Sisters Preview

[Beams]

If your looking to make the most of exorcists, save a cp reroll for the amount of shots, keep a Cannoness nearby, and try and get vessels off. Reroll the first 1 or 2 that you roll for amount of shots.

 

There was a decent chance that the Exorcist did massive damage (think rolling a 20 on a 20 sided die), and the biggest factor in the amount of damage it did was the amount of shots.

[tvih]

 

 

The old Ministorum Priest is now a Missionary and an HQ choice. There's now a 25 point elite slot Preacher that has a different profile and can't take any wargear but causes Chaos units within 3" to have -1 Ld. Missionaries are also one per detachment.

 

As for the Geminae, here are the changes:

* separate unit (so they can fail a charge and Celestine make it or visa versa)

* if not within 6" of Celestine, they have a 6++ instead of 4++

* they only soak wounds from Celestine on a 2+ if they're within 3" of her.

* the test to soak happens after Celestine rolls to see if she fails her save, so a weapon that does multiple wounds has to have each wound rolled individually.

 

Their profile is, otherwise, unchanged. They still only have 2 wounds.

 

 

Alrighty, thanks. I have three "priest" models - Kyrinov, plasma gun and plasma pistol ones -  so assuming at least one of them still has valid wargear options I guess I should be set for HQs since I can use 3 canonesses (I have more, but for the rule of three).

[tvih]

Russ tank commanders are only 2pts more expensive than a base russ now - for some reason! Like I said above, I’m going to use them for my little my range firepower until/unless we get new tank releases. Bling them up with sisters iconography...

 

Hmm? Just noticed you saying this. Tank commander seems 20 points more expensive than a regular Russ now, not 2, unless I'm missing something here. Still a nice 25-point drop, though, so my planned tournament list with THREE tank commanders just got better!

[taikishi]

This is the beta rules we are all talking about? The ones that we can give feedback on if they don't work? Just checking.....

 

To which I counter: how long have Grey Knights been bad and their problems still not addressed?

[Mekhitar]

Sorry, fat fingers. :)

 

You can also bunker 4++ transports. Which... isn’t nothing? Have all the melta jump out on t2 and pass out the +1 to hit on a 75% or 82% with dialogus, for 2+ to hit for everyone and the wound strat on one choice unit. Remember too you can conga line out your sisters for extra range.

 

It’s not what it was but it’s not absolutely nothing. I’d play them with allies who can operate independently (I am thinking custodes) to park on the other objectives.

 

Sisters went from being marines with a great bag of mobile tricks to worse marines for a few less points, it’s true. And I have a hard time imagining pure sisters working well on the tournament scene. But I think I will still have more fun playing them than I imagined when I got up this morning and read the leaks. Wow was I so disappointed at the time... I’m still sad but I’ll give it a shot and see if I can come up with some good advice.

 

We will start by suggesting the missionary give a zealot aura instead of ignore morale casualties on a 4+, since we already have VH, isnane bravery, the WL trait, the stratagem, and the act of faith to handle morale... overkill much?!

[taikishi]

Sorry, fat fingers.

 

You can also bunker 4++ transports. Which... isn’t nothing? Have all the melta jump out on t2 and pass out the +1 to hit on a 75% or 82% with dialogus, for 2+ to hit for everyone and the wound strat on one choice unit. Remember too you can conga line out your sisters for extra range.

 

It’s not what it was but it’s not absolutely nothing. I’d play them with allies who can operate independently (I am thinking custodes) to park on the other objectives.

 

Sisters went from being marines with a great bag of mobile tricks to worse marines for a few less points, it’s true. And I have a hard time imagining pure sisters working well on the tournament scene. But I think I will still have more fun playing them than I imagined when I got up this morning and read the leaks. Wow was I so disappointed at the time... I’m still sad but I’ll give it a shot and see if I can come up with some good advice.

 

We will start by suggesting the missionary give a zealot aura instead of ignore morale casualties on a 4+, since we already have VH, isnane bravery, the WL trait, the stratagem, and the act of faith to handle morale... overkill much?!

 

Here's a question I still haven't seen answered:

 

Ministorum units don't break convictions, but do the stratagems, etc still require the detachments to be Adepta Sororitas or do they require Adeptus Ministorum? If they require Sororitas and there's no exemption from Ministorum and you want to take Ministorum units you'll have to take at least two detachments to keep your stratagems -- one with the Ministorum units and one with pure Sororitas units.

