Transitioning from up old models to new models

[Kasper_Hawser]

Hi all, this question is really aimed at really old players who are still current players, if any of you are. I understand the game has been around since 1987, though I'm not sure exactly when the Space Wolves were "born".

 

Following news of the "Primarisification" of Calgar, I have recently been experiencing severe bouts of melancholiness as I look at my 100+ Power Armoured marines, terminators, jump packers and even Rhinos and Razorbacks. Basically the question that is making me very sad, is how much longer before they are completely supplanted by Primaris, if not in rules, than in models? Will there be a time when my Grey Hunters will finally become Primaris Grey Hunters? Same for my Long Fangs, Blood Claws and my old guard of characters?

 

Back when Primaris first came out, no doubt we were all worried that GW was going to render all our old range obsolete and non legal. But i breathed easy for more than a year as GW continued to fumble with making Primaris good, or coming up with a decent way of mixing old marines and new marines together, which for the most part didn't work. From my experience, the most sucessful use of Primaris is either pure Primaris or go home. Almost all my attempts to mix and match have ended in.... well, if not disasters, then at best a tactical defeat. Point is, up until Calgar got upgraded, I was resting in the illussion that our old marines would be here to stay, at least until GW finally figures out how to make decent rules for Primaris.

 

But now for the first time since 8th Ed, I feel the bell tolling for our old venerable models. For those of you familiar with me, my first love is my power armoured marines even as they struggled and were decimated from 5-7th ed, and then later in 8th Ed as well.  Even as 8th Ed dragged on and the Wolf Codex came out nearly last with a little lacklustre results, I was still building Power armoured models.

 

OK enough context. What I would like to know is that when the product range changed drastically, like when the range changed from metal to finecast/plastic, how did you guys handle it without either breaking your heart? Or your wallet for that matter? Financially wise, if the day comes out that ALL SM models are now Primaris, I don't think E-bay is going to work to sell your army which is suddenly obsolete. And in any case, i still love my power armoured models. Morbidly speaking, I probably want to be buried/cremated with them.

 

Sigh, pathethic as this sounds, can someone teach me how to cope with this now seemingly greater likelihood that your entire army is now obsolete?

[Bryan Blaire]

Mourn, then find peace.

 

Seriously, yes, that's what will have to happen. Or don't move on and find a way to play with what you already have, possibly not even moving to a new Edition. I still have and every so often use 2nd Edition Deathwing Terminators (actually have probably 10-12 to still paint) when I need to. They will eventually get raised up bases to get them to height, but I really don't think about the size differences. They are just my minis, and I still love having them around.

 

I've also not seen GW render a stock kit they sold "non-legal." You will not find in the rule book a rule that states "If your model was not produced after X year, that model can no longer be used in our game." Some kits they haven't sold in a while have been relegated to Index units, yes, but those are still available for play in the current Edition (and hopefully will be placed in a new Codex if GW gets its cranial-rectal inversion solved).

 

Just don't despair and give up. You put the work into those models, find a way to keep them around and enjoy gaming with (or just gazing at) them.

[HvitrValdyr]

I started with Wolves in the mid 90s with our 2nd edition codex and metal marines. Still have them. I’ve owned everything that has been produced for 40k Wolves and lots of the 30k Wolves stuff ever since. The transition from metal to plastic was great as it really made conversions and kit bashes much easier, even if the plastic guys were a little bigger. I still ran my metal guys alongside them. When Primaris were released I was excited by the True Scale possibilities and decided to start a new project. Luckily I have all the Wolf bits I could ever want to ease those conversions, made possible by all those prior years of collecting. I’ll admit I’m currently selling a bunch of my plastic power armour but I made that decision for reasons unrelated to a possible all Primaris future and I’ll always keep my old metal Wolves since they were my first. Maybe I’ll use them for Kill Team or some other game system. Maybe I’ll play 2nd edition with my kids. Or 3rd. Or 4th. And so on. What I do with them is limited only by me. Like Bryan Blaire said, if everything goes Primaris scale eventually it doesn’t mean you can’t use your older models. Just play them using whatever Marine rules there are at the time. Or play an older system that you still have rules for. Or find another solution that works for you.

