Is Codex:SM bloated?

[autek mor]

 

variety is the spice of life. take the horus heresy books for example, look how many non chapter specific units are available to choose from? the more viable units we can field then the more varied lists we can bring as well as the tactics we can employ. i personally still blame units being overcosted for the most part. anything in the book can have value to the player if its cheap enough. instead we have a book where we look at the fast attack section and go straight to INCEPTORS

 

The problem is that there isn't variety here. There's duplication with slight changes. Company Veterans and Honour Guard existing together alongside Sternguard and Vanguard isn't variety, it's bloat. Basic Dreadnoughts don't need to exist in a world where we have Venerables, Ironclads, Contemptors, and Redemptors. That doesn't give you variety - it gives you one more useless data sheet. 

 

 

true, so then its only bloated because of bad rules and point costs? there is an easy fix, we can only hope that GW pull the trigger in chapter approved. i don't pay as much interest into GWs finances as before so i won't say what they should or should not do but you would think it would be more profitable to make more units viable than leaving them useless on the tabletop? if not then perhaps the aim all along is to phase out some units if it benefits them to reduce the range? pure speculation on my part of course.

[GreyCrow]

Absolutely Cadman

 

That’s why GW is going for the Primaris. The Marines have covered most of the warfare styles.

They need a fresh reboot for people looking for money to spend without making it seem they have to burn their minis. :D

[autek mor]

Absolutely Cadman

 

That’s why GW is going for the Primaris. The Marines have covered most of the warfare styles.

They need a fresh reboot for people looking for money to spend without making it seem they have to burn their minis.

 

the key words, "making it seem...."

[GreyCrow]

To be fair, I’ve recently played full OldMarines lists, and I was amazed by the punch that they still have on the table.

 

The true difference is : Marines are harder to build as an army vs Primarines. Primaris require less analysis on economical dynamics versus Marines.

 

It’s a ‘plug and play’ army, that is slightly more forgiving and more resilience at the expense of slightly less punch.

 

GW knows full well that fluff sells though, so they are going to keep inflating the product presentation of new Primarines and make it seem like you need to build a full Primaris Force, just so that they can push minis.

 

Primarines do have a value though, for Marine players tired of playing and painting the same stuff over and over again.

[spessmarine]

I have to wonder if part of the issue of "feeling bloated" comes from the idea that the Space Marine line is essentially complete? It looks like one could build an army virtually any way they liked, in line with how they describe Space Marines in warfare (how well it'll do on the tabletop is another matter entirely).

I dunno, they've been adding stuff very redundant but they could totally do more stuff if they weren't locked to how things are.

For example, stuff like Moritats and Destroyers would be neat and novel, but GW can't really fit it to the Codex and so we get redundancies instead.

[MARK0SIAN]

Personally I wouldn’t like to see a wholesale transplant of all the Heresy units. I like that there’s different units in each game, I think the Heresy should have some unique stuff that isn’t in 40k, just as there’s plenty of stuff in 40k that’s not in the Heresy.

 

It helps keep the two games distinct and actually succeeds in giving Marines a different identity/playstyle in the Heresy game. I’d hate to see them become essentially the same armies just using a different ruleset.

 

Focus on reducing the bloat by giving good rules to each unit so it has a specific role in the battle rather than making everything very similar so only the best version ever gets taken. It’d be quite simple to make it so that standard assault marines were great at clearing out large, T3 chaff units whilst vanguard were meant for harder targets but at the moment, you’d probably just use vanguard for both (if you were going to use that as your anti-horde strategy).

[Xisor]

I think they could do with some... consolidation.

 

My hope is that in time, Tacticals and Intercessors will be resolved into one unit: Primaris statline, but with special and heavy weapon options. (All bolter Tactical & Sternguard Marines aren't any more generalist than Intercessors, only less resilient, fusing them down the line should be no issue.)

 

Same with Devs & Hellblasters.

 

Assault, Vanguard and Rivers could all be rolled in together too once sufficient time has passed.

 

Making terminators a single profile would tidy things up too.

 

In that respect, I don't think the Codex is bloated so much as saturated. Having tons of stuff in it isn't strictly a problem, but it is a bit of a hassle.

 

Though speaking of bloat.

 

How about all them bolt weapons...

