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[EmperorGTank]

The biggest problem I see with the Vessel of the Emperor stratagem is that the one HQ choice we have who could easily set it up for us (Celestine) cannot benefit from any buffs to her AoF in the army. So if you want to let's say give your line of melta dominions up front divine guidance so that way they all hit on 2+ at least, you are stuck on a 50/50 chance of it going off. 

 

As upset and disappointed as I am though, I am still determined to find a way to make lists that, while not as efficient as what another army can bring, will still keep us nominally competitive. Perhaps multiple detachments of different orders is one way to go such as a melee vanguard led by a priest with OoBR with a decent amount of melee options such as Repentia or Arco-Flagellants along with a battalion of OoEC with 2 Canonesses, Rets, BSS, and Exorcists. Take the book on one Canoness and have the 2nd with either the brazier or litanies depending on your anti-psyker needs, and make one your warlord for Indomitable unless you only have a few Faith points, then make it Celestine for the additional faith farm. Celestine herself is in the normal outrider detachment, which is also OoEC with your doms, immos, and seraphim. The least we can do is make sure those few AoF's that are important (even if insignificant) like the shooting and melee one have the best chance of going off. It will not be an amazing army by any standard but it will at least help us continue to do what we do well along with getting a melee element that is more than one model and actually has a chance to do something. The points drop we did receive may at least help our pure sisters forces be slightly more jack of all trades. Call me a foolish idealist/shameless optimist, but I desperately want to find something to salvage from this, I have waited over 10 years for a codex of any kind beyond the WH one, and I know many here have waited far longer.

[Drider]

I've been giving it some thought and I think any semblance of the old meta is dead. No more one-trick-pony glass-cannon play style trying to catch people off guard and utterly falling flat if they know what to expect or you don't get first turn. I think what the beta codex presents us with is a new pigeon hole to play into that is over all stronger through durability and more flexible over all, as multiple styles of the same theme will be viable for a mono build. 

 

 

 

The core that we're building around is the stacked SoF bonus. From there you can build your castle a few different ways but all of them boil down to holding the mid field and playing objectives rather than trying to deliver an unrecoverable turn 1 hammer blow to your opponent. 

 

 

 

 

Builds:

 

As far as top tier list it's goes, it's going to be a Castellan soup with the option of subbing out SM smash captains for Big C and Smash Canonesses and the option of subbing the loyal 32 for either sisters brigade or double batt and/or helverins. I've played variations of this with the index and I have to say, it is exceptionally effective and exceptionally boring. Only now the beta dex buffs it to have very good durability and very good psychic denial. You've got the the AoF for a FNP vs mortal wounds in the psychic phase, so that automatically goes on the unit that will take the most smites, then you have the Brazier relic side (boarded for 1CP) for real deny the witch rolls, and if you don't think you can roll higher, you just pop purity of faith and deny on a 4+. 

 

As far as mono builds go I think they can be grouped into a few flavours in order of how effective i think they may be:

Mom's Spaghetti and Meatballs: Stacked SoF horde sisters castle pushed into the midfield with either some larger troop squads(for obsec) or seraphim(for the extra +1 to SoF and extra movement) to spaghetti out and grab objectives. Add in a few strong melee elements standing stag to spice things when things get close and personal. 

 

 

The invulnerable parking lot: stacked SoF immo/repressor spam. Having celestine and a cannoness AoFed to move 9"+advance isn't going to be a huge movement hindrance from getting where you want to be.

 

 

 

Everything else.

 

 

 

 

As far as individual units go, there's some obvious winners, some obvious losers, some who look like losers but actually have a new niche and some who might have looked like winners but actually aren't.

 

Winners:

Repentia, HUGE WINNERS stacking SoF actually makes these girls a viable pick up simply due to the fact that they will get a save! A 7"+3" move, a potential 36 reroll hits, s8 -2 2d attacks and fight twice and do a mortal wound when they die. They still have the ongoing issue of needing excessive supporting units to get the most out of, but if your bringing one unit, you might as well bring another seeing as you've already paid the support tax.

Arco-flags, much the same as above, stupid number of attacks due to their strat, but they do have certain draw backs that would need to be played around.

SB Doms,  their strat is good.anything with multiple SB really but 5x SB dom squads gets the most bang for your buck.

Canoness, relics, warlord traits and few other small things.