[sbarnby71]

I bought my first SM back in 1988, the horrible yellow plastic ones, closely followed by the metal bodied guys and I did paint them up as Ultramarines (I was young, what can I say).  I can't remember when I started with my wolves, but remember seeing a Grey coloured Terminator in a how to paint book that came with a GW paint set and from then on, I was a Wolves collector. 

 

Over the years I've bought every type of SM (I have hundreds of them, some built and painted and hundreds more still waiting) and just recently Primaris, I like the Primaris models, yeah there is lack of options, but I think back to the first yellow plastic SM and again not many options, but over time that changed, it will be the same with the Primaris.

 

Now I don't play 40k, I just collect and paint, but if I did, I would still field older models because I've put a lot of time and effort into building and painting them, ok in the future you may have to use the "counts as" rule, but I'd say most players have done that at some point and it will never stop.

 

I say don't give up on any of your models, you took the time and effort to build and paint them, so don't let GW or any other player tell you that your metal Terminator (that is smaller than a SM in scout armour these days!) is not good enough to fight for Russ and the All-Father, he darn well is.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Well for what it's worth gw again reiterated that they are not phasing out regular marines. So some comfort mat be found there for the near future. See this BOLS article from the weekender event http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/11/40k-new-genestealer-cults-primaris-cityfight-details.html

 

Also, the only advantage you really gain with the old models is the smaller base. Do worse case upsized bases is likely all you would need to keep playing your old marines and that's a minor swap all things considered

[Cpt.Danjou]

Some of the first minis I ever bought for 40k was squats and zoats, never played with them as I had to few. These are some of the few minis that are now completely unplayable, in the definition of their own armies. My secondary army during the 3rd edition was a pure Emp. Children CSM, if would try to field that army some converted minis would not be strictly "legal", sonic weaponry bikes for example. So I have seen some of my units become unplayable, but squats and Zoats have their own story behind them, and my csm bikes are converted and not sold in a box.

I have never heard about any model become dumped otherwise in the game. The classic Space wolf minis, I think, will always be playable, just like the metal terminators on small bases still are. Once ina blue moon, I take out my emp. children, and play with them even though it is completely unplayable with the current rules or the units I have. I think we go through the same problem with every edition and codex. I used to field loads of Wolf guard earlier, now I am going with blood claws, which I never used before, and jump-packing characters. So I had to get some jump-packs, and more space wolf pack boxes. My poor wolf guard are collecting dust, as does many other minis I own
I have just come to terms with that GW wants to earn money so they release new and shiny toys and change around with the rules so we old people need to buy more stuff. But if we are going into a pure primaris space wolf force, I will just keep on fielding my classics, as what ever the new units  will be called.

[NightHowler]

I don't own any primaris.  I don't plan on ever owning any primaris.  I play spacewolves because of the story and because of the fun I've had customizing and painting the models I currently own.  Primaris are just too sterile for my taste.  Even more bland than vanilla marines.  I have models I love and I don't want to see those models invalidated by new models with better rules.

 

But GW sells models.  It seems like they feel that they need to invalidate my models so that I will buy the new models they plan on making.  So it seems like their current business model is at odds to my current hobbying model.  

 

At the moment, I don't feel like I need primaris to play with my spacewolves, but if there ever comes a time when primaris rules make legacy marine rules obsolete, I fully plan on using the models I have (maybe after moving them onto bigger bases) and using the better rules.  Will I find that situation as satisfying as the current one where I can still play with my spacewolves with the appropriate rules?  No.  Will I do it so that I don't have to buy models that I don't like just to play a game that I love?  Yes.

