Sisters Preview

[Purifying Tempest]

Not sure the tanks are going to be tasked with roaming forth to secure glory for the Sisters.  Probably the other way around :)  And the 3+ BS of a tank commander probably helps get more mileage out of their intended function: blast the enemy to bits from afar.

 

I'm really hoping the Exorcist tank starts filling that role in, nicely.  Half the shots as a LRBC (2d6 grinding advance shots), +1 BS, double the damage, double the AP, and a bit of a point decrease in exchange for no sponsons and such.  Will have to play to tell, but I am hoping the revamped Exorcist can provide that same'ish punch.

[Mekhitar]

It also works well with the new Vigilus formation - 3 mordian tanks can provide their own overwatch on 4+ rerollables, which is fantastic. In a sup comm you only need to take 3 tanks rather than 4, and they can order themselves to reroll 1s or strike and shroud.

 

But this isn’t a thread about russes! I would love to replace them wth exorcists or some hypothetical future melta tank, but the d6 can be so painful.

 

They also can’t be swapped out for anti horde, or the range of a battle cannon... but the real thing is the AP-4 is frequently wasted. Many enemy targets for the exorcist are rocking invulns - like knights - so you pay for a weapon quality you don’t also use.

 

If I had the exorcists I would probably try 3, but I’m afraid they will just get tagged by orcs or cultists, hugged all game, and then just end up as fire shields for a large obsec unit in my backfield. Alas a great way to lose a game very quick. (I play ITC). It’s the overwatch ability of the naked russ that I really like.

[ERJAK]

It also works well with the new Vigilus formation - 3 mordian tanks can provide their own overwatch on 4+ rerollables, which is fantastic. In a sup comm you only need to take 3 tanks rather than 4, and they can order themselves to reroll 1s or strike and shroud.

 

But this isn’t a thread about russes! I would love to replace them wth exorcists or some hypothetical future melta tank, but the d6 can be so painful.

 

They also can’t be swapped out for anti horde, or the range of a battle cannon... but the real thing is the AP-4 is frequently wasted. Many enemy targets for the exorcist are rocking invulns - like knights - so you pay for a weapon quality you don’t also use.

 

If I had the exorcists I would probably try 3, but I’m afraid they will just get tagged by orcs or cultists, hugged all game, and then just end up as fire shields for a large obsec unit in my backfield. Alas a great way to lose a game very quick. (I play ITC). It’s the overwatch ability of the naked russ that I really like.

Generally speaking, for the first 2 turns or so they'll be screened by the rest of the army, simply due to the benefits of starting the with 2+4++ on the entire force(cover strat). Then all you have to do is play russian roullette with them for as long as they survive enemy shooting, and hope your enemy ignores objectives in favor of joyfully munching through T3 models.

 

If everything goes perfect and your opponent overextends, it might not be too bad? I feel like that's the deepest praise I can give the new book.

[CrusherJoe]

I'm listening to the FtN podcast now and it's painful listening to GoatBoy think that some of this stuff is actually good.

 

Oh, boy. I know Thomas (Goatboy) personally. He's a solid dude and I have nothing negative to say about him -- and he's really good with certain armies and builds, but when he's out of his comfort zone...it shows. Few things aggravate me like non-Sisters players trying to polish the beta turd. It reminds me of the saying, "Don't piss on me and tell me it's raining."

[CrusherJoe]

 

An IG supreme command, to fill our long range shooting gap.

 

...that's not a bad idea, but for the points you might as well take a Castellan and be done with it. It also gives you opponent something to REALLY worry about instead of Sisters...

[A.T.]

It also works well with the new Vigilus formation - 3 mordian tanks can provide their own overwatch on 4+ rerollables, which is fantastic. In a sup comm you only need to take 3 tanks rather than 4, and they can order themselves to reroll 1s or strike and shroud.

Have to play them though, and the penitents, repentia rush with and without S8, celestian heavy and so forth. A year (well, six months or so) of playing less than the best to give feedback as to why.

[Mekhitar]

I have lots of experience with russ commanders ;) and yes, a castellan would be an excellent substitute, except I refuse to field them out of general protest that they exist. Plus, if the enemy tries to nuke a russ instead of a penitent engine with one of their long range anti tank guns...

 

That being said the new sisters beta dex has some of the best psychic protection out there, so enemy lists that rely on powers to kill a knight find themselves in a bit of trouble.

 

I think there is a good whole thread of what best to ally with the sisters beta dex, and it is “relevant”, but I think too we might stray way, way off topic in chasing it down, so maybe let’s return to talking about the preview and start that thread up separately after CA is officially released.

 

I heard that Geminae are specifically excluded from taking warlord traits - this probably means they’ve retained the character keyword, huh?

