What do you think about 5 pts guardsmen?

[Phubar]

As i wrote in a Fb page, about HYPOTETICALLY raising Infantry Squads to 5 pts per model:

 

The problem is CP generation? Keep CPs separated by army. So Guard CPs can used only on guard units.

I dont like guardsmen at 5 pts. They are meatshields, their offensive power is their number, not their quality. For quality we have scions and veterans.

ISs need orders to be effective (so increase officers points instead) and their use will be to block charges, claim objectives and charge (and next turn die) shooty units/vehicles only to prevent them to fire in the next turn.

For me IS have to be squishy, weak, in big numbers and cheap.

As opposed to SM that have to be durable, strong, few and expensive.

 

I like discussions in this community so what are your thoughts? Its bad, good, it could be different?

 

Edit: typo and clarification.

[Charlo]

Guardsmen were undercosted before IMO and remain to be incredibly effective at an extra point more.

 

Its less their statline but their ability to:

• Generate CP
• Bring Special/ Heavy Weapons
• ORDERS - the biggest factor imo.

[MrZakalwe]

I'd be OK with it as long as we had across the board points reductions for upgrades and weapons. Currently the 'naked' infantry squad is too cheap for how effective it is at screening while one with a heavy weapon and special weapon is arguably too expensive when you factor in it's poor BS and general fragility.

 

Officers lack the stat line to really absorb a points increase but it might happen anyway, sadly.

[Thorakitai]

At the end of the day, no one would complain if infantry squads weren't being taken by everyone and their dog for cheap CPs. Increasing the loyal 32 by 30 points won't stop this. It's a great way to screw over pure guard armies though, which makes all the whining about soup really ironic.

 

I suppose knight armies might switch to bringing an AdMech battalion for CPs instead, so perhaps people will complain about guard a little less, but ultimately the problem is the CP system, not model costs.

[Tirak]

5pt guard are going to kill a lot of lists. It's an absolutely terrible idea designed to combat a problem that isn't of the Guard's making, the Loyal 32. Space Marine players bringing us along as CP batteries then blaming us for how our army works shouldn't be the reason why the Guard gets penalized and I'm moderately furious that this is being considered as an option. First of all it's a sledge hammer to a scalpel issue, and it's not even going to resolve the issue. 200pts vs 230 points isn't going to cause one of those Space Marine players who brings us along as a battery bat an eye, yet it's going to have wide reaching and heavily damaging impacts on pure Guard players across the board.

 

At the end of the day, this is the previous edition grognards getting their way. They didn't adapt to the new system and so they're trying to get GW to smash any hoard army they can find, and the Guard are a convenient target because so many 'Space Marine' players bring us along so they get more CP to run their stratagems.

[NatBrannigan]

Yep...

 

Plenty of arguments about this on numerous other threads. I still think the reason 10 Guard seem "over powered" is because no-one takes anti-infantry weapons. Make an army to take on Knights and then moan that your 5 Lascannons squad only kill 4 Guardsmen a turn?

 

Just fix the CP's and leave us alone already!

[MrZakalwe]

Yep...

 

Plenty of arguments about this on numerous other threads. I still think the reason 10 Guard seem "over powered" is because no-one takes anti-infantry weapons. Make an army to take on Knights and then moan that your 5 Lascannons squad only kill 4 Guardsmen a turn?

 

Just fix the CP's and leave us alone already!

They are also pretty tough against anti-infantry weapons now that flak armour saves against 33% of bolter shots (or 50% in cover which you will always be in first turn). Anti-infantry shots without huge weight of dice behind them just aren't very good against Imperial Guard, almost nothing kills them efficiently.

[Tirak]

 

Yep...

 

Plenty of arguments about this on numerous other threads. I still think the reason 10 Guard seem "over powered" is because no-one takes anti-infantry weapons. Make an army to take on Knights and then moan that your 5 Lascannons squad only kill 4 Guardsmen a turn?

 

Just fix the CP's and leave us alone already!

They are also pretty tough against anti-infantry weapons now that flak armour saves against 33% of bolter shots (or 50% in cover which you will always be in first turn). Anti-infantry shots without huge weight of dice behind them just aren't very good against Imperial Guard, almost nothing kills them efficiently.