 

I guess what I'm saying is don't be melancholy.  Enjoy the moment.  Forge your own narrative.  Play with friends who think like you and hobby the way you want to.  Don't let the suits at GW steal your fun.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

It'd probably be easier if there were at least a bone thrown toward existing players in the form of actual new models rather than what happened with the recent codex - existing generic Space Marines units and models being rubberstamped for Space Wolves armies while the boring new Primaris are just tossed in without any real attempt to integrate them in a true Wolfy sense ("Logan likes them and that's the end of the discussion"). And that was after a wait of over a year. Compare the Bike Scouts that Space Wolves finally got to those brand-new Genestealer Cult bike models. It just makes you shake your head thinking about what could have been...

 

Even when the Space Wolves got the honor of being presented as the first Space Marines in Kill Team, they were just generic Primaris Reivers. Then the commander comes along and there's not even an attempt to make that Primaris Librarian sculpt look anything like a Rune Priest. They may as well have just let the Ultramarines be the Kill Team Astartes representatives.

 

It's just a weird Purgatory right now where the classic-sized Wolves aren't getting anything new and the new Primaris models aren't getting anything Wolfy (one Lieutenant upgrade sprue aside).

[Ranulf]

My first marines were a handful of the lead guys (barehead and beakies) just prior to 2nd edition - proportionally horrible but lots of poses.

 

Then came mono-pose 2nd Ed. plastics followed by the lead (and eventually white-metal) Space Wolves boxed sets. (BC, GH, LF and WG in PA and TDA) I loved this period, all of the minis seemed to have so much character - the Blood Claw Sergeant is still on of my favourite minis of all time and formed the basis of my first Wolf Lord conversion. 

 

Then came the 3rd Ed multi-pose plastics - and I hated them because they were bland by comparison to the previous range. (the original release didn't have half the stuff the space wolf upgrade sprues have now) In time however, I started converting and came to like the modular nature of the kit. At the end of the 3rd edition I sold every plastic mini I owned and a lot of the metal ones as well and left the hobby.

 

I missed 4th through 7th edition and returned to 8th to find everything had changed.

 

For the first year I loathed the Primaris idea and thought my fondly-remembered 40K universe had been wrecked. Upon reflection, 40K has always been in a state of change, even during the 'stable' days of 2nd ed, new codexes were being introduced. I remember the gnashing of teeth in 3rd when Necrons were shoehorned into the setting and then the screams of rage when the anime-esque Tau turned up, yet 40K persists. I've come to accept the nature of change in the setting and have started collecting these new marines.

 

The Primaris range will be expanded, they will replace the marine range that came before them and a decade from now you'll probably to replying to a post that bemoans the conversion of plastic miniatures to holograms.

 

If you love your current collection, hang on to them. While I still have several hundred (IG) metal minis from 2nd ed, I wish I'd kept them all. Nostalgia can be a nice thing for a collector, even if you're not gaming with the miniatures anymore.

 

Alternatively, sell it all now in an orgy of pain and loss and then be reborn into the new 40K order.

 

-Ran

[Kasper_Hawser]

Thanks all for your encouragement, especially those who have genuine models which are no longer legal but still proud of them and standing strong today as gamers. I admit I was a little emotional when I wrote this, so I appreciate you all taking the time to post. As per your advice Ranulf, I'll hold on to them no matter what happens for in 40K, my Grey Hunters were my first love, no amount of Primaris can replace them until we get a proper and DECENT Space wolf primaris novel like the War of Secrets by Phil Kelly for Dark Angels, to endear the new Wolves into the fandom and fluff.

[killersquid]

I am not convinced they will get rid of non mkx marines.

 

I'm currently building a space Wolves army with heresy-era equipment and armour, and I'm having a blast.

[Karhedron]

I am still using my original power-armoured Njal. This model is about 25 years old (probably older than some posters on here ) but is still legal and pretty competitive. I am hoping that mini-Marines will not be going anywhere in the near future.

