Who knew of the primaris project?

[vanimal]

just spitballing ideas, but in order for Cawl to create the primaris, i assume he would of done some research as to what these new marines would need in regards to tactics, abilities and weapons.

 

so is it plausible that some existing chapeters new about this to provide feedback? or inavertantly contributed?

 

An example being the Mentors legion, could it be that their role of reseach into weapons and other chapetrs ways of war was for the development of the primaris project?

 

they also had elite squads of "superior" marines , could these of been primaris testing?

 

or maybe they did this research and where unaware of their role, as in they where created as a chapter, but did not know that actually their findings where contributing to the secret primaris project?

 

I believe they are in this kind of role in the new lore as well , as they are in the new emperors spears book? observing if an understrength chapter can be saved?

 

what do you guys think? plausible or not?

[Dumah]

It's certainly a possibility. I've seen similar speculation that the Sons of Antaeus might well be Primaris Marines (known for being overly large and resilient; mysterious genetic heritage). Perhaps another case for a testbed chapter?

[BrotherAtrox]

just spitballing ideas, but in order for Cawl to create the primaris, i assume he would of done some research as to what these new marines would need in regards to tactics, abilities and weapons.

 

so is it plausible that some existing chapeters new about this to provide feedback? or inavertantly contributed?

 

An example being the Mentors legion, could it be that their role of reseach into weapons and other chapetrs ways of war was for the development of the primaris project?

 

they also had elite squads of "superior" marines , could these of been primaris testing?

 

or maybe they did this research and where unaware of their role, as in they where created as a chapter, but did not know that actually their findings where contributing to the secret primaris project?

 

I believe they are in this kind of role in the new lore as well , as they are in the new emperors spears book? observing if an understrength chapter can be saved?

 

what do you guys think? plausible or not?

 

Very plausible.

 

Despite a brief period in the 5th Ed. Codex that wrote them as being "secretive" and "working alone" (which goes against their literal name as well as their established lore) - the Mentors are usually regarded as something of a research and development chapter, one that does a lot of cross training. And if you read their wiki/lexicanum articles, they make an even more appealing candidate for being part of Cawl's works. Mysterious origins, unknown primogeniotr, unknown fortress-monastery, weird overlaps with the Star Scorpions, sending small units as reinforcements that even other marines describe as having "unparalleled" skill but still turn the tides of a battle, close ties with the AdMech, long history of acting as liasions, etc.

 

Pair all this with the role of Mentors in the new Spears novel, which is about rescuing a dying chapter, and contains a short story titled "The First Primaris"... it's definitely an interesting theory. I haven't gotten my copy of the book but I'm told the LEs are arriving in people's mailboxes as we speak.

[Xenith]

It's a big universe. Anything is possible.

 

Mentors, Sons of Antaeus, any of the dark founding.

 

Sons of Antaeus in particular, as they are rumoured to use DG gene seed, and Cawl was said to have messed around with some traitor geneseed in the past. They also disappear and reappear quickly like Legion of the Damned, might be special Martian transports. 

 

My real question is what happened to MkIX armour. 

[vanimal]

 

just spitballing ideas, but in order for Cawl to create the primaris, i assume he would of done some research as to what these new marines would need in regards to tactics, abilities and weapons.

 

so is it plausible that some existing chapeters new about this to provide feedback? or inavertantly contributed?

 

An example being the Mentors legion, could it be that their role of reseach into weapons and other chapetrs ways of war was for the development of the primaris project?

 

they also had elite squads of "superior" marines , could these of been primaris testing?

 

or maybe they did this research and where unaware of their role, as in they where created as a chapter, but did not know that actually their findings where contributing to the secret primaris project?

 

I believe they are in this kind of role in the new lore as well , as they are in the new emperors spears book? observing if an understrength chapter can be saved?

 

what do you guys think? plausible or not?

 

Very plausible.