[Volt]

Well for one you could easily compress the terminator datasheets. There is no need for tartaros, cataphractii, and indomitus to be their own sheets (which gets really crazy if you're dark angels, in which case not only do you have 4 terminator units, but terminator characters to boot). Just have Adeptus Astartes "Terminators", with Indomitus being the base stats and you being able to individually upgrade/side grade models within the unit to be tartaros/cataphractii. Not only would this allow you to have mixed units, but it would strip away the bloat. Weapon options should also be consolidated, there's no need to differentiate between combi bolters and storm bolters WHEN THEY ARE THE EXACT SAME THING. Or restrict Indomitus/Cataphratii from access to autocannons and the like. 

 

Hell, same goes for vanguard and sternguard. Why not just have an option to increase the stats of a tactical/assault squad and turn them into an elite unit?

[Panzer]

Why not just have an option to increase the stats of a tactical/assault squad and turn them into an elite unit?

 

*cough* Indomitus Crusade specialist detachment *cough*

[Ishagu]

You could probably cut down almost all of the classic marine infantry range to 4 datasheets, and the same with the vehicles.

[Charlo]

Its bloated because each edition came with a few new token units to round out the Marine list and more importantly, drive sales in a faction that everyone already had all the models for. This is essential, otherwise see WHFB as to what happens...!

 

Back when marines were:

• Some specialty HQs
• Tacs/ Devs/ Assaults
• Terminators/ Vets/ Command Squad
• Transports/ Tanks
• Speeders/ Bikes

Then they added artillery, then more specific chapter units, then flyers, then more flyers, then tanks to fight enemy flyers, then big shooty/ fighty dudes because something new needed to release. In between this they redid the main infantry units and the previous tanks.

 

So yeah, all bases were covered, so the only way to squeeze more money out was to release some TOTALLY new stuff - hence the Primaris and their shift from generalist to specialist warfare and a way to eek out more dolla from us lot.

 

The point about detachments is a great one too, a units force org slot doesn't really matter anymore outside of troops (usually being a tax and granting CPs and claiming objectives). Assault marines being fast attack just means they are fast tacticals that don't capture objectives as easily and a little bit more fighty/ less shooty.

 

Maybe it is time to move ASM and Devs to the troops slot? But probably not, as thats what the FA/ HS detachments are for.

 

TL;DR: No all choices are even and they shouldn't be, but considering that it's still more options - I'd rather have a chunky codex of a variety of units, than one of 10 or so with middling power.

[Brother Casman]

You could probably cut down almost all of the classic marine infantry range to 4 datasheets, and the same with the vehicles.

If you did that, you'd create some remarkably complex datasheets, which is seemingly against the ethos of the 8th edition design. Now, I'm not opposed to complexity in general but it can be hard to strike a proper balance. Something like merging all of the captain datasheets, for example, would seem to be relatively easy and shouldn't add too much unnecessary complexity. More than this style of update would probably be too much, I think.

 

I also agree with Charlo - I'd rather have a chunky codex than a streamlined one, but then, as you all likely know by now, I am a narrative gamer.

[Ishagu]

Yeah definitely. I think this is the main problem with Astartes - too many units are too similar. If you look at Devs and Tacticals, they don't have unique weapons or stats, the only difference is how many weapons they can take per a set number of models.

 

The Terminators would make more sense if every variant has access to all wargear but you'd chose the armour type from the sheet - different rules and costs.

[Lemondish]

I think they could do with some... consolidation.

 

My hope is that in time, Tacticals and Intercessors will be resolved into one unit: Primaris statline, but with special and heavy weapon options. (All bolter Tactical & Sternguard Marines aren't any more generalist than Intercessors, only less resilient, fusing them down the line should be no issue.)

 

Same with Devs & Hellblasters.

 

Assault, Vanguard and Rivers could all be rolled in together too once sufficient time has passed.

 

Making terminators a single profile would tidy things up too.

 

In that respect, I don't think the Codex is bloated so much as saturated. Having tons of stuff in it isn't strictly a problem, but it is a bit of a hassle.

 

Though speaking of bloat.

 

How about all them bolt weapons...

 

I disagree. Tactical marines start with a baseline anti light infantry capability and can marginally specialize with wargear selections. I posit that this is what makes them generalists - a baseline role of anti light infantry objective secured troops that can branch out to contribute to another role. That flexibility makes them generalists and gives them the potential to contribute everywhere. 

 

For example, a tactical squad with a plasma and combi-plasma now brings some anti heavy infantry firepower on top of their baseline role. A squad with a combi-flamer and heavy bolter seeks to help in clearing hordes in addition to their baseline contributions. Add a lascannon and this unit is now adding to your tank hunting capabilities. 