[Kalamadea]

I've been playing 40K since '98 and I'm actually in the opposite boat, the lack of replacement Primaris options has left me dejected and disinterested in my SW to the point that I completely shelved them and built an all-primaris Ultramarine army last February. I'd thought about rebuilding my SW using Primaris models to "true scale" them, but that just really wouldn't work as I have too many bikers and TWC and there's just no Primaris analog. I'm only now getting back into the Wolves and changing their wargear loadouts over to 8th ed, but it's really hard to be excited by the regular power armor marines when the Primaris are just so much better rmodels in practically every way: better size befitting Marines, better proportions, easier to paint. I can't wait for Primaris Grey Hunters and Primaris Blood Claws and Primaris bikers

 

That said, let's be completely realistic: the old marines aren't going away any time soon, even with another edition change or 2. Too many people would be up in arms, sure, but more importantly than that is GW has invested heavily into an extensive line of plastics that still sell strong, and they're going to keep those kits available for as long as they still sell. We won't see many real new kits going forward, but the existing kits will be around for many years to come, even if they go direct-only over time. They'll probably still have rules for editions to come, even if it's just the Index Imperium style lists that aren't competitive and sales will flag and they'll get ever more replaced by Primaris. It'll happen completely at some point, that's almost a given, but it will be many many years down the line. I'd be REALLY ecstatic if it happened sooner, but it just doesn't make sense for GW to stop producing regular marines until the Primaris sales finally make them redundant. 

[Oshikai]

To be honest right now I a not worried much, still happily painting Minimarines. I have nothing against primaris.  And to be honest I subjectively went through worse. I am/was primarily a Warhammer Fantasy Player...I don`t think I have to tell you how much it hurt when they practically blew up the World and Game I loved for 20 Years. Still struggling with it.  Nothing happening right now can compare to that for me personally.

 

Edit: Not trying to belittle your feelings, believe me I can imagine it and I was surprsied how hard it hit me emotionally when teh End Times came, it actually affected my reallife. But so far our beloved Old School Marine are still here and we still have the Game. Enjoy it mate!

[Kasper_Hawser]

I've been playing 40K since '98 and I'm actually in the opposite boat, the lack of replacement Primaris options has left me dejected and disinterested in my SW to the point that I completely shelved them and built an all-primaris Ultramarine army last February. I'd thought about rebuilding my SW using Primaris models to "true scale" them, but that just really wouldn't work as I have too many bikers and TWC and there's just no Primaris analog. I'm only now getting back into the Wolves and changing their wargear loadouts over to 8th ed, but it's really hard to be excited by the regular power armor marines when the Primaris are just so much better rmodels in practically every way: better size befitting Marines, better proportions, easier to paint. I can't wait for Primaris Grey Hunters and Primaris Blood Claws and Primaris bikers

 

That said, let's be completely realistic: the old marines aren't going away any time soon, even with another edition change or 2. Too many people would be up in arms, sure, but more importantly than that is GW has invested heavily into an extensive line of plastics that still sell strong, and they're going to keep those kits available for as long as they still sell. We won't see many real new kits going forward, but the existing kits will be around for many years to come, even if they go direct-only over time. They'll probably still have rules for editions to come, even if it's just the Index Imperium style lists that aren't competitive and sales will flag and they'll get ever more replaced by Primaris. It'll happen completely at some point, that's almost a given, but it will be many many years down the line. I'd be REALLY ecstatic if it happened sooner, but it just doesn't make sense for GW to stop producing regular marines until the Primaris sales finally make them redundant. 

 

Thanks for pulling out of the depths of gloom and doom and back into the ground (reality). For my part, I too can't wait for Space Wolves Primaris to go native and become Grey Hunters, Blood Claws, Skyclaws and Long Fangs in all but name.

[noigrim]

I haven't bought a marine since custodes came out, the true elite!

Marine armour now looks plain and unassuming to me. Eyeing some GK tho

Marines have sucked in the game since 5th anyway.

personally I was more affected by the stagnation of 30k in 7th, I had to sell all my 30k models and I won't buy any titanicus stuff due to butthurt.

