Khorne berzerkers and tactics, fluff question.

[Token]

Do Khorne Berzerkers use any strategy, like sneaking up to the enemy, flanking them or something, or do they just run at the enemy as fast as they can?

 

Please excuse grammar, Spelling mistakes and such.

[RobWrath]

From the fluff I've read they are known for forgetting any battle plans once they engage with the enemy. 

But remember, they are all space marines to start with - they are not mindless idiots.

 

So I think anything goes really.

 

In the case of World Eaters they can be quite considered until the effects of the Butcher's Nails take hold. 

[Closet Skeleton]

Most Khorne berserkers don't fight in pure berserker armies so will follow the orders of the warband leader until the bloodshed fights and there's no controlling them anymore.

 

A berserker horde probably just rushes forwards but there's no reason they can't make informed choices about where they rush forwards so might try and outflank or focus on a Fortress' weak point. They won't sneak up unless they're Alpha Legion ones (who probably won't be a pure berserker force so see first paragraph).

[Panzer]

Yeah it depends on how well they can control themselves. They may be starting with a proper strategie and depending on how the battle goes they will be following it for the most part but once they make contact with the enemy they'll have a hard time to stop the slaughtering and follow any specific plans.

And then there are the ones who've fallen really deep who don't care about plans and strategies from the beginning and just care about getting to the enemy in a straight line.

[Token]

Hm, so they can "keep calm" before being close to the enemy? Fluffwise, could they be bated, by say, scout bikes who rides out in front of them, they go berzerk and attack, but the bikes drive away quickly?

 

Please excuse grammar, Spelling mistakes and such.

[RobWrath]

I think it would greatly depend who is commanding them. 

 

Without a strong warlord holding them back I think it'd be quite easy to bait a trap like you described. 

 

But they aren't stupid - it wouldn't be like a dog chasing a stick!

[Panzer]

"calm" is a stretch but not all of them are mindless murder hobos 24/7 when there's no enemy around. ^^

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

In the Gaunt's Ghosts books, enemy Berserkers are canny enough to wait motionless in ambush for an extended period. 

 

Then as soon as the enemy shows up.....hoo boy.

 

There is also an example in the actual CSM Codex (on pg 44) of a World Eater Commander actually ordering things like suppressing fire and having a discussion with his subordinates.

 

Basically, as others have said, until the Nails bite deep, they're still Space Marines. Once they do, though, you can have insane stuff like surmounting walls using piles of their own dead as ramps, etc.

[Trevak Dal]

 

In my head cannon my world eaters are like the best of Klingons and Warcraft Orcs, with a dash of Deathseekers from Fantasy.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I don't think zerkers lose control until the nails start to bite.

[RobWrath]

Worth mentioning that not all Khorne Berserkers have the Butcher's Nails. 

 

I imagine non-WE berserkers are driven on my religious fervour and pure and simple insanity. So you could probably make a case that these guys will generally have less control than WE.

 

In my warband's fluff my warlord finds a Dark Apostle to fit some non-WE berserkers with the Nails, to make them easier to drive into combat and less likely to be distracted by despoiling and eating the dead. They are real nice guys...

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Worth mentioning that not all Khorne Berserkers have the Butcher's Nails. 

 

I imagine non-WE berserkers are driven on my religious fervour and pure and simple insanity. So you could probably make a case that these guys will generally have less control than WE.

 

In my warband's fluff my warlord finds a Dark Apostle to fit some non-WE berserkers with the Nails, to make them easier to drive into combat and less likely to be distracted by despoiling and eating the dead. They are real nice guys...

 

Hoping for a Berserker Surgeon Apothecary-equivalent when WE codex eventually comes, kinda like the Plague Surgeon for DG.

 

They already exist in the fluff. They appeared in at least one of the fiction anthologies.

[Panzer]

In the Fabius Bile books there was a World Eater Apothecary that was able to do his work properly due all the drugs Bile provided him with and once he stopped the drug supply he was able to go berzerk again. I think he said something about him being the the last or one of the last Apothecaries of his Legion or such. So the chance of a Berzerker Apothecary equivalent in a WE Codex seems small. Something that makes them rage harder to give them a FnP-like ability to ignore wounds sounds more likely to me.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

In the Fabius Bile books there was a World Eater Apothecary that was able to do his work properly due all the drugs Bile provided him with and once he stopped the drug supply he was able to go berzerk again. I think he said something about him being the the last or one of the last Apothecaries of his Legion or such. So the chance of a Berzerker Apothecary equivalent in a WE Codex seems small. Something that makes them rage harder to give them a FnP-like ability to ignore wounds sounds more likely to me.