 

Intercessors do not stray from that baseline contribution, and that means they have a strict role and purpose that prevents them from being generalists. Their role is that of resilient objective campers with anti light infantry firepower that can contribute in the same vein in a scrap. No more, no less. They start from the same baseline as the Tacticals, but are specifically designed to stay there. I think that this is the key benefit Primaris has over the other marines.

 

Same with Hellblasters and Devs. Hellblasters bring anti heavy everything firepower that makes up for low damage per shot by melting armour and providing far more shots. Devastators can specialize into various types of heavy weaponry. Through wargear, one can provide a generalist approach, while the other has a very specific role that it does above all else. 

 

Again, not sure I agree on the assault, vanguard, and Reivers part - and that's the one where the differences are so stark it's hard to see where you're coming from here. I do agree assault and vanguard don't make sense simply because assault are point for point worse than Vanguard, though I could see a world where all three continue to exist. 

 

I cannot agree enough about Terminators. 

[Marshal Reinhard]

I would honestly prefer if terminators were all functionally identical.

 

There's 8 classic patterns of power armour that are functionally identical. Why cannot Indomitus, Cataphractii and Tartaros be like that? They can be different in HH if they need to be,but in 40k we have one tactical squad sheet, no matter what power armor they got, no real reason to go all nuts with different versions for terminators either if you ask me.

[Xisor]

That's fair, Lemondish.

 

I am somewhat thinking forward, and then speculating wildly: there will be new releases. There will be some consolidation/streamlining of the model range.

 

People seem to be agitating for a forest fire, but even the smallest losses will be felt.

 

I think consolidation (and to an extent: simplification) is the key.

 

Plenty of options how to do it, but maintaining the (trivial) uniqueness of all units seems ill-advised. (And the difference between Intercessors and Tacticals seems massively trivial. Give an Intercessor squad an extra Cawl Combustor and a Plasma Rocket Pipe to play with and suddenly it's really just a tall tactical squad.)

 

Keep a Tactical Squad bare, and it's a cheap Intercessor Squad.

 

Running a bare Tactical squad aggressively and you've got cheap Reivers.

[Lemondish]

Plenty of options how to do it, but maintaining the (trivial) uniqueness of all units seems ill-advised. (And the difference between Intercessors and Tacticals seems massively trivial. Give an Intercessor squad an extra Cawl Combustor and a Plasma Rocket Pipe to play with and suddenly it's really just a tall tactical squad.)

 

For the most part, you're not wrong. They would be pretty close to identical. I just don't think they'll go about giving them those options. I think they're pretty married to the Legion concept. I think there's value in that, too. Prior to the points changes in the first CA, Intercessors, Reivers, and Hellblasters held different base price points. If rumours hold up, they likely will again. Following on, they all carry different weapons than anything else in the Primaris range, meaning they could fundamentally adjust the stats or points costs of those units independently. 

 

For example, if they find their internal metrics for bolt rifles are a bit too high, adjustments can be made without impacting every marine, sister, or guardsman unit with a boltgun. If they feel that Hellblasters need help, then toying with the cost on the Plasma Incinerator is an option, and they can do so without any impact to the rest of the range, let alone the rest of the Imperium. Can't say the same is true about the plasma gun...

 

It's cleaner, and I think they'll use that to avoid making the same mistakes twice with marines. 

 

But this is all coming from a perspective that, while still early, I think holds up with each new Primaris release: I believe they're fundamentally focused on changing what a marine army actually is. By that I mean the army's identity. I think Primaris is a way for them to reset how they feel marines should play, while at the same time I don't think they intend to wipe out the old identity for marines entirely. They'll remain distinct and separate, but the former will be essentially abandoned to its current state while the Primaris explore new territory. Rather than seeing Primaris pivot towards minimarines, I see them as a fundamental fork in the road - one they won't easily backtrack. And I think that's smarter because the current marine design just doesn't seem to work very well...

 

Of course I have been known to be completely wrong...from time to time. 

[Marshal Arthur]

I would honestly prefer if terminators were all functionally identical.

 

There's 8 classic patterns of power armour that are functionally identical. Why cannot Indomitus, Cataphractii and Tartaros be like that? They can be different in HH if they need to be,but in 40k we have one tactical squad sheet, no matter what power armor they got, no real reason to go all nuts with different versions for terminators either if you ask me.