[rgr_maddog]

I have been playing on and off (with some pretty huge stints on both sides) since I was a kid. My first marines were included in the book, little cut out cards on plastic stands! I thought about stopping at some edition I like and letting the world roll on without me, but as long as keep coming out with new models I want to convert into Space Wolves, I'll hang around!

[Bulwyf]

I started playing Warhammer Fantasy Battles in the mid 1980's. I picked up Slaves to Darkness and then Rogue Trader and was like wow this 40k stuff sounds awesome. I've played since then with an admitted long break from 5th until 7th edition for 40k. I played Fantasy Battles up until they idiotically killed the world and made my armies pointless.

 

If the day comes when you can't play regular space marines and must play Primaris then my Space Wolf army that I've had since you could start collecting Space Wolves back in the 90's will be retired for good. I absolutely refuse to use those units in my army.

 

I hope that day will never come.

[WolvesinSpace]

I’m of a different mindset than most of you guys seem to be, I like Primaris. I think eventually things will transition into that scale permanently. The models are good and as the line evolves we will get more options and more customization. I don’t want to build mini marines anymore. It’s personal preference though so I understand why other folks feel differently. The best thing we can do is embrace the parts of the hobby we enjoy to give us a break from the real world. Cheers!

[Bat33.1]

I've also not seen GW render a stock kit they sold "non-legal." You will not find in the rule book a rule that states "If your model was not produced after X year, that model can no longer be used in our game." Some kits they haven't sold in a while have been relegated to Index units, yes, but those are still available for play in the current Edition (and hopefully will be placed in a new Codex if GW gets its cranial-rectal inversion solved).

 

Just don't despair and give up. You put the work into those models, find a way to keep them around and enjoy gaming with (or just gazing at) them.

 

The only thing I would say about GW making old models 'non-legal' is look at Age of Sigmar where they have made many older models not legal for match play rules. They still have rules for fun games but are already pushed out of points play as they no longer have points in the Generals Handbook.

 

Calgar has me believing GW will eventually transition all the finecast SM into Primaris eventually and there are new Primaris units coming soon in a 2nd wave release. So long term I think GW will push the older models away but how long is it since we were told metal/finecast were on the way out? Abaddon is 27 years old and only now are we hearing about a replacement model in plastic. Nothing stays still forever if you want to keep 40k relevant to the next generation of gamers and collectors.

 

The Rout and Kasper_Hawser have nothing to fear but fear itself this will take GW many years to complete

[Kinstryfe]

I often imagine a scenario. The year is 2047. Most of the world is a nuclear wasteland, and gangs of mutants hunt and devour the few remaining normal humans for sport. Finally after a year long arduous journey a lone figure clad in scraps of fabric approaches the burnt out husk of GW HQ. Suddenly they let out a piercing shreik: "I told you they were going to stop making old Marines!!!"

 

Seriously though, the bad part of the classic Marine line is that it is for all real purposes complete, and anything else added would be purely for variety or opportunistic to replace old dying molds. You can't really find a correlation between very few new old marines coming out in the past two years any more than you can use the same to prove that craftworld eldar are being discontinued. Marines are as a whole GW's best sellers, and any business would be insane to discontinue product while it's still their lead money maker as long as they have a say in it. So basically, enjoy your army and do with it what you like. If the rules or models do change someday, well, there's nothing you can do about it then, but it's not then yet.

 

I like to look at it another way, based on an industry I used to work in. Look at cell phones. I have literally sold thousand dollar phones to people who know full well that they're going to want another thousand dollar phone in twelve months. There's a built in expectation of the life of the product. Even people who only buy a new phone when they absolutely have to will usually admit that getting more than 4 or so years out of a smartphone is rare. So, you need to decide what is a valid shelf life for your hobby investment. I don't think it's reasonable to say that you expect Models to be completely usable with no changes in twenty-five years. Ten years? Maybe, for the effort in painting them. 5 years? That's akin to electronics, I'd say that's a fair expectation.

 

Basically, the tl:dr of it all: decide how long of a shelf life you expect your models to have, then plan on enjoying them for that long. Anything more is pure bonus.