  With GW paints, I have to consciously "break it down" with water because I find it way too thick, 2 think coats is right.  With Vallejo paints, I merely wet my brush, then paint, so I still use some water but it's not like with GW paints.  Basically Vallejo is thinner.

 

2. I do prefer Vallejo paints personally, and it's not just the watering down issue.  For me, I think it was because of Orks.  It started when I returned to The Hobby and had an old box of the Black Reach set (like 6th had just come out IIRC, but they had a few boxes of Black Reach, and I wanted Orks).  Vallejo had a goblin green paint that felt much more matt, and I mention this because a friend painted the same miniatures with GW paints and...maybe he didn't water down his paints as much, but his Orks looked plasticky while my Orks' green skin looked like green skin.  I don't know if that's true across the board or the fact that I found GW paint looks better if you watered it down much more.  Now, this friend paints straight from the pot and I noticed the texture of the paint really changes when you add water (more than just being more diluted and thinner), but it's something that stuck in my mind.  It continues to be true as I was just watching this friend paint at the GW store just this weekend, they always look too glossy, I dunno.  So this isn't scientific, just personal preference and experience...I'm sure there's other factors, but something I noticed.

 

3. on the drying out issue, I didn't think too much about it before but it's true!  I've had Vallejo paints for years in their little droppers, and most of them are still fine.  However, a pot of GW White Scar which I'm sure I bought within just the last year has gone rock solid.  It's NOT for all colours, some Vallejo paints dry out faster than others, but even with a split cap on a dropper, it's still paint (whereas some GW paint pots, closed properly, still turns into clay in about a year).  The green I mentioned really has turned solid...but that's because I bought it like 5+ years ago.  Aside from that particular colour, I think all my other Vallejo paints are still good.  It might be a bit more gooey, but I was just looking at my GW pots and they're either solid or completely separated like an emulsion (like how fat or oil floats on top of soup if you leave it too long).

 

That said, it's all just personal preferences, so don't take my comments above too seriously.  And as mentioned before, I really prefer GW INKS and washes to anything.  Like I'll go buy a GW paint because the FLGS that sold Vallejo paints moved away and I'm too lazy to go to it now, but even if that wasn't the case, I'd definitely go out of my way to get GW inks like Agrax Earthshade and Nihilakh Oxide, etc.

[Closet Skeleton]

GW's current washes are talc based paints and haven't been inks for a long time. I don't mean to nitpick but Vallejo does apparently still have an ink range, just not one I've ever seen in a shop. Inks give a shinier effect while talc based washes can result in a dulled chalky effect if used on too much of a model. Last ink I used was P3 blue ink which i find is better at tinting than a wash. Coat d'arms still sell the old Citadel ink washes but the gloss versions of the GW washes make them less necessary.

 

I've mostly been using army painter washes due to getting a free set in a competition. They seem about even with the GW washes.

 

I have a few Vallejo paints but I'm not used to dropper bottles so rarely use them. Their yellow is just as bad as citadel yellows. I've never used their metalics or washes.

[Carlson793]

Their metallics do nicely, and if they don't have the metallic color you want, you can always buy a bottle of Metal Medium (70.521) and mix your own. Metal Medium also looks great straight from the bottle for bare metal on piston shafts.

Like N1SB said, Vallejo paints tend to be thinner than Citadel, to the point you can use them straight from the bottle and get the same results as thinned Citadel. 

 

Another big advantage of Vallejo over Citadel: in a couple years, Luftwaffe Uniform WWII is still gonna be Luftwaffe Uniform WWII, and on the exceedingly rare chance it's not, that color will still be product number 70.816. I've only seen the name change on one Vallejo Model Color paint in the five years I've been using them, and even then is was just the addition or removal of one word in the name.

[Canadian_F_H]

My brother and have switched to Vallejo army painter system and have been quite happy with it.

 

I have a few other Vallejo paints for variety and effects and such. "model air" and "model Color" which are more for historical Hobby kits. The air is just a thinned version of their regular model paints. Also picked up a dropper of their air thinner. I use it to thin instead of water. Don't need much at all, but I have really bad tap water at home, so that can actually cause problems.