I agree. One set of terminator stats and make the armor purely aesthetic. Plus with one sheet you could do mixed shooting and melee. Not sure how often that would matter but choice isn’t a bad thing. Then merge the rhino and Razorback sheet with the option to sacrifice transport space for a heavy weapon turret. Merge all rhino based artillery and anti air into one data sheet. Give your characters upgrade options instead of additional datasheets. Get rid of company vets and company/chapter champions entirely. Make assault marines a troop choice for mobile objective grabbers and maybe move vanguard to fast attack to fill that void as hard hitting mobile assault units. Finally, merge all landrauder datasheets and use the “name your own landraider” as a basis for adding upgrades. Doubt any of that will happen but it would greatly reduce the bloat.

[MARK0SIAN]

Personally I’m against merging any datasheets unless they remove the rule of 3. Particularly for some of the merging being suggested which is combining 3 or 4 separate sheets at the moment. You’d be really restricting what you could take.

[chapter master 454]

Personally I’m against merging any datasheets unless they remove the rule of 3. Particularly for some of the merging being suggested which is combining 3 or 4 separate sheets at the moment. You’d be really restricting what you could take.

 

Kinda of the thing to be dealt with really.

 

I could see dreadnoughts retaining their 3-4 variants, they actually have differences however for tanks I think we can condense it quite nicely by making use of the awesome stalker/hunter body and having them share whirlwind sheet as a form of SPG (self-propelled gun) datasheet really.

Vindicators and Predators are fine.

Land Raiders could have some combining done (and if you aren't me then the rule of 3 wouldn't bother you!)

 

One thing I would like to see return is having tank squadrons again. Also carry on the idea of if you take a full squad, you gain a benefit (that isn't turned off if you lose one of the unit thank you).

[Elzender]

About vanguard/sternguard and other veterans, maybe they could combined into a single entry, with different options:

- initial access to melee weapons and pistols.

- Can buy jump packs (to become vanguards), and gain any special rules vanguards might currently have (not uo to date with the rules).

- Can buy special ammo bolters to turn into sternguard, gain any special rule they might have now, but restricts their melee choices.

 

Otherwise, bring back terminator honours as a way to represent upgrade to veteran status, and be able to buy it for assault and tactical squads, and units that have them unlock additional options?

[Guest MistaGav]

 

Personally I’m against merging any datasheets unless they remove the rule of 3. Particularly for some of the merging being suggested which is combining 3 or 4 separate sheets at the moment. You’d be really restricting what you could take.

 

Kinda of the thing to be dealt with really.

 

I could see dreadnoughts retaining their 3-4 variants, they actually have differences however for tanks I think we can condense it quite nicely by making use of the awesome stalker/hunter body and having them share whirlwind sheet as a form of SPG (self-propelled gun) datasheet really.

Vindicators and Predators are fine.

Land Raiders could have some combining done (and if you aren't me then the rule of 3 wouldn't bother you!)

 

One thing I would like to see return is having tank squadrons again. Also carry on the idea of if you take a full squad, you gain a benefit (that isn't turned off if you lose one of the unit thank you).

 

 

All they need to do is allow all the tanks to be taken in squads of 1-3 so with Ro3 means plenty of tanks to go around.

[Marshal Arthur]

Tank squadrons would be great still restrict the bigger tanks that can’t squad up. As for giving each unit a distinct role one option for assault marines could be a stratagem allowing them a consolidation move even if they didn’t destroy the target unit. Couple this with an increased consolidation move for assault marines or all jump troops and they can get around bubble wrap alright. Charge a squad of guardsmen, kill a good chunk, and then move into the tank or heavy weapon teams behind them. They don’t have the bite to really demolish these units but would make a solid harassment unit.

[spessmarine]

Personally I wouldn’t like to see a wholesale transplant of all the Heresy units. I like that there’s different units in each game, I think the Heresy should have some unique stuff that isn’t in 40k, just as there’s plenty of stuff in 40k that’s not in the Heresy.

 

It helps keep the two games distinct and actually succeeds in giving Marines a different identity/playstyle in the Heresy game. I’d hate to see them become essentially the same armies just using a different ruleset.

 

Focus on reducing the bloat by giving good rules to each unit so it has a specific role in the battle rather than making everything very similar so only the best version ever gets taken. It’d be quite simple to make it so that standard assault marines were great at clearing out large, T3 chaff units whilst vanguard were meant for harder targets but at the moment, you’d probably just use vanguard for both (if you were going to use that as your anti-horde strategy).

 

Less copy paste the entire 30k book over in that example and more over here are ideas of how you could add to the SM line but can't between of the Codex Astartes.

[Medjugorje]

it its too bloated... we will cut the black templars out and give them a own codex. Then everyone is excited