[Purifying Tempest]

Yeah, I think they worked on morale a bit too much in the beta-dex.  I mean, I know Sisters are stalwart and unshakable, but I'm sure they can streamline the like 6 rules we have for it.

 

Edit: there is a small blurb at the beginning of the army rules section where stuff like objective secured is outlined.  It is a big box that has some Ministorum units in it where it outlines that those units don't break our stuff (Celestine included).  Pretty sure we're going to keep stratagems, warlord traits, and relics for including Ministorum units so long as they're on that list, which are probably the ones presented in he codex.

[taikishi]

Was morale ever a matter? Most of the time, because of how the army plays, we were taking MSU instead of blobs. A 5 model unit at leadership only cares about morale if it loses 3 or 4 models, at which point losing that last model to morale isn't really a big deal. Even if it does stick around, how likely are you to use Spirit of the Martyr on the unit?

[ERJAK]

Was morale ever a matter? Most of the time, because of how the army plays, we were taking MSU instead of blobs. A 5 model unit at leadership only cares about morale if it loses 3 or 4 models, at which point losing that last model to morale isn't really a big deal. Even if it does stick around, how likely are you to use Spirit of the Martyr on the unit?

No it was not. It actually still isn't. Thanks to OoOML, Vessels, and Acts of Faith being...underwhelming... MSU is STILL better, even for infantry spam lists.

 

About AoFs. I posted a thought exercise on dakka that I think everyone should try for themselves. I think it gives some context about how powerful these abilities are.

 

I did a thought exercise for this: 

 

Imagine every unit in the army that can get AoF, got every buff, from all 6 Acts of Faith every turn. What kind of impact would that have on the army? Then add the restrictions back in. 

 

Well, permanent +3 movement would be a decent buff. We'd be around the same speed on foot as Eldar. Useful, strong even. But not incredible. 

The 4++ against Psyker wounds would probably be the biggest improvement. Devastating against psychic armies. 

+1 to hit with all shooting weapons would be solid. Exorcists would still be iffy, but the extra weight of fire would be worth a lot. Very strong. 

Immune to Morale: Not a huge deal, to be honest. Sisters are generally better as MSU, especially in the new book. It'll help occasionally but isn't that much of a gain. 

Being able to constantly pile in and attack twice would be strong. Repentia and Canonesses would see a lot of combat. Celestine would be worth 160pts. Nice bonus, though not game breaking. 

Resurrect one dead model per turn. Your opponent probably wouldn't leave this one to chance, same as people do with Necrons. Still, fairly strong. 

 

Even having all 6 on every unit all game...it still doesn't feel like they'd be broken, to be honest? Like, they're good, but I'm still not really scared of that army as anything not running a ton of psykers. Better survivability, better offense, a moderate bonus to mobility. I'd say at that point they'd probably be close to where knight Castellan lists are. They'd need a nerf, but it would be small and likely wouldn't affect things like Seraphim or Celestians. 

 

Now add Faith points in. The average 2k SoB army will probably have 12-15 points with OoOML. We already hit on 3+ so it's not like stacking +1 to hit helps us much. The Passion and the Healing/Resurrection ability would need to be limited to one per unit but that would be it. I would call it a fair system right there. Vessels would be a good way to for skilled player to maximize their Faith points, but would be costly at 3 CP. 

 

Limit each ability to once per turn and now...it's honestly not that great. You probably won't use all the points you have over the course of a game, and getting +1 on a unit is pretty meh. Vessels will do SOME heavy lifting here, but you'll never use it on about half of the AoFs. The system at this point, seems pretty tacked on and like you're really not losing much just ignoring it. 

 

Adding a die-roll makes it feel bad. Making it so that if you fail the Die roll you can't pay another point to try again makes it feel WAY worse and means you're definitely ending just about every game with extra Faith points.Vessels is a 2CP Strat AT BEST here. 

 

 

[taikishi]

Yeah, I think they worked on morale a bit too much in the beta-dex.  I mean, I know Sisters are stalwart and unshakable, but I'm sure they can streamline the like 6 rules we have for it.