[Imren]

1. Short answer yes, long answer depends: Vallejo have the following main paint ranges:

•     Vallejo Model Colour (VMC, duller muted colours for scale modelers, WW2 tanks, airplaces etc, thick paint)
•     Vallejo Game Colour (VGC, more "illustrious" vibrant colours, made to mimic GW för fantasy and sci-fi models, thick paint)
•    Vallejo Model Air (VMA, same range as VMC but thinner paint made to be airbrush ready)
•     Vallejo Game Air (VGA, same range as VGC but thinner paint made to be airbrush ready)
•     Vallejo Mecha Colour (new paint range made for japanese gunpla/gundam style robot warrior models, these paints are made to be more scratch resistant and have vibrant colours. thinner paint to be airbrush ready)

So, VMC and VGC you will need to thin regardless of how you paint (airbrush or paintbrush, dry palette or wet palette). VMA, VGA and mecha colours don't have to be thinned to be airbrushed, but I still recommend to thin them for smoother layers and more control, especially if you airbrush details (also a drop of flow improver in the reservoir cup when airbrushing will prevent tip drying and splatters).

Advantage with vallejo: Huge colour range, manufacturer really don't change the paint range or paint naming over time. They have their paints as main business, not dependent on own miniatures/models or games business (don't have any afaik), they have consistent paint range that they add to, meaning you'll most likely find the same brown 15 years ago as today and they will still have it 15 years from now (most likely).

Disadvantage with Vallejo: The paint separates relatively quickly. In the bottle and especially on wet palette. So I would not recommend them for people that use glazing and wet palettes as their paint method.

P3 is a paint range made by a miniatures and games producer, the paint and and the paint range is designed by ex-GW employees. The paint range is relatively small and colours are vibrant more fantasy and sci-fi oriented. The paint viscosity is a bit between airbrush paint and Scale75, meaning that they are not very thick (slightly thinner than VMC) but thicker than airbrush paints. The have a bit of paint retarder (dries slightly slower) mixed in so they are convenient to use with wet-blending technique. They use a liquid pigment (except metallics) which allows enhanced thinning capability, they therefore thin very well and they are excellent for glazing and wetblending.

Advantage P3: The slowest separating paint I know of, they separate in the pots when long term stored but mixes up easily after a few shakes, They don't separate on wet palettes, they thin better than many other paint lines without breaking up after mixing the thinner, they wet-blend easily.

Disadvantage P3: smallish paint range, the metallics are not as good (large a bit grainy pigments)as other paint makers (I think scale 75 and Vallejo are the best today when it comes to acrylic metallic paints).


Conclusion: If I had to choose only one paint line between vallejo and P3 I'd choose P3, because its characteristics makes it a more versatile paint than vallejo paints, P3 is smoother, doesn't separate, airbrushes very well when thinned (thinned P3 paint airbrushes way smoother than many ready-made airbrush paints) and do all paint brush techniques (glazing, layering, wetblending, drybrushing) very well.

Recommendation: Get the base paints in P3 (black, white, mid-tones of red, yellow, green, blue, brown, skin-tone). If you like them then expand your P3 paint collection.

So for non-metallic paints try out the P3 range, and for metallic paints do the following with vallejo paints (because Vallejo does metallics way better than P3 except for P3 blighted gold, which I think is very cool darkish gold colour that I like alot):

For airbrushing silver metallics get the vallejo metal colour chrome and gunmetal. For paintbrushing metallic colours get VMA gun metal, VMA steel and VMA chrome.

For metallic golds, check out P3 blighted gold, its a very cool dredy dark goldish paint. for regular golds skip P3 and vallejo alltogether and get the scale75 golds (dwarwen gold, elven gold and victorian brass), also I recommend Scale75 for copper and bronze colours.

[Razblood]

I use both Vallejo Game Color and P3 in concert as there are colours in the P3 range that are hard if not impossible to find in other ranges.