 

Despite a brief period in the 5th Ed. Codex that wrote them as being "secretive" and "working alone" (which goes against their literal name as well as their established lore) - the Mentors are usually regarded as something of a research and development chapter, one that does a lot of cross training. And if you read their wiki/lexicanum articles, they make an even more appealing candidate for being part of Cawl's works. Mysterious origins, unknown primogeniotr, unknown fortress-monastery, weird overlaps with the Star Scorpions, sending small units as reinforcements that even other marines describe as having "unparalleled" skill but still turn the tides of a battle, close ties with the AdMech, long history of acting as liasions, etc.

 

Pair all this with the role of Mentors in the new Spears novel, which is about rescuing a dying chapter, and contains a short story titled "The First Primaris"... it's definitely an interesting theory. I haven't gotten my copy of the book but I'm told the LEs are arriving in people's mailboxes as we speak.

 

 agreed reading about the start scorpions and their demise, plus the three chapters created together to guard that sector of space included the emperors spears?

 

coincidence probably, but it would be cool if some fluff did appear about primaris research or testing, especially if say the mentors had no idea they where being used? Maybe they where told the research they conducted was for the high lords but in fact was Cawl playing them the whole time?

 

what repercussions would that have on the moentors when they find out they where used?

 

I am currently writing fluff to theme a primaris army based on multiple chapters being lead/ observed by mentors legion characters. The idea that guilliman is using them to test if the previous greysheild/unnumbered sons still remember how to fight together , or if over the last century their specific chapter rights and dogma have caused segregation ?

 

plus it gives me an excuse to paint a lot of different stuff, im thinking doom eagles, knights errant, rainbow warriors and mantis warriors.

[Race Bannon]

Punting to Amicus for broader discussion :tu:

[Cyrox]

I like the idea that the Mentor's could be aware of the Primaris project, certainly would fit their lore

[Rik Lightstar]

How about the Minotaurs, they fit the bill for being unknowing early Primaris.

 

They're big, shadowy past, tough, and go through other marines (Chaos, Rebel or just a bit questionable) like a train.

 

Rik

[N1SB]

What a great line of inquiry.  I haven't read The First Primaris yet, but you guys sold me on reading it (more than GW's marketing push did lol).

 

 

so is it plausible that some existing chapeters new about this to provide feedback? or inavertantly contributed?

 

what do you guys think? plausible or not?

 

Yes, I think it's plausible, because I've heard it happen in the course of my professional life.  Not some conspiracy theory, this came up in a dinner...and my source wasn't drunk, we were just swapping stories.  Disclaimer - no politics in this post, it was just a valuable lesson kindly given to me for if and when something like this ever came up.  Not saying 40k is anything related to real life, but it just offers such a good shared frame of reference, I share it now, because I think it's safe to, and it's very informative.  This happened years ago.

 

A company that manufactures a lot of things was approached by a military of an allied country.  It was a tender for some equipment that that particular military needed.  It wasn't some Iron Man Stark Industries stuff, nothing fancy, just a very complete, thorough and detailed project plan/blueprints/etc.  It was "build this, exactly this and nothing else."  To my understanding, it was so complete a plan/blueprint/etc., that no questions were asked because none needed to be.  I'm personally guessing whatever budget that military offered was big enough for a "no questions asked, or we go to another vendor" situation, which probably should come as no surprise to anyone here, right?

 

To this company, it looked like some kind of refrigeration unit.  It was years ago and there were military conflicts in hot, desert areas, and not making light of it and not adding political commentary, but there still are, so a cooling unit makes perfect sense because those are literally hot zones.  Again, no surprise, it's just logical.

 

This company makes the thing and delivers it on-time/within-budget/etc.  Its top engineers and their business guys, like their chairman and CXOs and stuff, get invited by this military to a stadium to celebrate the completion of the project, where they would unveil what they made.  The stadium was empty...except for other military people AND this company's competitors/partners/frienemies.  They're all very polite to each other for this special event, professionally courteous.

 

Before the big unveiling, the military plays their nationality's anthem, in this stadium like a sporting event.  OF COURSE something seems to go wrong.  You guys ever been to an open air concert and the band's rocking out then some commercial plane flies overhead and drowns out the music?  That exact thing happened.  And this company was looking for their refrigeration unit to be wheeled out, but they're engineers, they instinctively noticed it was too tall to fit through the doors where the athletes would enter the stadium from.  So they have no idea what's going on.  And all the while the background noise was getting annoyingly LOUDER.

