What do you think about 5 pts guardsmen?

[Tirak]

 

Mate the squad is 50 points, the guard squad is now the same point value and significantly less powerful. Knocking out 20 guardsmen is 1/5 your infantry force, and they're in the middle of your line now. You can get extra acts of faith through Celestine and Imagifiers, so it ain't a 1 per turn resource because you'll have those for your normal army anyway. If you figure you bring 3 of these squads, that's 150 points, this isn't exactly a major investment to neuter the guard screen.

Celestine and Imagifers will both be unavailable to dominions on turn 1 so yeah you've got access to 1 act of faith for this purpose - the squads in question are quite naff against most targets so unless it's a tailored anti--guard list you're unlikely to see many of them. You get one squad with all those buffs.

 

 

The squad will tie up the tanks that the screen they just shattered were covering. That works against any vehicle honestly. They're also quite quick and cheap, easily used to throw into an objective for a turn or zip around the board. And hell, this is still an Index army we're talking about here. Lets look at 'nids, their gaunts butcher guardsmen, I know because I fight 'nids all the time. Admech electropriests were super common at my club and do you realize how many infantry squads just one batch of these guys can annihilate? Cultists come in larger numbers and can magically come back at full strength and they can gut guard.

 

 

Sairence: Platitudes don't bring balance, if you act like a doormat, they'll treat you like one. The guard don't deserve this nerf, and it is going to seriously hamper the guard. Our Guardsmen are our backbone, and ripping out a few vertebrae because of this is going to harm fringe style of play and general utility.

[Beams]

I mean, Guardsmen have never been known for durability, and anyone claiming that this edition must not play Guardsmen. At 5 pts, Guardsmen will be okay, but will still be used in soup, and won't contribute as much to guard armies. I can't see my steel legion infantry squads being worth 5 ppm before upgrades

[Expendable_Aquanaut]

Why would they be unavailable? Just wondering, as I honestly have no idea.

 

Also, I don't really care about the one point mark up but I do believe that guardsmen are considerably easier to kill than people think. The lack of horde weapons in my meta is pretty astounding, especially considering all of the guard hate.

 

Ironically I think some of the best anti guard weapons are in the guard codex. Admittedly I haven't run the numbers but from actual experience the punisher gatling cannon on a leman russ or a vulture usually does the Emperors work against hordes pretty well. Also, I know the taurox prime was nerfed almost into oblivion but in a scions force it really helps clear chaff so that your special weapons can land close to something worth shooting. Definitely worth a look. Also as a side note, it benefits from the exploding sixes to hit doctrine!

 

All of those units throw literal buckets of dice down range for pretty reasonable prices. I only ever see the Russ fielded and even then it is used to shoot at other armored targets and fish for sixes.

[Finkmilkana]

Punisher etc do work against hordes, but against guardsmen they are considerable overkill. Guardsmen are best killed by guardsmen (or other troops) or mortars.

[Thorakitai]

Guard are now the only codex to have the entire troops section nerfed. And it's been multiple nerfs for most of it too. The only other codices that have had even a single troop unit nerfed are orks and now chaos (and it's sub codices, to be fair). And let's not forget that Commissars were nerfed so badly that part of the nerf had to be walked back. Really, this is a bit silly when every other army in the game has been treated with velvet gloves, even when being far more offensive to the game, eldar and knights for example.

[MARK0SIAN]

Guard are now the only codex to have the entire troops section nerfed. And it's been multiple nerfs for most of it too. The only other codices that have had even a single troop unit nerfed are orks and now chaos (and it's sub codices, to be fair). And let's not forget that Commissars were nerfed so badly that part of the nerf had to be walked back. Really, this is a bit silly when every other army in the game has been treated with velvet gloves, even when being far more offensive to the game, eldar and knights for example.

You’re forgetting the key reason though, the rules writers like Eldar. :)

 

Guard have been unfairly hit this edition, multiple times but after this one they might finally move onto something else but if you’re waiting for them to nerf Eldar you’d better start believing in reincarnation :)

[duz_]

Gents let remain civil and stay on topic.

 

The commissariat is aware this is a divisive topic and will be monitoring it accordingly.

[Phubar]

I need to explain better my thoughts, my first post was a bit incomplete of explanations :)

 

Ok, ISs are good at generating CPs, spamming heavy/special weapons (although with bs 4+ they are not so scary and the cost of high power and low rate of fire weapon its not cheap) and with orders they are better. But if the problems are those, i think that those things have to be nerfed (even indirectly), because naked ISs are not so good, so naked ones have to be cheap. And those things are really a problem in a PURE guard army? My opinion is no.