 

P3 tend to have excellent coverage with the only colour I've had issues with being Heartfire which is very similar to old Golden Yellow, other than that they tend to cover in one coat. They have the best white I've found in Morrow White and some really nice browns, reds, greens and blues

 

Vallejo Game Color can be a bit off with the colour consistency, but the range is large and at least as good as Citadel, though I'd recommend avoiding Bloody Red and Gold Yellow as I've yet to find a bottle that covers well and doesn't separate really badly.

[Gederas]

I use both Vallejo Game Color and P3 in concert as there are colours in the P3 range that are hard if not impossible to find in other ranges.

 

P3 tend to have excellent coverage with the only colour I've had issues with being Heartfire which is very similar to old Golden Yellow, other than that they tend to cover in one coat. They have the best white I've found in Morrow White and some really nice browns, reds, greens and blues

 

Vallejo Game Color can be a bit off with the colour consistency, but the range is large and at least as good as Citadel, though I'd recommend avoiding Bloody Red and Gold Yellow as I've yet to find a bottle that covers well and doesn't separate really badly.

I'm in agreement. P3 has some colours that are IMPOSSIBLE to replicate with other ranges. One of my favorite examples is Necrotite Green, which is what I use in conjunction with Nurgle's Rot for the slime on my Nurgle models to make a VERY vibrant green slime.

[Imren]

Isn't necrot

 

 

I use both Vallejo Game Color and P3 in concert as there are colours in the P3 range that are hard if not impossible to find in other ranges.

P3 tend to have excellent coverage with the only colour I've had issues with being Heartfire which is very similar to old Golden Yellow, other than that they tend to cover in one coat. They have the best white I've found in Morrow White and some really nice browns, reds, greens and blues

Vallejo Game Color can be a bit off with the colour consistency, but the range is large and at least as good as Citadel, though I'd recommend avoiding Bloody Red and Gold Yellow as I've yet to find a bottle that covers well and doesn't separate really badly.

I'm in agreement. P3 has some colours that are IMPOSSIBLE to replicate with other ranges. One of my favorite examples is Necrotite Green, which is what I use in conjunction with Nurgle's Rot for the slime on my Nurgle models to make a VERY vibrant green slime.

 

 

Isn't Necrotite green close to VGC scorpy green or GW moot green?

[Gederas]

I use both Vallejo Game Color and P3 in concert as there are colours in the P3 range that are hard if not impossible to find in other ranges.

 

P3 tend to have excellent coverage with the only colour I've had issues with being Heartfire which is very similar to old Golden Yellow, other than that they tend to cover in one coat. They have the best white I've found in Morrow White and some really nice browns, reds, greens and blues

 

Vallejo Game Color can be a bit off with the colour consistency, but the range is large and at least as good as Citadel, though I'd recommend avoiding Bloody Red and Gold Yellow as I've yet to find a bottle that covers well and doesn't separate really badly.

I'm in agreement. P3 has some colours that are IMPOSSIBLE to replicate with other ranges. One of my favorite examples is Necrotite Green, which is what I use in conjunction with Nurgle's Rot for the slime on my Nurgle models to make a VERY vibrant green slime.

 

Isn't Necrotite green close to VGC scorpy green or GW moot green?

Nope. Necrotite is borderline Neon Green, whereas the other two are bright, but not that bright.

 

For example, Mortarion here has Necrotite Green on the slime on his mask, and on his base:

 

That's way brighter than VGC Scorpion Green or GW Moot Green.

[Daigo Cannon]

I paint with vallejo from the start, as it was the main paint range my store sells. From my recent experience assiting GW Citadel cafe I have come in contat with GW paints, see and experiment the GW painting method.

 

I'm baffle at GW method, pick paint from the pod to a dry paper piece to remove excess and to the miniature, water optional.

 

So here are my best tips.

If you gonna work with vallejo get a wet palette.

