What do you think about 5 pts guardsmen?

[CaptainMarsh]

 

5 PPM for a Guardsmen will not impact any of my lists in a meaningful way. Yes I understand that I am 'losing' 60-120 points depending on what list I am running because of the change, but I've often felt like I could run 1750 and run over my opponents in a 2k game anyway. This is a harmful change to Guard but not one I see as crippling or catastrophic. It is vexing because the changes are happening for causes outside of a Guard army- that much is intensely frustrating. 

 

If you play a non standard list this change is crippling. I like to run lists with flyers because I'm a bit of a sky nut, but with the pounding aircraft and their weapons got last year and now this, I won't be able to support any meaningful skyforce. My standard armies all are going to have to lose either significant portions of the screen or losing a heavy support choice. Given how tight the games can be at my club, that's going to cripple my army.

 

Absolutely this will lead to heartache for certain Guard armies, all because of causes outside of their purview. Guard players weren't the ones Souping and breaking the game. It was Knight players who wanted CP, Blood Angels who wanted CP, other factions who just leeched off of Guard armies. The Loyal 32 was always going to lead Guard into nerf territory because they aren't really going to touch the actual problems, not really, they'll just look at the common denominator and do the minimum work required.

 

And it wasn't your fault or any other Guard player's fault, but alas, Guard players will be the ones paying the price for the sins of other factions. In fluff it is with lives boldly lost, in the game it is in unwarranted changes. And in the vast possibility of unwarranted changes that could have happened, a point increase is far from the worst. I was hearing it could have been 2 points instead, or that orders required a test to work. An Infantry Squad is worth 50 points base on its own, even if it was totally fine at 40 points. It will cause some lists to break; point changes almost always break something, sadly.  It sucks, but when reduced to a simple level of "is X model worth Y points", at 5 PPM the Guardsmen still passes.

[Harrowmaster]

My Cadian infantry will recover but this will completely gut my mechanised Steel Legion, I now have to drop a squad or transport or both.

[FallenSoldiers]

I dont believe the-1 thing. I dont see why you'd do auto hitting orks if you were going to get rid of -1 to hit.

Because they’re not getting rid of -1 to hit for everything, just the -1 to hit chapter tactic. There’d still be lots of things that Orks just couldn’t hit if they didn’t always hit on 6s. Take lootas shooting at a tank that popped smoke. Theyre already at a 6, if they need to move to shoot they’re at a 7. It’s not a fun game if your shooting units can not ever hit anything.

[duz_]

There is an Orks have their own forum

 

Its filled with promethium :tu:

 

Lets stay to topic: 5ppm guardsmen

[Trickstick]

In isolation, 5ppm would be annoying. With other points changes, who knows? Russes lose 10ppm or weapons cost and suddenly my list doesn't even need to change. Until we get the whole picture it is hard to tell. If it is even happening, which at the moment I'm pretty much 50/50 on, maybe tending towards "it is happening".

[librisrouge]

I'm holding out before I dispair about 5 ppm IG until I know the other changes. If chimeras go down, I'm fine. Ditto for many other options.

[HallofStovokor]

I'd love to play against someone with lots of snipers for a change...it's happened exactly once in 8th so far. And the other stuff can easily be mitigated by by either more officers or vox casters.

 

I'm not arguing that we don't have some hoops to jump through. But I also don't see the need to downplay the effectiveness and impact our infantry can and does make.

While I always use voxcasters to increase my range, they are now a serious liability for points. Before I could run a squad with voxcasters and grenade launcher for the same cost of what a squad with no upgrades will cost in chapter approved.

[Wassa]

Oh I hope they reduce Vox casters points even more! Might actually get to use them

[HallofStovokor]

 

 

Then rejoice because the Guard were blessed with the Hellhound which is normally lower than Pask and tank commanders on the target priority and tends to move up between your screen units and cannot kill the commander with it's potential death explosion!

 

Does anybody in this thread genuinely think Guard are weak at the moment?

They are double the points though, and sometimes I want those points for a tempestus battalion or something. I guess you could use artemia pattern but I am convinced that their points are a mistake and don't like using them.

 

I don't think Guard are weak but I think a points change is a band aid for a different problem. Personally, I would tackle CP by making the Warlord's faction the primary faction, and non-primary detachments get reduced cp. Half or something.