[CrusherJoe]

I don't know how long the feedback window is going to be. One thing CA has demonstrated is GW's lead time is for large print runs books. If what's been said is true CA2018 was sent to the printers before Codex: Imperial Knights was released (which is why it and Orks aren't touched in it). Codex: Imperial Knights was released on June 9th. I believe it was stated at the Vigilus Weekender that Sisters codex would release in Oct/Nov 2019 -- so with the 6 months of lead time GW will probably only be able to take feedback through April/May 2019, and to be safe I would say the more feedback provided well in advance of then would be better. We have no idea if there's going to be anything in Big FAQ 3 or if there will be playtest versions/updates (though if they were truly going through an active playtest process there would be several iterations before a final version was shipped...but I digress).

 

Long story short: Provide detailed feedback as you quickly as you can.

[Slasher956]

I've said it before.... I've never expected the feedback window to go past April, long enough for a few players to get games in and a tournament.....then the Devs to go through it, see if they agree before making any changes and then internally testing them before sending the books to the printers Augst /Sept at the latest*

 

*Minor changes which is all stats, points & unit rules would be can be done up to the last minute.... stuff like the art work and back ground will be mainly done by now with the next couple of months the book being in the hands of the layout designers.

[dracpanzer]

I would say they need to update that timeline to match the release of the new fig line as well.

[CaptainMarsh]

I heard that Geminae are specifically excluded from taking warlord traits - this probably means they’ve retained the character keyword, huh?

 

I would be excited if this were the case

[ERJAK]

 

 

I'm listening to the FtN podcast now and it's painful listening to GoatBoy think that some of this stuff is actually good.

Oh, boy. I know Thomas (Goatboy) personally. He's a solid dude and I have nothing negative to say about him -- and he's really good with certain armies and builds, but when he's out of his comfort zone...it shows. Few things aggravate me like non-Sisters players trying to polish the beta turd. It reminds me of the saying, "Don't piss on me and tell me it's raining."

I knew as soon as I saw that post go up that it wasn't something I could listen to.

 

People tend to be more positive when being recorded, a lot of the major issues with the book aren't immediately obvious, none of them knew the army before so they have no frame of reference.

 

I just hope no one at GW watches it and is like 'GJ guys, guess it's fine after all!'

[ERJAK]

Reading through Mekhitar's post, he does bring up a good point, our psychic protection is actually obscenely strong. We're better than Sisters of Silence and the Culexus together in some cases.

 

Being able to make just about everything 2d6 deny, 4+++, plus just 'noping' a power on a 4+ is fantastic.

 

The only weakness is one of the problems we run into everywhere: We're so CP hungry we make Knights look like they got a lap-band.

[Purifying Tempest]

That's why making valid comparisons is pretty vital.

 

Holy Trinity is like Veterans of the Longwar, only FAR worse for these reasons.

 

Blessed Bolts is great, but not overpowered because of these reasons.  Note: Be prepared to make this argument, the salt over this Stratagem is real.  People seem to be of the opinion that we can squad Stormbolters up to 20 or we have access to Doom and equally stupid thoughts.

 

The +3" movement is too weak compared across the environment because these things exist... go off to list how many armies, army wide, can scream across the dead-mans-land and land assaults turn 1.

 

Show them how it sucks in execution, not in design.  Saying Celestine was nerfed won't get any thought.  Showing how Celestine was harmed in play, and asking for a thoughtful pass of her or suggesting changes would more likely get the changes we want passed.  I'm still struggling to see how Celestine was hurt outside of the blanket change to AoF system.  Well, and here Miraculous Teleportation... err... Intervention.

[taikishi]

She was also hurt by the Geminae becoming a separate unit and visa versa. They can now fail charges she makes, leaving their ability to protect her behind. They can also make charges she fails, losing out on some punch. The "Faith point on a 4+ but only if your Warlord" is a far cry from "guaranteed act to any unit within 6"". Also, if your opponent kills both Geminae healing tears becomes useless since before they were part of her unit and thus eligible for revival. She also doesn't benefit from Celestians since she doesn't have an order trait
Mobile so can't edit my post: While the last isn't a change, it makes her Geminae that much more important to keep alive since she's far more frail than outsiders want to claim.

[Purifying Tempest]

It is probably just the way I deployed Celestine.  I hardly ever dropped the points on the Geminae because, well, I didn't want to.  I played with it a few times, and just shrugged and said: my Saint is too buff to care about having a fanclub.  Never took 'em again.  So the transition of playstyle for me is a lot less jarring than what a lot of other players are having to adjust to.

[Beams]

I've been running Celestine since she could get instagib'd by a multilaser, so I'll keep running her. I did enjoy the Geminae, and thought they made her feel unique, so I'll try her out new.

[Drider]

It's not even a question about wanting to run her or not. With her +1 to SoF she is an auto include. Her Geminae however are not.