Their color range is awesome 5-6 dfferent lines of paints you can choose from, this can be overwhelming but is good too as you have choices. You can use them just with the water on you brush or thin them as much as you want to, I have seen experience painter use a color on their wet palette for a week

 

Cons: GW give you a base, a glaze, dry brush, wash, etc. On vallejo(and all other paint companies) you have paints, washes and inks, you need to know how to dilute the paint so you can use it as a glaze or dry brush, this is a plus too as you too can use this to create a wash of any color, but it require testing and knowledge that some peole prefer a more easy to transit road.

 

But in general top painters use paints from all companies, as mentioned on the thread a GW yellow can be better than vallejo, but vallejo blue is superior and a P3 green tone has no match in any of the other 2.

[Canadian_F_H]

I did run into an issue the other day..m. apparently the gold Vallejo paint I have. The nozzle of the paint dropper is split and leaks paint into the cap badly... Do they sell replacements? They appear to be removable but haven't tried yet.

 

 

Also, Dang the ultramarine blue is settled into 2 shades of blue and will not mix no matter how much I shake it... Perhaps if the nozzle can be removed I can stir it?

[Calyptra]

I haven't used GW paint since they discontinued and replaced their entire range. However awesome their current paints may be, I won't buy them because I don't trust them not to discontinue those paints too. I don't care how good the paint is if I can't get any more of it.

 

I use some Vallejo. I can't stand the dropper bottles, because sometimes I just want to put half a brush of paint on my pallet, as opposed to a splodge. I've also had issues with several Vallejo pigments separating from the emulsion which were exacerbated by not easily being able to stir the paint on account of the dropper. You can pull it out and then push it back in, but it's still a narrow aperture and a pain. All of that said, there are a few Vallejo colors that are essential parts of my pallet, and Vallejo in general is relatively inexpensive and readily available. Also, I don't think I've ever had a Vallejo color dry out. Separate to the point of being unusable, yes, but not dry out.

 

My preferred paint range is P3, despite them being a bit more expensive and not sold in my local stores. P3 paints are the same stuff as Coat D'Arms and the very old GW paints. I just find them to have a nicer consistency and provide better coverage, with the exception of the metallics.

[Razblood]

I did run into an issue the other day..m. apparently the gold Vallejo paint I have. The nozzle of the paint dropper is split and leaks paint into the cap badly... Do they sell replacements? They appear to be removable but haven't tried yet.

 

 

Also, Dang the ultramarine blue is settled into 2 shades of blue and will not mix no matter how much I shake it... Perhaps if the nozzle can be removed I can stir it?

You can pop out the nozzle on Vallejo bottles, though stirring could be tricky because the aperture is quite small though you might be able to get something like a kebab skewer in there.

 

I'd recommend you get some glass or hematite beads 6mm in size to use as agitators, they're quite cheap on eBay.

[Canadian_F_H]

The beads as aggitators is a good idea!

 

I need to see if they have replacement nozzles still...

[Razblood]

The beads as aggitators is a good idea!

 

I need to see if they have replacement nozzles still...

As far as I know they don't sell separate nozzles, however a simple fix is to remove and clean the nozzle, run a small amount of thick poly cement down the split and the cut a piece of sellotape long enough to go round the nozzle in one layer.

[Arkhanist]

I did run into an issue the other day..m. apparently the gold Vallejo paint I have. The nozzle of the paint dropper is split and leaks paint into the cap badly... Do they sell replacements? They appear to be removable but haven't tried yet.

 

 

Also, Dang the ultramarine blue is settled into 2 shades of blue and will not mix no matter how much I shake it... Perhaps if the nozzle can be removed I can stir it?

 

The nozzles can be removed, it's how I add the agitators - you can also get motorised stirrers than fit in there, but I've never needed one.

 

You can buy empty replacement dropper bottles; either literal vallejo ones or cheaper ones in bulk, so you can swap the dropper nozzle or worst case decant it entirely into the new bottle. Vallejo bottles are 17ml, you can easily get those or 15 or 20ml ones which use similar or identical nozzles; I decant citadel air paints into 15ml ones.