BSS, transports all benefit greatly from stacking SoF

 

 

Losers:

 

Rets HB rets suffer too much from loss of double shooting and the +1 to hit does little to make up for it. Mathed out if you had 3 units double shooting and 3 units with the +1 to hit, they now kill an average of 6 MEQ less than before. Sadly the other weapon options for them don't really stand out all that well, there might be a niche for a 6+ girl unit with 4 HF and a combi melta as a Holy Trinity squad, but it's quite an unwieldy tool.

The Little Gs: Sorry, but the twins aren't worth taking anymore and will most likely only be seeing the table as a 'counts as' seraphim superior.

 

Largely unaffected:
Mistress/priests, still gonna want one if you're taking repentia, which the more i think about it the more likely it seems, but if you don't then you wont, simple as that.

Melta doms, the repressor meta picked up a small buff with a potential 4++ but melta is still lack luster at doing the job it's supposed to do regardless of buffs.

Exorcist, it's still meh and in need of a redesign.

Celestians, they got all the same buffs as BSS but sadly probably aren't worth taking unless your trying to fill up elite slots and already have your mandatory Dialogus.

 

losers who aren't losers.

Celestine, she's got a new niche and a new play style. She'll be standing stag for your army and stacking your SoF. She's not going to be your warlord and she's not going to be your go to beat stick anymore and if you try it it's going to do nothing but end badly. She's still a mandatory pick up. Tempting to run her solo and leave the Little Gs at home.

Seraphim, the loss of double move crippled the inferno pistol build and +3" move doesn't cut it. having a stacked 3++ means these girls are going to be more durable though, so it might be worth bringing those inferno pistols along anyway. Their new niche is going to be for them to grab what ever objective you want and spaghetti back to your castle to catch those SoF buffs.

 

Winners who aren't winners

Penitent Engines. The auto double fight is great, it's fantastic, on average 3 of them will delete what ever they touch. Problem is, they are still a massive glass cannon and will most likely never make it to their intended target. They look scary, they ARE scary, and most people will realize that they have to die, especially when they figure out that they're t6 w7 4+/6++/5+++ standing next to the rest of your army who all have a 3+/4++ or 3++. I think they got a step in the right direction with the 5 up FNP and the points drop but i don't think it's quite enough to make them viable, they really need to have a bit more movement, 10" move and/or an advance & shoot/charge stratagem.

[Purifying Tempest]

I kinda like that overall, Drider, but I think you're a little off on just a couple of things:

 

Priests are overall unchanged, but became more valuable to the army because Repentia and Arcos are better, Repentia in particular.  They also bring a cheaper HQ choice to the army, which can play niche roles.

 

Exorcist should go into the "winner" category.  The damage was rightly fixed to 1d6, which is roughly double the current output, and the points were dropped by another 10.  Never forget it is also T8, the thing is a brick and will take a lot of effort to remove... even before you do anything to shield it with Shield of Faith, if you choose to.

 

Celestians should probably be losers.  Even though by definition they were "largely unaffected", the unit is still lost.  And the fix for them is staring right in GWs face.  Give them melee weapon options and give us Power Armored melee bodyguards for the Canoness.  It is a hole in the army, and it wouldn't be something Celestians haven't done before in the past.  Failing to fix this unit and give it a purpose was a BIG loss for the beta-dex.

 

Mostly everything else is right where I would critique them, but maybe for different reasons.

[Mekhitar]

Don’t forget about relative strengths. Between the formation and the points drop, I can see russes making a return, and exorcists are now pretty good at wrecking a russ without having to clear the screen.

 

I think between fight twice, bloody Rose, and 4++, repentia could be in a fantastic spot. I’m actually really sad that I don’t own any!

[Montford]

Winner: Stormbolter Dominions; a 60 point Primaris execution squad for 1 CP.

[Drider]

I'd argue the point about priest, you only ever took them because you wanted to buff other units. There's nothing about the priest that makes me want to take it on it's own. As far as the slot change goes, maybe but i think i'd still rather hit Ro3 cap on Canonesses first before taking a priest.

Even with D6D the exorcist is still to swinging in terms of damage output. i'd rather take melta doms or MM rets to average the number of shots and they all suck at killing what they're supposedly supposed to be shot at.