 

With all the things combined, geminae breaking, MI changing, 1 less wound, I think her value is closer to her 6th 135 price Mark.

 

If they wanted to fix her then fix the geminae and stack the extra points of a working beat stick celestine onto the cost of the twins. That way you can take buff bot celestines or beat stick celestines.

[Mekhitar]

I never took the geminae - they were expensive (and gave up free headhunter points). I also use the old Celestine model and would have to proxy seraphim superiors with power swords as her girls, and well, I use them for their original job!

 

Also when you compare their stats vs cost to those of the nex vitrix guard... it’s not even funny. :(

 

I think we have a good chance of making a practical case of why +3” movement is not a good AoF. It’s not a surprise that it got nerfed the most, as it was the most feel-badsy of the Acts. I am hoping to get it to 6”. That is enough to be worth spending a point on, but not the ridiculousness of 12” seraphim jumps.

[FallenSoldiers]

I can’t even say the double move was OP.. look at Genestealers (maybe their Codex will nerf them too??) + Tyranids, Eldar,and Orks... all of those armies can move 40”+ on turn 1 and still assault in some cases. Letting one unit move up to 24” wasn’t OP.

 

That’s my biggest AoF complaint followed by “+1 to hit”. I plan to get a number of games in next week to try things out vs a variety of armies, but I’m not too optimistic.

 

Here’s to hoping well delivered feedback is equally well received and amended.

[Montford]

Watched Ego Queen's game today, went back over the rules previews, and looked through a few lists.

 

I can no longer share any of the negativity. Maybe it's just my training or life experience or whatever, but allowing for not having played a game yet with the beta-dex (I'll start next week) I'm kinda up for this.  I'm getting the impression my T3 units are going to be able to stay on the board longer. And I'm mentally classifying our Army as having a dual Command Point system, Acts of Faith and traditional Command Points running in parallel with each other, rather as them being distinctly separate systems. They actually are separate, but thinking of them this way has helped with implementing them into ideas for employing them on the field.

 

I know as well as any that a MAPEX will only take you so far, but I'm encouraged by what my rock drills have provided and what I watched today, and seeing the new AoF system actually being used, especially as Alexis is NOT a fan of the beta-dex. 

[Drider]

I want to watch her videos, but sadly she's just not for me, I find her kind of annoying. Good on her though for making content and being a personality in the community. 

Any chance of a quick synopsis of your take away's from her game (or if Alexis is reading this, your insight would be good too).

[Purifying Tempest]

She dogged Celestine for like 2 solid videos... and then had her army carried by Celestine   I thought that was poetic.

 

I'm curious about a few of the things I saw happen in the video and if they were in accordance with the rules in the codex, but that is probably due to the beta-dex still being brand spanking new and it'll take time to settle into stuff.

 

She had things go WAY wrong for her when that battle wagon went BOOM and killed what looked like a quarter of her army.  That would have been good enough to end it for many-a-player, but she stuck it out and managed to turn the game with pretty much Celestine alone.

 

The Acts of Faith had little blatant impact, but they looked to have a very subtle impact over the entirety of the game.  Probably could have used some of her Acts differently, but again, they're all new and it takes time to figure it all out.  You could tell she was struggling with trying to parse through the old and the new.  Heavy Bolter Rets ALMOST got her pasted, they did good work, but man... they got shut down for a large portion of the game, too.

 

I did catch myself wondering what a Retributor Squad with extra Boltgun bodies, a Superior with a Combi-melta/flamer, and then the Retributors packing the opposite for Holy Trinity.  Heavy Flamers or Multi-meltas with +1 to wound sounds pretty gross... especially Heavy Flamers since they're already wounding mostly anything in the game on 5 or better.  This means they're hurting dreadnoughts to Knights on 4s, tough heavy infantry (nurgle stuff) on 3s, and any other sort of infantry on 2s.

 

Edit: The more I think about it, the more I think I like Heavy Flamer Rets for that build more than Multi-melta.  I'm pretty sure the only difference between a meltagun and a multi-melta is the range and assault vs heavy.  With the anchor being the Flamer, that nullifies the use of the extended melta range, which means your melta-based Holy Trinity squads should probably be Dominions with a Superior toting a Combi-flamer and a 6th bolter sister.  Rets seem like they'll do better business with the Heavy Flamers in terms of Holy Trinity threatening.

[FallenSoldiers]

I legit just watched the same video... some good, some bad. It’s hard for me to make any judgements because they were just playing a kill points mission, and I’m biased to ITC competitive mission structure.

 

I’m glad she finally at least came around and realized how good Storm Bolters are.

[Purifying Tempest]

Her stormbolters were money, but they were rolling exceptional through that game :)  I'm glad they showed out, though, such a great weapon for 2 points.