 

Then, they all looked up...

 

An entirely new type of stealth bomber flew overhead exactly as the anthem reached its crescendo, perfectly timed.

 

THAT was the project they and all these companies had been working on.  This military never intended to unveil their project before them, but ABOVE them.  The stadium's walls just prevented them from seeing what it was as it approached.  It was no coincidence they were hearing a plane during the anthem, it was part of the show.

 

Most importantly, these engineers have done military contracts before, and also make aerospace components, etc.  None of them could recognise the model of that plane.  And the way the military protected that secret was to divide the components they needed among many vendors, most of whom were competitors with each other, so they wouldn't share their part of their project.  The military assembled it themselves, so no one vendor was any the wiser.

 

You ever hear that any given military force, whatever technology you think they got, they're about 10 years ahead of that?  I always wondered how they did that until I heard the above story.  It makes total sense now.

 

 

coincidence probably, but it would be cool if some fluff did appear about primaris research or testing, especially if say the mentors had no idea they where being used? Maybe they where told the research they conducted was for the high lords but in fact was Cawl playing them the whole time?

 

what repercussions would that have on the moentors when they find out they where used?

 

I am currently writing fluff to theme a primaris army based on multiple chapters being lead/ observed by mentors legion characters. The idea that guilliman is using them to test if the previous greysheild/unnumbered sons still remember how to fight together , or if over the last century their specific chapter rights and dogma have caused segregation ?

 

plus it gives me an excuse to paint a lot of different stuff, im thinking doom eagles, knights errant, rainbow warriors and mantis warriors.

 

 

Excellent idea.

 

To reply to "what if the Mentors ever find out they were used," I posit this: what if they ALREADY found out and it DID change them?

 

In 1st edition, where they were 1st detailed with their own special rules (in fact they were the 1st Chapter to get special rules with their targeting matrix and wotnot), they were called the Mentor Legion for a reason: they deliberately spread their members out to mentor/train/observe/analyse other Imperial forces for best practices sharing.  Then by 5th ed as you guys pointed out, that was retconned, and instead of being this Chapter that deliberately reached out to teach others, they became a secretive Chapter.

 

Thus, my suggestion is that the Mentors saw a glimpse of what Cawl/Guilliman were planning...but not the whole picture, and it made them so suspicious they went from being a sharing culture to a secretive one.

 

The Mentors were initially very eager to share information in the past, like in their 1st ed incarnation.  During that time, Cawl was already working on the Primaris project in secret, but he needed data.  Mentors were perfect pawns partners for this, so perhaps he sent requests through the Mechanicus for geneseed purity tests or samples...which is common enough.  Cawls structures the questions not like some lawyer laying them out in sequence for a jury to hear linking answers, but deliberately tries to break them up, so no one could connect the "dots" that are data points to see what line they're leading to (I've found really good marketing surveys do this, they intermix questions from different sources so you can never tell what companies are asking which question, so that you don't try to "game" your answers).

 

But someone in the Mentors found out.  Maybe it's some Dreadnought who noticed a mission required getting data to the Mechanicus that directly relates to another query from centuries ago, when he was still in the Scout Company.  Then he speaks with some Veteran Sergeant/Company Ancient about similar questions.  And another.  And another.  They are all data points to a line that pointed to a single question: what is the next evolution of the Space Marine, just as they themselves were the next evolution to the Thunder Warriors?  This Mentor Dreadnought adds his own question: who is this that wants to make us obsolete?  Then he calls in a favour with some Tech Magos he saved years ago on a battlefield, to check where these questions came from.  The Tech Magos is willing to help but also annoyed with this because it's centuries worth of transmissions, but it turns out after just checking a few of the queries, they all seem to lead to one person that he heard of before, this weirdo called Belisarius Cawl.