 

Edit: there is a small blurb at the beginning of the army rules section where stuff like objective secured is outlined.  It is a big box that has some Ministorum units in it where it outlines that those units don't break our stuff (Celestine included).  Pretty sure we're going to keep stratagems, warlord traits, and relics for including Ministorum units so long as they're on that list, which are probably the ones presented in he codex.

 

The only thing I've seen officially is that they don't break Order convictions just like Servitors don't break Chapter Tactics. That said, Servitors still have the Adeptus Astartes keyword, as well as Blood Angels or whatever other keywords are needed to keep them from breaking detachments for stratagems. At last look, Jacobus, Preachers, Missionaries, DCA, Crusaders, Penitent Engines and Arco-flaggelants don't have the Adepta Sororitas keyword. If the stratagems are Adeptus Ministorum, then there's no problem. If there's no explicit wording for the detachments beyond Order convictions, then two detachments are needed.

[Mekhitar]

If it does turn out that way, I think we can provide the feedback to get it fixed.

 

I’m wondering if we can get penitent engines to a 5++ with Celestine starting the buff or if we will be limited to 6++. I do have 3 of the things.

[CaptainMarsh]

I'll keep in mind that I'm not allowed to have any manner of strong feelings unless they are positive. Noted.

[ERJAK]

Lots of tears here for something people have been clamoring for for years. It’s just a beta codex. They have to reduce the army down to its foundation so it can be built up effectively.

 

Going full rage and doom at this stage is a major disservice to the process; test the army as is now, provide calm and effective feedback, and reap the benefits when the actual codex drops in a year.

 

Sheesh.

The process? What process? This is the first time they've ever done anything even remotely like this. They're flying by the seat of their pants as much as we are.

 

Also, we're on forums. This is where the anger SHOULD be. When you actually email them is where Calm and Effective come in.

 

And the problem is, we're stuck with this book for at least a year, unless you can convince tournaments to let you run the Index rules.

 

So, to anyone else, does it feel like they designed the entire AoF system around the old AoFs before going 'oh no, that's much too strong!' and nerfing them way to hard without changing the system around them to fit the new AoFs.

[Mekhitar]

I'd be a lot happier with AoF if any given Act could be used more than once a turn.

[taikishi]

Lots of tears here for something people have been clamoring for for years. It’s just a beta codex. They have to reduce the army down to its foundation so it can be built up effectively.

 

Going full rage and doom at this stage is a major disservice to the process; test the army as is now, provide calm and effective feedback, and reap the benefits when the actual codex drops in a year.

 

Sheesh.

 

So when are Grey Knights going to get fixed?

If it does turn out that way, I think we can provide the feedback to get it fixed.

 

I’m wondering if we can get penitent engines to a 5++ with Celestine starting the buff or if we will be limited to 6++. I do have 3 of the things.

 

If they don't have Shield of Faith, Celestine can't buff it. If they do, she buffs it to a 5++ as does the Warlord trait. The pair can be stacked for a 4++, but that's 205 points of models just to buff SoF, all of which have to be within 6" of both buffers. I hope you're planning on buffing more than just Penitent Engines for that cost.

[Mekhitar]

They changed Celestine’s buff? She used to hand out a 6++ to ministorum and guard units, or buff the sisters by +1. Did the first part of that go away?

 

 

ETA: yes, celery and the canoness would be advancing up in a mech transport ball.

[Commander Dawnstar]

Has anyone heard anything specific regarding potential points cost changes for units?

 

I'm wondering because Repentia have always seemed expensive at 17 points given their lack of resilience, and Chapter Approved now allows for 15 point Sisters of Silence with Greatblades and 20 point Company Veterans with Power Swords and Storm Shields. Certainly there's more possibilities now to actually give Repentia a half-decent Invulnerable Save, but if they haven't got something of an overhaul it seems a bit much for one Wound Toughness 3 models with a 6++ to now have the same base cost as Primaris Intercessors.

[taikishi]

They changed Celestine’s buff? She used to hand out a 6++ to ministorum and guard units, or buff the sisters by +1. Did the first part of that go away?

 

 

ETA: yes, celery and the canoness would be advancing up in a mech transport ball.

 

This is from War of Sigmar:

 

https://i.ibb.co/zXR2rVJ/Celestinecut4.jpg

 

She still gives Ministorum and Militarum units without Shield of Faith a 6++ but doesn't give them Shield of Faith. Indominatable Will only increase Shield of Faith saves, so it's 6++ only, no 5++.