• CP PROBLEM: that's why i said that using CPs only on the faction that generated them could be a solution so soups cant use the 5 CPs generated from loyal 32 on their main army and have to use them on IG squads. I think that this will stop the loyal 32 trick.
• ORDERS PROBLEM: ISs are too good with orders? Nerf officers. The added cost its not reflecting their stats but the ability to make other squads better. 10 pt for platoon commander, 20 for company commander. If you think its the same 10 pt increase for having a IS+ order but it is paid only if there is that chance, leaving the option to have cheap screens if you dont want them ordered.
• HEAVY/SPECIAL WEAPONS PROBLEM: in this meta i think that only lascannons and plasmas are a really good choice for ISs, because they will miss half the time anyway but when they hit they hurt. Diluting even more the chance to damage by choosing low str/ap weapons it a waste of points in my opinion. Lascannons are not cheap so spamming them is not easy, plasmas are a different thing but i think that increasing the point of the weapon is more fair that increasing the cost of the wielder.
• STRATAGEMS PROBLEM: ISs could be boosted by stratagems? Yes! But spending 1-2 CPs per turn on ISs is kind of a "waste", becouse you cand spend tham on stratagems that buff other high value units, so this is'n a real problem for me.
• DURABILITY PROBLEM: without spending CPs, ISs are not durable. Anti infantry weapons wound on 3 or 2, the armor save is 5 or 6 and morale is 7 or 6. So not though guys. Not mentioned buffs from other units because the balance has to be done on them, not the ISs. Didnt mentioned cover either because terrain is a feature that even your enemy can use and on top of all, if a player can make a good use of cover it has to be rewarded. Not to mention the fact the cover in 8th is a bit weird and having the whole squad of 10 men all in cover i'ts not always possible.

So, i will say it again because all my discussion is about that: if ISs are good for their add on/buffer buddies, the nerf has to be done on them, not the ISs because naked ISs are not so good (so they have to stay cheap).

[Tokugawa]

Guard are now the only codex to have the entire troops section nerfed. And it's been multiple nerfs for most of it too. The only other codices that have had even a single troop unit nerfed are orks and now chaos (and it's sub codices, to be fair). And let's not forget that Commissars were nerfed so badly that part of the nerf had to be walked back. Really, this is a bit silly when every other army in the game has been treated with velvet gloves, even when being far more offensive to the game, eldar and knights for example.

Ork boyz nerfed? How? They received real codex, new rules, clan traits,strategems. Wouldn't these worth 1pt? Who could refuse to trade these profiles with 1pt?

Now I wonder what GW would do with cost of DKoK infantry squads.

[domsto]

5ppm for the Guardsmen is the worst that could happen.

We only have that one good Troop choice left. The humble Guardsmen isn't worth 5points.

Guard has already a hard time to compete with the other Horde Army's, and this would make it even harder.

My non competitive Fluff list would become 100p more expensive assuming that this will be the only price hike(which i really doubt)

So i am not a big fan of the Idea of getting punished once again for a crime we didn't committed. But the soup abuse of those damn WAAC Players.

But i have a little bit of hope left, looking at the Commissar and how they destroyed him and then fixed their fix. I will hope if Guard gets beaten down this CA maybe they will fix their "fix" in the 2019 Version.

[Wassa]

Where does this leave the Infantry Squad vs Veterans for an extra point?

[Shamansky]

Where does this leave the Infantry Squad vs Veterans for an extra point?

That is not really a relevant question. You can not take vets as troops anymore. So we're stuck with 5pt lasgun holders. 

[sairence]

Meh. If the aim is lots of bodies, Conscripts will likely stay at 4 points. So you can still get your 60 lasguns in tshirts for the same price as now.

 

Guardsmen are the most cost-effective troops choice in the game in my view. There is simply so much flexibility in what they can down with various buffs and doctrines. 1 point more isn't going to change that.

[NatBrannigan]

I can't help but think that people who say orders make Guard Infantry fantastic forget that everyone else has easy access to re-roll hits and wounds auras. Just because our HQ's need to shout "don't miss!" rather than it happening automatically...

 

I'll be fine with 5p per Guardsman if it gets people off our backs. If Ad-mech are the new CP batteries that will help, until suddenly their basic infantry are "over powered" and get a nerf, leaving the really culprit of the CP system untouched.

[noigrim]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[Shamansky]

Meh. If the aim is lots of bodies, Conscripts will likely stay at 4 points. So you can still get your 60 lasguns in tshirts for the same price as now.

 

Guardsmen are the most cost-effective troops choice in the game in my view. There is simply so much flexibility in what they can down with various buffs and doctrines. 1 point more isn't going to change that.

The price of naked Brigade becomes higher by one Infantry squad equipped with Mortar and Grenade Launcher. But it won't get that squad. Instead it will lose something. Would it be more efficient? Very doubtful. So yes, 1 point will change flexibility of the Guard.

[domsto]

Meh. If the aim is lots of bodies, Conscripts will likely stay at 4 points. So you can still get your 60 lasguns in tshirts for the same price as now.