 

This Mentor Dreadnought does not know why, does not know about the Primaris project, all he knows is someone is planning for their obsolescence, not just the Mentors but ALL Space Marines.  It's almost like someone within the Imperium WANTS Space Marines to die out.  He reveals the pattern of questioning to the rest of the Chapter and convinces them that's exactly what's happening.  But as the saying goes, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.  The Mentors, know the what, but not the why, and in the Mentors' attempt to protect themselves and other Chapters by no longer sharing information, they actually lose the very knowledge-sharing culture they were known for and, at that exact moment, it's when they became secretive, like 5th ed and beyond.

 

Sorry for the long post.  To explain what I meant, I linked up a true story and basically a treatment for a Mentors novella, holy cow.

[Marshal Rohr]

N1SB, is right. Its called compartmentalization. Its how they developed the atomic bombs and everything secret squirrel every since. Think the Germans and Brits had their own version as well. As backwards as the Imperium is, compartmentalization is one of those low tech tradecraft things that doesn't require much effort beyond policy

[Trevak Dal]

I think the dark founding might have been a Cawl underling who felt it was necessary to crack the seal on the Primaris program, or he say, went with something similar in scope to corax's bid for replacement, and well stuff went bad.

 

With all the new stories (maybe old?) About the various legions having geneseed issues (Emps Kids, ksons, Wolfs, etc) until they found their primarchs, it is really curious as to why traitor legions haven't had a higher death rate (given their far crueler induction process with even less resources) nevermind the loyalists whose primarchs are dead or gone.

[Aramis K]

Always here for some Mentors speculation.

 

I've painted a small force of Mentors leading units of mixed geneseed marines; the unnumbered sons and greyshields lead by their mentors and assessors. Part of Cawls testing.

 

So yeah I think they're great candidates for having been working with Cawl. Their earliest rules are for high powered bolters, exactly like the bolt rifles. And in the latest artwork for Spear of the Emperor the Mentor has a backpack auspex, just like the Deathwatch.

 

It'd be interesting to know their geneseed. My headcanon is Dark Angels, but not one of the Unforgiven. Something closer to the original pre-Caliban 1st Legion Ravenwing.

 

@N1SB I like your take. Very GW to build a story around an inconsistence in the fluff.

[BrotherAtrox]

It's pretty common practice to try to keep different parts of a big project... compartmentalized, for lack of a better term. While it would definitely make for a good drama and fit within the AdMech's theme of secrecy, I prefer not to legitimize the sloppy retcons of the 5th Ed. Marine Codex. So I guess I'll throw my own spin on the idea.

 

Let's think about what we would need to test in the Primaris to back up the proof of concept:

-New organs/geneseed: This is the biggest part of the project. An enhanced geneseed using reworked material from the Primarchs paired with some techniques of creating Custodes is incredibly out of the norm for the setting and is going to be the biggest hurdle in secrecy. Sinew coils, the Magnificat, and the Furance are also pretty drastic but that geneseed change is the real point of interest.

 

-New armor: Tacticus, Gravis, and Phobos armors. From what I've read, these aren't revolutionary so much as they are competent iterations on ideas that already existed. Presumably they are using the same materials, maybe with different hardening techniques or layering or who knows what.

 

-New weapons: Bolt rifles and some new bolt pistols. Again, nothing revolutionary. There's already a lot of different flavors of bolt weaponry so this is probably the most mundane part of the project. Although the mag-shield on the Assault Bolter sounds kinda crazy.

 

The armor and the weapons, those are all things that, as N1SB's story points out, could've been evaluated elsewhere and passed off as modifications to existing technology. If you wanted to really go full tin-foil hat mode, you could start looking at pre-8th equipment and start connecting the dots. Mark VIII armor with its high gorget, Centurion armor, those Deathwatch heavy bolters with stabilizers, etc. People far more competent in the lore could probably go digging for days.