 

As for points changes, based on the two video reviews I've seen + the battle rep I watched, the only points changes are Celestine and Exorcists. Unit-wise, everything else appears to have remained the same.

[ERJAK]

Bob from War-of-Sigmar comes through once again with some actually good rumors to soothe the soul a little:

 

-Can't say too much but it could be the biggest release eveeeeer ! (or as big as the Primaris release) 
-I have been told that new range is exciting and not limited to concept already existing.

[taikishi]

Bob from War-of-Sigmar comes through once again with some actually good rumors to soothe the soul a little:

 

-Can't say too much but it could be the biggest release eveeeeer ! (or as big as the Primaris release) 

-I have been told that new range is exciting and not limited to concept already existing.

 

And here's where I become the enemy. If we're getting more than what's in the Codex, we should see it. Play testing an incompletely list doesn't do anyone any good because we're not seeing the full picture TO play test properly. If all they want us to PT is AoF, then they should say so.

[ERJAK]

Has anyone heard anything specific regarding potential points cost changes for units?

 

I'm wondering because Repentia have always seemed expensive at 17 points given their lack of resilience, and Chapter Approved now allows for 15 point Sisters of Silence with Greatblades and 20 point Company Veterans with Power Swords and Storm Shields. Certainly there's more possibilities now to actually give Repentia a half-decent Invulnerable Save, but if they haven't got something of an overhaul it seems a bit much for one Wound Toughness 3 models with a 6++ to now have the same base cost as Primaris Intercessors.

There was a video where a guy went through every model in the book. No significant changes outside of the Game wide changes to weapon costs and Celestine. Even the Gemini are still 25pts. No real major warscroll changes for anything not Celestine either, though Arcos did go up 1 AP and the Exorcist went to D6 damage.

 

Oh yeah, repentia and Penitent engines went down 2 and I believe 20 or so respectively. Don't quote me on the penitent engine changes though. Even with AoF AND the Invul buff. Arco Flaggellants are still better.

 

Bob from War-of-Sigmar comes through once again with some actually good rumors to soothe the soul a little:

 

-Can't say too much but it could be the biggest release eveeeeer ! (or as big as the Primaris release) 

-I have been told that new range is exciting and not limited to concept already existing.

 

And here's where I become the enemy. If we're getting more than what's in the Codex, we should see it. Play testing an incompletely list doesn't do anyone any good because we're not seeing the full picture TO play test properly. If all they want us to PT is AoF, then they should say so.

 

Not my enemy. I absolutely agree. Especially considering what's currently in the codex is not intended to be played in full release.

[Ficinus]

I think that Striking Scorpion 82 said that Repentia were down to 15 points.  A drop but not astronomical.  I'm definitely keen on trying them out with the Blood Rose conviction.  I think they'll be decent shock troops.  I'm just not sure how necessary or useful a canoness giving them a 5++ will be.  I really want to see if a unit of them will be able to eat a knight.  I hate knights.

[Aqui]

 

Bob from War-of-Sigmar comes through once again with some actually good rumors to soothe the soul a little:

 

-Can't say too much but it could be the biggest release eveeeeer ! (or as big as the Primaris release) -I have been told that new range is exciting and not limited to concept already existing.

 

 

And here's where I become the enemy. If we're getting more than what's in the Codex, we should see it. Play testing an incompletely list doesn't do anyone any good because we're not seeing the full picture TO play test properly. If all they want us to PT is AoF, then they should say so.

If what this Bob has said is true, then yeah, that is bemusing to say the least.

[taikishi]

It's more than bemusing, Aqui. It's something that would give those of us who are angry some hope. Instead, "super seekrets because we wanna surprise you".

 

Having done play testing, that's fine for a TCG because you're usually having to bring out new stuff every 3-4 months but the play testers still see and test the stuff 6-9 months before it comes out. If this is supposed to be a full release in 9-10 months that's beyond what the codex lists, we need to see it NOW to find problems with it NOW.

[Aqui]

My last post was understated, but yes, you're quite right. I'm currently struggling to have anything good to feel after all the going to and fro on the stuff we have seen :(

 

That said, I'm a Sisters player for life. Whatever happens in the future, it will not stop me from playing them.