 

Guardsmen are the most cost-effective troops choice in the game in my view. There is simply so much flexibility in what they can down with various buffs and doctrines. 1 point more isn't going to change that.

Even with 5ppm Guardsmen i would never play 4ppm Conscripts. Conscripts aren't worth their 4points in any way. Instead of nerfen normal Guard to 5 points they sould put Conscripts back to 3 and Vets down to 5ppm.

[MrZakalwe]

I can't help but think that people who say orders make Guard Infantry fantastic forget that everyone else has easy access to re-roll hits and wounds auras. Just because our HQ's need to shout "don't miss!" rather than it happening automatically...

The order that makes guard infantry a little too strong imo is 'move move move'. Watching the dreams of my enemies die as my squads move 16"+ in one turn is glorious. Officers ordering themselves to sprint for linebreaker is also amusing. there's also no equivalent aura to FRFSRF, Get back in the fight or forward for the emperor. Others get auras which are situationally better but we get to pick whatever we want from a large variety of buffs.

[Shamansky]

 

I can't help but think that people who say orders make Guard Infantry fantastic forget that everyone else has easy access to re-roll hits and wounds auras. Just because our HQ's need to shout "don't miss!" rather than it happening automatically...

The order that makes guard infantry a little too strong imo is 'move move move'. Watching the dreams of my enemies die as my squads move 16"+ in one turn is glorious. Officers ordering themselves to sprint for linebreaker is also amusing. there's also no equivalent aura to FRFSRF, Get back in the fight or forward for the emperor. Others get auras which are situationally better but we get to pick whatever we want from a large variety of buffs.

 

All those sprint runs are possible only if the opponent is dumb enough to ignore infantry. Otherwise there's no one to run and/or issue orders by the end of the second turn.

[MrZakalwe]

All those sprint runs are possible only if the opponent is dumb enough to ignore infantry. Otherwise there's no one to run and/or issue orders by the end of the second turn.

I've honestly been finding the enemy runs out of models a lot more quickly than I do. Guard are really quite strong at the moment when not playing into Alaitoc/real cheese lists. The list of armies we are stronger than is a lot longer than the number stronger than us.

[sairence]

I can't help but think that people who say orders make Guard Infantry fantastic forget that everyone else has easy access to re-roll hits and wounds auras. Just because our HQ's need to shout "don't miss!" rather than it happening automatically...

 

The "fantastic" part comes from the fact that we don't just shout "don't miss!" We also shout "shoot more", "run faster", "run and then shoot them" etc...whatever we need, when we need it.

 

It's that flexibility that makes orders great, something that no one else has and every marine player gets green with envy over.

[Wassa]

Our orders are great, but they have downsides too.

 

-We have to pay for an officer to give the orders in the first place.

-The officer an usually easily be killed in one turn by a squad of sniper rifles that hit and wound on 3+, then only have a 5+ save, or killed by a psychic power.

-The officer generally has to hide behind terrain, while remaining within 6" limiting there mobility.

-The officer can usually only order 1 or 2 units, and only to those regiments, and only to infantry, whereas other aura abilities affect all units that have a model within 6".

[sairence]

I'd love to play against someone with lots of snipers for a change...it's happened exactly once in 8th so far. And the other stuff can easily be mitigated by by either more officers or vox casters.

 

I'm not arguing that we don't have some hoops to jump through. But I also don't see the need to downplay the effectiveness and impact our infantry can and does make.

[Tirak]

I'd love to play against someone with lots of snipers for a change...it's happened exactly once in 8th so far. And the other stuff can easily be mitigated by by either more officers or vox casters.

 

I'm not arguing that we don't have some hoops to jump through. But I also don't see the need to downplay the effectiveness and impact our infantry can and does make.

 

I play against snipers all the time. Admech can bring them in force and still be useful. Officers ducking behind cover and desperately trying to avoid fire is a big thing that can help contain guard. Still doesn't make Voxs a good choice because they're a 10 point sink (remember sender and receiver need a set), but it certainly is a challenge considering we're T3/5+.

[Feral_80]

To answer the original question: it is an incredibly dull and obtuse solution to problems that lie far beyond AM, and that won't be solved by this nerf. Namely, allies and CPs. 

 

Certainly +1 pt per guardsman is not a crippling hit, but it does hurt most list significantly and I believe it won't be counter-balanced by what I would consider reasonable, ie buffing the many 'poor to unplayable' choices and options we have in the codex.

 

And yes, I am aware that AM is still in the best spot it has been since years. But that is incidental, in fact: I have already lost any good faith in 'new GW' since months, after seeing the incredible mess they have done with 8th edition so soon after its inception. Despite their efforts, they inevitably mess up things. I do not expect any real good to come out of the next publications in terms of game balance (by the way, due to the way it is fixed continuously, printed GW material now equals garbage: I am not buying any of it).