 

Celestians sucked before, they still suck now. so no change imo. :P

[Ficinus]

How are people getting a 4++ on Repentia? I know that it's with a canoness with the warlord trait and Celestine, but are people going to throw their warlord and Celestine into the midst of the enemy to give a suicide unit a bit more longevity? Are you planning on using repentia as a counter-assault unit?

 

4++ on repentia sounds great, but I don't think it's going to be very practical on the table. Just load 8 of them in a rhino with a mistress and a preacher and send them off to explode something and then die.

[Purifying Tempest]

That's what I plan on doing with my Repentia, Ficinus.  I think getting anything else to go along with them is just kinda... too much.  Too many eggs in that basket.  Mistress and Priest buffs should be sufficient to handle just about any task that's not a Knight.

 

Celestine looks to be more in that Counter-Charge role now.  That or an interceptor to keep opponents out of more valuable targets.  She's also a great warlord that is nigh unkillable.  Play more conservative with her and use her as a defensive force multiplier... and pretty much deny Slay the Warlord every game, and ensuring you have a late game mobility unit that can hide behind significantly weakened units to force fire away from her as she snags objectives.

[Drider]

My thoughts on it are if you're going to do it, go all in, repentia, 3x canoness, celestine all getting stuck into combat, with a priest, mistress and +1AoF for back up, 3cp down on vessels and go for double attack. it is the most powerful combo we have in our codex. I honestly think OotBR is the way to go. The others just don't bring any more killing power and our shooting is so lack luster you might as well ally it out to a castellan rather than bring any of our own larger than a storm bolter.

[Mekhitar]

I play a lot of chaos with khorne zerkers, and repentia have many of the same benefits to offer. Playing them with a mistress in a rhino is going to feel a lot like my apostle/zerkers/rhino teams. I’m actually very excited to employ the tactics I learned with one into games with the other. If you play your fight phase right and pin things appropriately, they don’t -have- to be a suicide unit. They can be quite durable... but not if they are sitting on only a 6++.

 

I might be tempted to make the mistress my warlord for the +1SoF bubble. Celestine is mobile enough to be present when I need her - and to draw fire from the repentia thanks to her well-deserved reputation. That’s what I am excited about.

 

Melta do great against tanks, but it can be hard to get within 12” of a russ.

[ERJAK]

For Drider. I don't think 4++ is good enough for our horde list to work, even outside of how much I hate the idea of Sisters of Battle getting pigeonholed into YET ANOTHER infantry horde army.

 

The blob's offense isn't strong enough, even with vessels to be a significant threat, and the weapons that have always been the best at killing sisters(heavy bolters, assault cannons, anything tau shoot, plague spitters, etc, wouldn't be hitting the invul.

 

Trying to bring melee with it as well just means that any army that doesn't have melee will be even better against you and will make the lost harder to play.

 

While the 4++ infantry horde ends up being more 'best used to body block for a better army' than bad, the invul parking lot is unlikely to be any good at all. Having played mech Sisters for a long time I can tell you that a 4++ isn't gonna keep stuff alive if your enemy really wants it dead. We also suffer from wacky range banding and again, just subpar offense in general.

 

At the end of the day, they seem to be trying to make us a blob gunline (which is stupid in its own rights) by giving us a 4++ and a Ghetto Chapter master buff for 3CP per turn.

[ERJAK]

My thoughts on it are if you're going to do it, go all in, repentia, 3x canoness, celestine all getting stuck into combat, with a priest, mistress and +1AoF for back up, 3cp down on vessels and go for double attack. it is the most powerful combo we have in our codex. I honestly think OotBR is the way to go. The others just don't bring any more killing power and our shooting is so lack luster you might as well ally it out to a castellan rather than bring any of our own larger than a storm bolter.

It's a good combo on paper, but there are a solid 2 dozen ways this setup could fail OUTSIDE of normal melee risks.

 

Just getting the positioning right would be a nightmare, let alone finding a target/targets big enough and valuable enough to be worth expending that many resources.

 

I apologize for how negative these posts are, but I really am hoping GW is being a fly on the wall and seeing just how difficult, flawed, and ultimately lacking even our best combos are.

[Mekhitar]

The chapter master vs vessels buff is the most telling thing going on here, IMO, and definitely will be a point in my feedback.

[ERJAK]

So the list I'm going to be testing is based around A) building something that, while not anywhere near optimized, could theoretically resemble our *pfft* 'competitive' lists in the future. And B) testing out as many different unit types as possible.