 

 

That flak armor save gets mighty thin in actual combat. Massed bolter fire, which is easy to provide, assault cannons, mortars, anything that throws dice breaks guard squads, and with our Conscripts in such a piss poor spot, we're not massing huge squads which are hard to wipe out. Follow that up with how weak we are in melee, the good old shot and charge still shatters guard formations.

[Beams]

 

 

 

Yep...

 

Plenty of arguments about this on numerous other threads. I still think the reason 10 Guard seem "over powered" is because no-one takes anti-infantry weapons. Make an army to take on Knights and then moan that your 5 Lascannons squad only kill 4 Guardsmen a turn?

 

Just fix the CP's and leave us alone already!

They are also pretty tough against anti-infantry weapons now that flak armour saves against 33% of bolter shots (or 50% in cover which you will always be in first turn). Anti-infantry shots without huge weight of dice behind them just aren't very good against Imperial Guard, almost nothing kills them efficiently.

That flak armor save gets mighty thin in actual combat. Massed bolter fire, which is easy to provide, assault cannons, mortars, anything that throws dice breaks guard squads, and with our Conscripts in such a piss poor spot, we're not massing huge squads which are hard to wipe out. Follow that up with how weak we are in melee, the good old shot and charge still shatters guard formations.

A properly buffed and kitted of battle Dominion squad usually kills two squads of Guardsmen a turn.

 

You just need a decent number of Bolter shots, and guardsmen die in droves.

[librisrouge]

Goodbye Loyal 32, hello Loyal 17. Admech just got a shot in the arm. Expect complaints on its brokenness to rise accordingly.

[MrZakalwe]

A properly buffed and kitted of battle Dominion squad usually kills two squads of Guardsmen a turn.

 

You just need a decent number of Bolter shots, and guardsmen die in droves.

Does it though? 3s to hit, 3s to wound 4+ save often. That's less than 4 dead models a turn with the 5 stormbolter Dominion squad when within a reroll 1s aura. That's not all that efficient (40 point squads, baby) and it's a unit custom designed to kill light infantry.

 

Screen intact, basically.

[librisrouge]

 

A properly buffed and kitted of battle Dominion squad usually kills two squads of Guardsmen a turn.

 

You just need a decent number of Bolter shots, and guardsmen die in droves.

Does it though? 3s to hit, 3s to wound 4+ save often. That's less than 4 dead models a turn with the 5 stormbolter Dominion squad when within a reroll 1s aura. That's not all that efficient (40 point squads, baby) and it's a unit custom designed to kill light infantry.

 

Screen intact, basically.

 

My math had it at 7 casualties, outside of the aura. However, I think he's taking into account melee, since that dominion squad should be charging afterward, and morale since we'd either lose more guys there or have to spend CP to staunch the bleeding. Either way, the truth is probably a somewhere between you two and your point largely stands.

[Tirak]

 

A properly buffed and kitted of battle Dominion squad usually kills two squads of Guardsmen a turn.

 

You just need a decent number of Bolter shots, and guardsmen die in droves.

Does it though? 3s to hit, 3s to wound 4+ save often. That's less than 4 dead models a turn with the 5 stormbolter Dominion squad when within a reroll 1s aura. That's not all that efficient (40 point squads, baby) and it's a unit custom designed to kill light infantry.

 

Screen intact, basically.

 

 

A 50 point Dominion Squad, that's 5 gals with 5 Stormbolters and a Bolt Pistol, deals 6.22 wounds on an infantry squad. Which means if you don't roll a 1 you're losing more people. That's no buffs, no powerups, no act of faith, no nothin. The guard shooting back at 41 points with a boltgun, do 1.61 damage back at the same range. 

 

Now lets add in a reroll 1s aura. That's 7.259, so now anything you roll on the morale die is an extra death, so you have a 2/3 chance of losing the whole squad from morale. You can make that a 1/2 if you're Catachan near an officer, bringing around a Commissar or you're Mordian.

 

Now at 5 point guardsmen, now that Dominion squad costs the exact same as you...