 

But the genetic part... I don't think Cawl could've afforded to keep the testers in the dark on that one. Compartmentalization works fine for equipment - you can do that in bits and pieces. But there's too many questions that need to be answered there and there's no way you could pass them off as something else. "Hey, this is Jim. He's like, way taller than you and his armor is different, his weapons are different, he's stronger and can fight off wounds better than you. But uh, don't ask any questions. Just... you know... hang out and let me know how he does." Even if you could compartmentalize and just install, say, the Furnace into some old marines (even though Calgar's new fluff makes it clear that converting an old marine is exceptionally dangerous) - there's not going to be any mystery there. The Apothecarium is gonna figure that out real fast.

 

I think it makes more sense to approach the Mentors (and maybe other chapters) with full disclosure of what's being done and trust them to keep quiet about it. When you consider how big the Imperium is and how long the project had been going, I think using them with discretion could get you the feedback you need without raising enough eyebrows to get someone high up in the Administratum/Mechanicum/Inquisition to come knocking on your door.

[FlamingDeth]

Holy cow N1SB, if the do something like that in the fluff that would instantly make the Primaris fluff less cringeworthy. I'd still prefer for it to be at least based on the Emperor's incomplete works for the biology but that would help immensely.

[Trevak Dal]

So I'm reminded of Fall of Reach, where it goes into the backstory of the Master Chief and the Spartan 2s and the encounter in the gym after his augmentation.

 

Some ODSTs are suddenly giving him :cuss over being in the gym, it's for Marines, not kids (he had the physique of a gymnast before augmentation, he was as large as they were or bigger).

 

They go to fight in a ring, and the Chief caves in one's sternum with a punch and iirc kills the other two as an officer looked on.

 

It was arranged to see how far the Spartan 2 program had surpassed the failed Orion Program.

[Closet Skeleton]

Holy cow N1SB, if the do something like that in the fluff that would instantly make the Primaris fluff less cringeworthy. I'd still prefer for it to be at least based on the Emperor's incomplete works for the biology but that would help immensely.

 

Who are Larraman, Betcher and Lyman and what's up with their organs?

 

Personally I find the idea that the Emperor did most of the work on Marines himself to be far stupider than the haphazard introduction of Primaris. The older fluff was pretty clear that the Emperor was in a supervisory role at best. A far more natural interpretation of the setting is that any detail that implies the Emperor was some kind of solely important all powerful genius are more propaganda than anything actually explanatory.

 

Only one of the Primaris implants has Cawl's name on it. That should hint at something.

[RolandTHTG]

It's pretty common practice to try to keep different parts of a big project... compartmentalized, for lack of a better term. While it would definitely make for a good drama and fit within the AdMech's theme of secrecy, I prefer not to legitimize the sloppy retcons of the 5th Ed. Marine Codex. So I guess I'll throw my own spin on the idea.

 

Let's think about what we would need to test in the Primaris to back up the proof of concept:

-New organs/geneseed: This is the biggest part of the project. An enhanced geneseed using reworked material from the Primarchs paired with some techniques of creating Custodes is incredibly out of the norm for the setting and is going to be the biggest hurdle in secrecy. Sinew coils, the Magnificat, and the Furance are also pretty drastic but that geneseed change is the real point of interest.

 

[snip]

 

But the genetic part... I don't think Cawl could've afforded to keep the testers in the dark on that one. Compartmentalization works fine for equipment - you can do that in bits and pieces. But there's too many questions that need to be answered there and there's no way you could pass them off as something else. "Hey, this is Jim. He's like, way taller than you and his armor is different, his weapons are different, he's stronger and can fight off wounds better than you. But uh, don't ask any questions. Just... you know... hang out and let me know how he does." Even if you could compartmentalize and just install, say, the Furnace into some old marines (even though Calgar's new fluff makes it clear that converting an old marine is exceptionally dangerous) - there's not going to be any mystery there. The Apothecarium is gonna figure that out real fast.

 

I think it makes more sense to approach the Mentors (and maybe other chapters) with full disclosure of what's being done and trust them to keep quiet about it. When you consider how big the Imperium is and how long the project had been going, I think using them with discretion could get you the feedback you need without raising enough eyebrows to get someone high up in the Administratum/Mechanicum/Inquisition to come knocking on your door.