 

Both the Black Legion and the World Eaters are said to have Berserker Surgeons that create new Berserkers. I imagine that Apothecaries as most know them are gone, but it would be cool to have something in their place....and yeah, functionality equivalent to a Bloodstoker in AoS would make sense.

[RobWrath]

 

In the Fabius Bile books there was a World Eater Apothecary that was able to do his work properly due all the drugs Bile provided him with and once he stopped the drug supply he was able to go berzerk again. I think he said something about him being the the last or one of the last Apothecaries of his Legion or such. So the chance of a Berzerker Apothecary equivalent in a WE Codex seems small. Something that makes them rage harder to give them a FnP-like ability to ignore wounds sounds more likely to me.

 

Both the Black Legion and the World Eaters are said to have Berserker Surgeons that create new Berserkers. I imagine that Apothecaries as most know them are gone, but it would be cool to have something in their place....and yeah, functionality equivalent to a Bloodstoker in AoS would make sense.

 

 

 

I imagine it being quite rough and ready surgery, with not much worry given to what happens if it goes wrong (if he dies, he dies). 

So a DA with the knowledge and with access to a lab/tech facilities and some servitors was going to be my fluff explanation.

[Indefragable]

When Berzerkers actually get into a fight, a 1:1 duel, for instance, are they able to use enough brainpower to know when to block, when to parry, when to chop, etc...?

 

I would think so. Extending this logic, then they and their leaders are presumably able to at least use enough brainpower to use some tactical judgement about when and where they charge.

 

Of course on both levels, they are ever driven to take blood with their own two hands so they are always oriented towards offensive and all-out attacks, especially as momentum builds, but they are probably capable enough to not send themselves directly at the most prepared position of the enemy.

[betrayer41]

 

Worth mentioning that not all Khorne Berserkers have the Butcher's Nails. 

 

I imagine non-WE berserkers are driven on my religious fervour and pure and simple insanity. So you could probably make a case that these guys will generally have less control than WE.

 

In my warband's fluff my warlord finds a Dark Apostle to fit some non-WE berserkers with the Nails, to make them easier to drive into combat and less likely to be distracted by despoiling and eating the dead. They are real nice guys...

 

Hoping for a Berserker Surgeon Apothecary-equivalent when WE codex eventually comes, kinda like the Plague Surgeon for DG.

 

They already exist in the fluff. They appeared in at least one of the fiction anthologies.

 

 

Kargos!!!!

[shortysl]

When Berzerkers actually get into a fight, a 1:1 duel, for instance, are they able to use enough brainpower to know when to block, when to parry, when to chop, etc...?

 

I would think so. Extending this logic, then they and their leaders are presumably able to at least use enough brainpower to use some tactical judgement about when and where they charge.

I'd say do, as that kind of thing would be mostly muscle memory. Berserkers would still parry and dodge because their urge is to kill, not to be killed.

[RobWrath]

Pretty sure there are fluff references to CSMs being much more concerned about death than the loyalists because they KNOW what's waiting on the other side!

[Excessus]

One of the better scenes in one of the weakest books in the heresy series explains how a World Eater sergeant fights by being able to read the ebb and flow of the nails biting into his brain and use the aggression they give optimally...and then he gets a plasma through the chest but the nails just bite harder then because he's unable to fight properly... :P

[Closet Skeleton]

Worth mentioning that not all Khorne Berserkers have the Butcher's Nails. 

 

I imagine non-WE berserkers are driven on my religious fervour and pure and simple insanity. So you could probably make a case that these guys will generally have less control than WE.

 

Not all Berserkers have nails but they do all have some form of surgery to make them more berserk, nailess non-World Eaters berserkers have some kind of knock-off version of the nails that produces similar effects just not in the exact same way. Just being a Khornate lunatic only means you have the mark of khorne it doesn't make you a berserker.

[Trevak Dal]

I kind of like the idea of a Farcry 1/3 vibe where through meditation and pharmacology they enduce Nails like effects.

 

It's basically what all space marines do (hypnotherapy and chemotherapy), but more extreme and ritualized.

[Panzer]

Pretty sure creative minds can find other ways to explain berzerkers than just Nails and knock-off Nails. The galaxy is a big place after all. ^^

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

Uzas was a Night Lords Khorne Berzerkers and he was just blessed by the Blood God with psychotic rage whenever a battle would start. He also comments on how even when he's calm all he feels is seething rage inside. This constant Khornate anger left him eerily quiet, at times.

[RobWrath]

Uzas was a Night Lords Khorne Berzerkers and he was just blessed by the Blood God with psychotic rage whenever a battle would start. He also comments on how even when he's calm all he feels is seething rage inside. This constant Khornate anger left him eerily quiet, at times.

I like that image. Quiet and still on the outside, inside there are constant screams of rage.