[Beams]

 

 

A properly buffed and kitted of battle Dominion squad usually kills two squads of Guardsmen a turn.

You just need a decent number of Bolter shots, and guardsmen die in droves.

 

Does it though? 3s to hit, 3s to wound 4+ save often. That's less than 4 dead models a turn with the 5 stormbolter Dominion squad when within a reroll 1s aura. That's not all that efficient (40 point squads, baby) and it's a unit custom designed to kill light infantry.

Screen intact, basically.

My math had it at 7 casualties, outside of the aura. However, I think he's taking into account melee, since that dominion squad should be charging afterward, and morale since we'd either lose more guys there or have to spend CP to staunch the bleeding. Either way, the truth is probably a somewhere between you two and your point largely stands.

 

 

A properly buffed and kitted of battle Dominion squad usually kills two squads of Guardsmen a turn.

You just need a decent number of Bolter shots, and guardsmen die in droves.

 

Does it though? 3s to hit, 3s to wound 4+ save often. That's less than 4 dead models a turn with the 5 stormbolter Dominion squad when within a reroll 1s aura. That's not all that efficient (40 point squads, baby) and it's a unit custom designed to kill light infantry.

Screen intact, basically.

My math had it at 7 casualties, outside of the aura. However, I think he's taking into account melee, since that dominion squad should be charging afterward, and morale since we'd either lose more guys there or have to spend CP to staunch the bleeding. Either way, the truth is probably a somewhere between you two and your point largely stands.

I have it at 30 shots (20 stormbolter, 10 Bolter) with a cannoness for 9.4 wounds, assuming morale finishes off the last guy. AoF to fire twice, and that's two squads a turn.

 

Outside of rapid fire range, your looking at 4.5 wounds.

 

But also, with Bloody Rose tactics (+1 attack and +1 Str on charge) you could also deal Around 5 wounds in close combat.

 

Edit: the only reason I think people are scared of Guardsmen, is the typical marine list only has 10 bolters and less than thirty bodies.

 

Edit 2: this is assuming a 10 woman squad, 5 with stormbolters 5 with bolters, at 110 pts.

[Tirak]

I have it at 30 shots (20 stormbolter, 10 Bolter) with a cannoness for 9.4 wounds, assuming morale finishes off the last guy. AoF to fire twice, and that's two squads a turn.

 

Outside of rapid fire range, your looking at 4.5 wounds.

 

But also, with Bloody Rose tactics (+1 attack and +1 Str on charge) you could also deal Around 5 wounds in close combat.

 

Edit: the only reason I think people are scared of Guardsmen, is the typical marine list only has 10 bolters and less than thirty bodies.

 

 

 

 

Huh, I didn't realize the Dominions carried the Boltpistol in addition to the special weapon.

[MrZakalwe]

Ahh I was assuming a range of between 12" - 24" with a 10 strong unit with 5 bolters and 5 stormbolters (so 15 shots) with the Guard infantry using the prepared positions strat. Guard infantry are primarily a screen and with deepstrike being a turn 2 thing for anti-infantry firepower to be able to counter guard infantry screens it needs to be able to do it on turn 1. 

[Beams]

Ahh I was assuming a range of between 12" - 24" with a 10 strong unit with 5 bolters and 5 stormbolters (so 15 shots) with the Guard infantry using the prepared positions strat. Guard infantry are primarily a screen and with deepstrike being a turn 2 thing for anti-infantry firepower to be able to counter guard infantry screens it needs to be able to do it on turn 1.

 

Ahh I was assuming a range of between 12" - 24" with a 10 strong unit with 5 bolters and 5 stormbolters (so 15 shots) with the Guard infantry using the prepared positions strat. Guard infantry are primarily a screen and with deepstrike being a turn 2 thing for anti-infantry firepower to be able to counter guard infantry screens it needs to be able to do it on turn 1.

 

You still can put out an outstanding amount of firepower turn 1 - scout move for 6"+d6" movement, AoF to shoot, move another 6", shoot (this time in rapid fire) and then charge to finish it off (Especially if playing Bloody Rose)

 

Alternatively, flamer Dominions in a twin heavy flamer Repressor makes short work of Guardsmen.