The 13th (they've 'lost' the stored samples of the Geneseed) and 21st Foundings (especially the many genetic experiments in the 21st Founding) definitely can be "explained" as Cawl's experiments in updating the geneseed. Especially if he was hiding things in among other projects, and managed to slip a bunch of prototypes in among the other magos's experiments for the 21st. 

[vanimal]

I like how this has gone , didn't think it would get this much speculation.

 

What if the mentors where created to test. As in cawl made the founding as a test,these are actual primaris marines , they where selected in the heresy and woken from stasis. But not with the new organs.they new who they where and what they would one day become, but uses as test dummies and or training of future primaris until their full disclosure.?

 

So regularly swapping out units for experience and research and then back into stasis until the final upgrade? No one would now outside the chapter as the always seemed at full strength, and different faces happen in a chapter bevy of casualties anyway so no surprise.

 

Except the commanders who stay outside stasis forever holding the secret , keeping it all together, keeping a regular face to the imperium to keep its secret?

 

Any legs on this?

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

Holy cow N1SB, if the do something like that in the fluff that would instantly make the Primaris fluff less cringeworthy. I'd still prefer for it to be at least based on the Emperor's incomplete works for the biology but that would help immensely.

 

Who are Larraman, Betcher and Lyman and what's up with their organs?

 

Personally I find the idea that the Emperor did most of the work on Marines himself to be far stupider than the haphazard introduction of Primaris. The older fluff was pretty clear that the Emperor was in a supervisory role at best. A far more natural interpretation of the setting is that any detail that implies the Emperor was some kind of solely important all powerful genius are more propaganda than anything actually explanatory.

 

Only one of the Primaris implants has Cawl's name on it. That should hint at something.

 

 

My version of the theory isn't so much that the Emperor did all the work on the Marines himself, but that we know that the original Marines were an attempt to salvage the loss of the Primarch Project. The Emperor knew they didn't have time to make new Primarchs, but he could use their genetic template to try to augment baseline humans into something somewhat resembling them. As such, he had an entire Primarchs worth of biology to work off, but also had a deadline. By the time "release date" came, he'd only perfected the 19 that we know and love, but who knows how many potential organs got left in pre-testing because they couldn't work out the final kinks in time?

We know Cawl didn't help with it himself, he seems to have stolen the knowledge at some point. My version of the theory is that what he was able to do was to find some of these leftover blueprints for other organs, the ones that hadn't been ready in time, and was able to devote the time to getting them working properly.

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Holy cow N1SB, if the do something like that in the fluff that would instantly make the Primaris fluff less cringeworthy. I'd still prefer for it to be at least based on the Emperor's incomplete works for the biology but that would help immensely.

Who are Larraman, Betcher and Lyman and what's up with their organs?

 

Personally I find the idea that the Emperor did most of the work on Marines himself to be far stupider than the haphazard introduction of Primaris. The older fluff was pretty clear that the Emperor was in a supervisory role at best. A far more natural interpretation of the setting is that any detail that implies the Emperor was some kind of solely important all powerful genius are more propaganda than anything actually explanatory.

 

Only one of the Primaris implants has Cawl's name on it. That should hint at something.

My version of the theory isn't so much that the Emperor did all the work on the Marines himself, but that we know that the original Marines were an attempt to salvage the loss of the Primarch Project. The Emperor knew they didn't have time to make new Primarchs, but he could use their genetic template to try to augment baseline humans into something somewhat resembling them. As such, he had an entire Primarchs worth of biology to work off, but also had a deadline. By the time "release date" came, he'd only perfected the 19 that we know and love, but who knows how many potential organs got left in pre-testing because they couldn't work out the final kinks in time?

We know Cawl didn't help with it himself, he seems to have stolen the knowledge at some point. My version of the theory is that what he was able to do was to find some of these leftover blueprints for other organs, the ones that hadn't been ready in time, and was able to devote the time to getting them working properly.

You make a good point about leftover organs, Lord_Caerolion, especially given that the Primaris have half of the Immortis gland, which the primarchs had. Maybe the immortis’s datafile was damaged at some point (we know Cawl can’t make the other half) and Cawl was only able to re-engineer the one half? Who knows how many other organs he wasn’t able to fix?