That's actually a pretty good solution to the whole loyal 32 problem. I thought that limiting CP to a keyword of faction level might be useful. Knights can only use CP their models generate. Guard battalions could still generate 5 CP in a knight army, but only be used for re-rolls or stratagems for guard. It means that soup lists would need to watch how they spend their CP,but they can still use their loyal 32. I think that would eliminate the usage of soup. Spending 180 points on guardsmen wouldn't be appealing for SM or knights if they could only spend those CP on the Guardsmen. They would still have utility as more bodies are always better, but the couldn't find expensive knight or Blood Angel stratagems.

[Trickstick]

I have heard a few different ideas to curb CP problems, and they all seem flawed when you look at them. Off the top of my head:

 

1: Limit CP from non-warlord faction detachments. This was what I thought up but it has been pointed out that it overly punishes flavourful soup armies, like inquisition/sister/guard hybrids and stuff.

2: The "CP Pools" idea. Seems workable but it would be introducing an amount of bookkeeping that 7th edition was notorious for.

3: Starting with an amount of CP, then losing CP for every detachment taken. For example, start at 20 and brigades cost -3, battallions -5, auxilliary -10 etc. Numbers are just for demonstration of course. This one is interesting, I can't think of problems off the top of my head but I think something was wrong with it.

4: Fixed CP based on points. Simple but a bit of a blunt solution if you ask me. Takes an interesting part out of list building.

 

I think there were more but my point is that solving the CP problem is difficult and something will usually have to be sacrificed to do it.

[domsto]

You Guys really thing we will get some point reductions?

Looking at GW and how they manage this Problem i am very sure Guardsmen aren't the only ones that will become overcosted in this CA.

Remember the Loyal 32 have two parts. The Guardsmen and the Commander. So i expect a price hike on the Commander as well, you know because this 32 Guardsmen cause all the problems in the current Meta. At least this is what most People and i am afraid also GW thinks.

[NatBrannigan]

GW aren't totally to blame here, they now listen to people and try and adjust their game accordingly. I do wish they had maybe a small pool of experts so they can ignore those who make up for a lack of thought with volume, and maybe remove some Ultramarines fans though!

 

I think the change is inevitable myself but as others have said, if it's made up for with points reductions on poor units I'll be content.

[Trickstick]

You Guys really thing we will get some point reductions?

Looking at GW and how they manage this Problem i am very sure Guardsmen aren't the only ones that will become overcosted in this CA.

Remember the Loyal 32 have two parts. The Guardsmen and the Commander. So i expect a price hike on the Commander as well, you know because this 32 Guardsmen cause all the problems in the current Meta. At least this is what most People and i am afraid also GW thinks.

 

I could handle a company commander increase, maybe 5 points? Platoon commanders are often neglected now anyway, it would make them a more attractive option. Personally, I try to make my officer selection make sense. So I take a platoon commander per 30 men and a company for every 2-3 platoons. I guess it's just my old Guard roots showing though, it isn't the best way to do things.

[Level9red]

I'll be interested to see how it effects elysians, who are currently 5 points. I really hope they don't go to 6. After the nerf to Flyers last year and the change to deep strike, they really don't have much going for them...

[MrZakalwe]

For the record though 'the Loyal 32' largely stopped being a thing when they increased the Knight strat costs. It's more common to take a Catachan Brigade now often filling 1k to 1.2k of a 2k list. Times have changed.

[Trickstick]

I'll be interested to see how it effects elysians, who are currently 5 points. I really hope they don't go to 6. After the nerf to Flyers last year and the change to deep strike, they really don't have much going for them...

 

I think it is likely they will be forgotten about. Usually not a good thing, but in this case it may be!

 

I actually heard a rumour of 5pt Guard, which is at least a step above assumption. I mean, it's "a friend of a friend of someone" style, but at least it isn't a guess based on cultists.

[Tirak]

I'll be interested to see how it effects elysians, who are currently 5 points. I really hope they don't go to 6. After the nerf to Flyers last year and the change to deep strike, they really don't have much going for them...

 

If they don't get touched, I'm going to give running my Catachans as Elysians for a while. Free Grenade Launcher on officers is pretty nice. Hopefully they'll give it to sergeants too.

[Trickstick]

From the leaks I've seen, it's 4pt Infantry.

 

Edit: Oh, there are some 5pt guard! Veterans.

[duz_]

Have started a new thread here, to discuss leaked point changes (or lack there of ) 

 

Unless there is any further discussion specifically related to 5ppm guardsmen I will close this thread.