 

There's a lot of good antiguard out there. Guarden at 5 pts is really not great, And won't solve the antiguard hate brigading since the loyal 32 won't be going away because it went up 30 pts.

[MARK0SIAN]

A model cannot fire a pistol and a stormbolter in the same turn so have you got those bolter shots from 5 other models?

[Tirak]

A model cannot fire a pistol and a stormbolters in the same turn. It is either pistol or stormbolter.

 

A model can fire every weapon it has.

[H311fi5h]

Not pistols and grenades though.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

A model cannot fire a pistol and a stormbolters in the same turn. It is either pistol or stormbolter.

A model can fire every weapon it has.

A model can fire every non-pistol weapon it has or it’s pistols. The rule book quote below:

 

Each time a model equipped with both a Pistol and another type of ranged weapon (e.g. a Pistol and a Rapid Fire weapon) shoots, it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) or with all of its other weapons. Choose which it will fire (Pistols or non-Pistols) before making hit rolls.

[MrZakalwe]

You still can put out an outstanding amount of firepower turn 1 - scout move for 6"+d6" movement, AoF to shoot, move another 6", shoot (this time in rapid fire) and then charge to finish it off (Especially if playing Bloody Rose)

It's fantastic anti infantry firepower (best in class) and requires using a 1 per turn resource (faith) and a specialist unit to do it once to a 40 point unit - it's unlikely you will be able to punch a hole in the screen level 1 with it unless the squads are spammed (and if you are doing that then I don't have so many melta Dominions in Repressors to worry about which would be wonderful and a nice change from a recent game I had against Sisters)). Arguably the best infantry screen busting unit in the game can't do it reliably with any scale.

[Tirak]

 

You still can put out an outstanding amount of firepower turn 1 - scout move for 6"+d6" movement, AoF to shoot, move another 6", shoot (this time in rapid fire) and then charge to finish it off (Especially if playing Bloody Rose)

It's fantastic anti infantry firepower (best in class) and requires using a 1 per turn resource (faith) and a specialist unit to do it once to a 40 point unit - it's unlikely you will be able to punch a hole in the screen level 1 with it unless the squads are spammed (and if you are doing that then I don't have so many melta Dominions in Repressors to worry about which would be wonderful and a nice change from a recent game I had against Sisters)). Arguably the best infantry screen busting unit in the game can't do it reliably with any scale.

 

 

Mate the squad is 50 points, the guard squad is now the same point value and significantly less powerful. Knocking out 20 guardsmen is 1/5 your infantry force, and they're in the middle of your line now. You can get extra acts of faith through Celestine and Imagifiers, so it ain't a 1 per turn resource because you'll have those for your normal army anyway. If you figure you bring 3 of these squads, that's 150 points, this isn't exactly a major investment to neuter the guard screen.

[MrZakalwe]

Mate the squad is 50 points, the guard squad is now the same point value and significantly less powerful. Knocking out 20 guardsmen is 1/5 your infantry force, and they're in the middle of your line now. You can get extra acts of faith through Celestine and Imagifiers, so it ain't a 1 per turn resource because you'll have those for your normal army anyway. If you figure you bring 3 of these squads, that's 150 points, this isn't exactly a major investment to neuter the guard screen.

Celestine and Imagifers will both be unavailable to dominions on turn 1 so yeah you've got access to 1 act of faith for this purpose - the squads in question are quite naff against most targets so unless it's a tailored anti--guard list you're unlikely to see many of them. You get one squad with all those buffs.

[sairence]

I think discussion about the effectiveness of Dominions should potentially move to the Sisters-forum.

 

I don't really mind 5ppm for Guardsmen. Granted, I don't play mass infantry and rarely bring more than 5 squads...but you can't possibly argue that they are not stupidly effective thanks to the flexibility of orders. And then you add doctrines on top and it becomes hillarious how good they can be if used well.

 

We'll survive and adapt, just as the Guard always does. In the end...we'll be paying 10p more for a squad. The sky is not falling, especially when you look at some of the other changes rumoured to come.

 

We may actually be able to shoot Eldar effectively now! How great is that?