[Thorakitai]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Holy cow N1SB, if the do something like that in the fluff that would instantly make the Primaris fluff less cringeworthy. I'd still prefer for it to be at least based on the Emperor's incomplete works for the biology but that would help immensely.

Who are Larraman, Betcher and Lyman and what's up with their organs?

 

Personally I find the idea that the Emperor did most of the work on Marines himself to be far stupider than the haphazard introduction of Primaris. The older fluff was pretty clear that the Emperor was in a supervisory role at best. A far more natural interpretation of the setting is that any detail that implies the Emperor was some kind of solely important all powerful genius are more propaganda than anything actually explanatory.

 

Only one of the Primaris implants has Cawl's name on it. That should hint at something.

My version of the theory isn't so much that the Emperor did all the work on the Marines himself, but that we know that the original Marines were an attempt to salvage the loss of the Primarch Project. The Emperor knew they didn't have time to make new Primarchs, but he could use their genetic template to try to augment baseline humans into something somewhat resembling them. As such, he had an entire Primarchs worth of biology to work off, but also had a deadline. By the time "release date" came, he'd only perfected the 19 that we know and love, but who knows how many potential organs got left in pre-testing because they couldn't work out the final kinks in time?

We know Cawl didn't help with it himself, he seems to have stolen the knowledge at some point. My version of the theory is that what he was able to do was to find some of these leftover blueprints for other organs, the ones that hadn't been ready in time, and was able to devote the time to getting them working properly.

The AdMech codex explicitly states that Cawl assisted the Emperor in the development of the black carapace. He would likely know all sorts of other things about other parts of the project, and have something of an idea of the Emperor's intentions with it.

[Cryptix]

I always thought it was implied that the alpha legion took the other half of the Immortis' genetic blueprint when they sabotaged Corvus's raptors.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Holy cow N1SB, if the do something like that in the fluff that would instantly make the Primaris fluff less cringeworthy. I'd still prefer for it to be at least based on the Emperor's incomplete works for the biology but that would help immensely.

Who are Larraman, Betcher and Lyman and what's up with their organs?

 

Personally I find the idea that the Emperor did most of the work on Marines himself to be far stupider than the haphazard introduction of Primaris. The older fluff was pretty clear that the Emperor was in a supervisory role at best. A far more natural interpretation of the setting is that any detail that implies the Emperor was some kind of solely important all powerful genius are more propaganda than anything actually explanatory.

 

Only one of the Primaris implants has Cawl's name on it. That should hint at something.

My version of the theory isn't so much that the Emperor did all the work on the Marines himself, but that we know that the original Marines were an attempt to salvage the loss of the Primarch Project. The Emperor knew they didn't have time to make new Primarchs, but he could use their genetic template to try to augment baseline humans into something somewhat resembling them. As such, he had an entire Primarchs worth of biology to work off, but also had a deadline. By the time "release date" came, he'd only perfected the 19 that we know and love, but who knows how many potential organs got left in pre-testing because they couldn't work out the final kinks in time?

We know Cawl didn't help with it himself, he seems to have stolen the knowledge at some point. My version of the theory is that what he was able to do was to find some of these leftover blueprints for other organs, the ones that hadn't been ready in time, and was able to devote the time to getting them working properly.

The AdMech codex explicitly states that Cawl assisted the Emperor in the development of the black carapace. He would likely know all sorts of other things about other parts of the project, and have something of an idea of the Emperor's intentions with it.

 

 

Yeah, but in Wolfsbane, Cawl is just a lowly Acolyte that apparently been to Terra or Mars. It looks like he's stolen the knowledge of someone who did, and in his fractured mental state, believes it was him.

[Arkangilos]

It's pretty common practice to try to keep different parts of a big project... compartmentalized, for lack of a better term. While it would definitely make for a good drama and fit within the AdMech's theme of secrecy, I prefer not to legitimize the sloppy retcons of the 5th Ed. Marine Codex. So I guess I'll throw my own spin on the idea.