 

OoBR Brigade with:

Canoness 5++ trait

Canoness 2d6 deny relic

Celestine

6×3 SB BSS squads

SB doms

Melta Doms

10 Seraphim with 4 HF

3xExorcist

2xHBRets

8 Repentia

Dialogus

Preacher

Mistress

3ximmoflamer immo

Rhino

 

Depending on final points I might add a missionary so I can get an Ebon Chalic Outrider with the second Canoness. And split it into two battalions.

The chapter master vs vessels buff is the most telling thing going on here, IMO, and definitely will be a point in my feedback.

I'd trade the whole AoF system for a Lady Shrike at this point.

[tvih]

 

I really feel like the AoF should be the prime focus of SoB. Honestly I'd be 100% ok with SoB getting really non-standard having zero stratagems and just better AoF.

 

The thing of it is though, that AoF ARE in effect stratagems, all the more since they use a similar point system now. So I'm not sure it'd be all that "non-standard". Main difference seems to be the unreliability of AoF. As it stands now it does seem a bit redundant that have two such similar systems overlapping.

[Slasher956]

The only point to it would be the ability to use the same thing multiple times.... but the rumours* say each AoF can be attempted once per turn!

 

 

*I really want the book so I can see for my self here... 

[Slasher956]

So other leaks point to you being able to remove up to 6 objective cards from your deck before the game starts... now as this will make the whole game more mobile (in theory) it does suggest why such a open buff of being able to double move (with advance on both giving our infantry a potential 24" move) has been removed.

 

Some of the rules that are changing may not make sense until we have read ALL the new missions and rules!

[Commander Dawnstar]

Does anyone know with any certainty if it's going to be possible to field Taddeus and Vorne without breaking our faction rules and such?

 

They both have the Ministorum keyword so I would assume there wouldn't be a problem, but I thought I'd heard something about there being a specific list of units that we could field without interfering with our faction rules (?)

 

Edit:

 

To answer my own question: No, it doesn't seem like you can field them without losing Convictions. You can't even put them in another pure Ministorum Vanguard Detachment as none of the Ministorum units take up Elites slots when a Priest is present (and Taddeus has the relevent keyword).

[Montford]

 

 

I really feel like the AoF should be the prime focus of SoB. Honestly I'd be 100% ok with SoB getting really non-standard having zero stratagems and just better AoF.

 

The thing of it is though, that AoF ARE in effect stratagems, all the more since they use a similar point system now. So I'm not sure it'd be all that "non-standard". Main difference seems to be the unreliability of AoF. As it stands now it does seem a bit redundant that have two such similar systems overlapping.

 

 

Think of it this way:

 

1- In a sense we get double the Command Points

 

2- Armies which can get a CP from an opponent using a CP cannot do that when we use a Faith Point

[Montford]

For those who want to field Brigades it looks like the most inexpensive way to fill out an Elite choice requirent is to take a Squad of two Crusaders (26 points).  They also still have the Acts of Faith ability and do not invalidate Order if what I've been told is correct.

[taikishi]

The only point to it would be the ability to use the same thing multiple times.... but the rumours* say each AoF can be attempted once per turn!

 

 

*I really want the book so I can see for my self here... 

 

It's not a rumor, people were reading it

.

[taikishi]

Does anyone know with any certainty if it's going to be possible to field Taddeus and Vorne without breaking our faction rules and such?

 

They both have the Ministorum keyword so I would assume there wouldn't be a problem, but I thought I'd heard something about there being a specific list of units that we could field without interfering with our faction rules (?)

 

what you're looking for? Thing of it is, he says "They won't disrupt detachments", but verbatum he reads that they won't disrupt Convictions. Nothing about detachments for stratagems.

[Commander Dawnstar]

Thanks. Neither of them is specifically on that list so I don't think it really matters. A little bit unfortunate but not the end of the world.

[taikishi]

I'm listening to the FtN podcast now and it's painful listening to GoatBoy think that some of this stuff is actually good.

[Atrus]

Yeah its funny and cringey when people start going on about it but have no prior knowledge of it. Spot the non-sisters players.

 

"So the exorcist is unchanged, its still strength 8, ap-4 and d6 damage, so nothing new there." *eye twitch * i am equally joyous at the news and cringing so hard.