 

Let's think about what we would need to test in the Primaris to back up the proof of concept:

-New organs/geneseed: This is the biggest part of the project. An enhanced geneseed using reworked material from the Primarchs paired with some techniques of creating Custodes is incredibly out of the norm for the setting and is going to be the biggest hurdle in secrecy. Sinew coils, the Magnificat, and the Furance are also pretty drastic but that geneseed change is the real point of interest.

 

-New armor: Tacticus, Gravis, and Phobos armors. From what I've read, these aren't revolutionary so much as they are competent iterations on ideas that already existed. Presumably they are using the same materials, maybe with different hardening techniques or layering or who knows what.

 

-New weapons: Bolt rifles and some new bolt pistols. Again, nothing revolutionary. There's already a lot of different flavors of bolt weaponry so this is probably the most mundane part of the project. Although the mag-shield on the Assault Bolter sounds kinda crazy.

 

The armor and the weapons, those are all things that, as N1SB's story points out, could've been evaluated elsewhere and passed off as modifications to existing technology. If you wanted to really go full tin-foil hat mode, you could start looking at pre-8th equipment and start connecting the dots. Mark VIII armor with its high gorget, Centurion armor, those Deathwatch heavy bolters with stabilizers, etc. People far more competent in the lore could probably go digging for days.

 

But the genetic part... I don't think Cawl could've afforded to keep the testers in the dark on that one. Compartmentalization works fine for equipment - you can do that in bits and pieces. But there's too many questions that need to be answered there and there's no way you could pass them off as something else. "Hey, this is Jim. He's like, way taller than you and his armor is different, his weapons are different, he's stronger and can fight off wounds better than you. But uh, don't ask any questions. Just... you know... hang out and let me know how he does." Even if you could compartmentalize and just install, say, the Furnace into some old marines (even though Calgar's new fluff makes it clear that converting an old marine is exceptionally dangerous) - there's not going to be any mystery there. The Apothecarium is gonna figure that out real fast.

 

I think it makes more sense to approach the Mentors (and maybe other chapters) with full disclosure of what's being done and trust them to keep quiet about it. When you consider how big the Imperium is and how long the project had been going, I think using them with discretion could get you the feedback you need without raising enough eyebrows to get someone high up in the Administratum/Mechanicum/Inquisition to come knocking on your door.

They don't have to test them next to other chapters. They can have entire units tested under the Admechs supervisions without other astartes being near them (and that would be better so they could directly monitor and crunch the numbers).

 

Normal humans wouldn't know the difference. They rarely see space marines, and when they do it's usually at times where they are going to be paying attention to if they are a little bigger, and for all they know the armor is another chapters variation of it.

[Irbis]

But the genetic part... I don't think Cawl could've afforded to keep the testers in the dark on that one. Compartmentalization works fine for equipment - you can do that in bits and pieces. But there's too many questions that need to be answered there and there's no way you could pass them off as something else. "Hey, this is Jim. He's like, way taller than you and his armor is different, his weapons are different, he's stronger and can fight off wounds better than you. But uh, don't ask any questions. Just... you know... hang out and let me know how he does." Even if you could compartmentalize and just install, say, the Furnace into some old marines (even though Calgar's new fluff makes it clear that converting an old marine is exceptionally dangerous) - there's not going to be any mystery there. The Apothecarium is gonna figure that out real fast.

 

Wasn't there an old story about secret outpost trying to make some sort of supermen (admittedly a bit grimdumb one)? This and the Lost/Dark Founding could have been such compartments in the bigger project, trying to test some upgrades on their own. Or maybe even all foundings were, who would notice 1 or 2 extra chapters?

 

As for apothecaries, who says they will notice? What if one extra chapter has apothecary training edited to slip in data of extra organ making it look like it was always there? The apothecaries don't exactly go to data sharing conferences, do they? Also, no one tends to do autopsy surgery of dead SM, they just extract the seed and wargear, then chuck the body into the tomb. You'd need really extraordinary coincidence to find apothecary from 'wrong' chapter poking deeply enough into 'unknown' marine to notice something wrong...