Sisters Preview

[Atrus]

The complaint of calling the new faith system more book keeping for sisters and slowing down the game, is a giant cop out.

It takes absolutely zero effort to have a small pile of dice or tokens to the side for faith points. Remove or add one as necessary.

Half the faiths go off in a 3+ the others a 4+ or 5+. If youre needing to set aside more than 3 seconds to consider whether you want to use a faith that phase or not, well then youve got bigger problems than that.

 

Sorry, just frustrated at some of the salt ive seen piled up around the various places.

I really dont have anything more to contribute till CA drops and get some games in.

 

After seeing Alexis' game, im only further convinced that the faith mechanics is a fine system in itself and that it is the underwhelming faith abilities themselves that are letting us down. They are what needs tuning, buff them up a bit more and a lot of people will be happy.

I know its a tricky thing to balance with Vessels existing, though honestly, for 3cp, and needing to pass a roll and maybe even have to reroll (3-4cp if no dialogus) our cp is going to vanish pretty darn quick and balances out more or less. Not to mention that we have stratagems aside from Vessels that we'll be wanting to save cp for now as well.

We're not going to win games by spamming Vessels for 3 phases in first turn.

If Vessels is truly seen as the balancing issue, then adding the addendum that Vessels may only be used once per battle round could be a solution. It keeps it strong but not spammable

 

Theres so much gate keeping in the faith system (need the point, only one attempt, pass a roll, essentially only a faith per phase) theres no reason they shouldnt be buffed up more than a little.

[Montford]

I want to watch her videos, but sadly she's just not for me, I find her kind of annoying. Good on her though for making content and being a personality in the community. 

 

Any chance of a quick synopsis of your take away's from her game (or if Alexis is reading this, your insight would be good too).

 

Ego Queen Alexis is one of the very few youtube batreppers who regularly play Sisters and know the Army. 1,000 point game. She was up against Orks who got in her face pretty quick. She took a dual Order list, Bloody Rose & Ebon Chalice vs. Deff Skull Orks.

 

She took Celestine w/ full Geminae and two Canonesses, one bare bones with Book of St. Lucius, the other with Cloak and power axe, Repentia, Mistress, 3x BSS w/ 3 stormbolters each, 3x Retributors Squads all  with Heavy Bolters, and Rhino w/ stormbolter.  Decent amount of cover on the table. I think it went 5 turns, result was Orks were tabled and all the Sisters had left was Celestine (on her second life), a beat up Retributor squad and the Rhino. Good friendly game between friends.

 

One interesting thing I noticed was how salty Alexis was at the start of the game about all the changes, especially to Celestine, but by the end she'd lost a good deal of that salt.

 

I think what I got most out of the batrep was watching the new Act of Faith rules in action. I've always preferred the visual / hands-on method of learning. 

 

Right now for myself I want to try out stormbolter Dominions with a Simularcrum in the squad and a Canoness with the Emperor's Wrath & power maul hanging out with them. (119 pts if I have the points right and don't add another Dominion or two as ablative shielding) I'll use another Canoness for my warlord. I'm thinking that for ~120 points I can have a little group which can cause mayhem all out of proportion to their points, and not look so threatening as to attract too much attention while they are doing it.

[Montford]

The complaint of calling the new faith system more book keeping for sisters and slowing down the game, is a giant cop out.

It takes absolutely zero effort to have a small pile of dice or tokens to the side for faith points. Remove or add one as necessary.

Half the faiths go off in a 3+ the others a 4+ or 5+. If youre needing to set aside more than 3 seconds to consider whether you want to use a faith that phase or not, well then youve got bigger problems than that.

 

I use a stack of poker chips for my Command Points. When I use a CP I hand a chip to my opponent, that way both of us know how many I have used and how many I have left. I think I'll just use another stack of chips which are a different color for Faith points.

[ERJAK]

The complaint of calling the new faith system more book keeping for sisters and slowing down the game, is a giant cop out.

It takes absolutely zero effort to have a small pile of dice or tokens to the side for faith points. Remove or add one as necessary.

Half the faiths go off in a 3+ the others a 4+ or 5+. If youre needing to set aside more than 3 seconds to consider whether you want to use a faith that phase or not, well then youve got bigger problems than that.

 

Sorry, just frustrated at some of the salt ive seen piled up around the various places.

I really dont have anything more to contribute till CA drops and get some games in.

 

After seeing Alexis' game, im only further convinced that the faith mechanics is a fine system in itself and that it is the underwhelming faith abilities themselves that are letting us down. They are what needs tuning, buff them up a bit more and a lot of people will be happy.

I know its a tricky thing to balance with Vessels existing, though honestly, for 3cp, and needing to pass a roll and maybe even have to reroll (3-4cp if no dialogus) our cp is going to vanish pretty darn quick and balances out more or less. Not to mention that we have stratagems aside from Vessels that we'll be wanting to save cp for now as well.

We're not going to win games by spamming Vessels for 3 phases in first turn.

If Vessels is truly seen as the balancing issue, then adding the addendum that Vessels may only be used once per battle round could be a solution. It keeps it strong but not spammable

 

Theres so much gate keeping in the faith system (need the point, only one attempt, pass a roll, essentially only a faith per phase) theres no reason they shouldnt be buffed up more than a little.

I think at this point, the majority of people here do agree that the Acts of Faith system as whole is actually fine, even very good. The benefits being weak is the problem, alongside Vessels making us EXCEPTIONALLY CP hungry. 

 

I've now played a game with these rules, and I gotta say, the AoF system works...except for how weak the bonuses are. I had 10pts, we went to turn 7, I ended with 3pts to spare and didn't use any of the faith generation abilities at all. Early on I was only using +1 to hit and used hand of the emperor once or twice. I failed passions on Celestine once but didn't bother trying again because neither Celestine or the Repentia needed it. By the end I was forgetting about them a lot. Outside of Vessels with the +1 to or Hand of the Emperor on Repentia(kind of) they don't really feel like they do anything. Having a psyker one and a morale one means that unless you play a psyker heavy army you won't get through all you points most of the time. Even if you do, I had something like 13 2d6 denies available for the entire game. Reading through this I realize it was more negative than I intended. To throw out some more positives, cases where I used +1 to hit on an individual unit felt good. It really felt like I was making an important tactical decision. When I DID use hand of the emperor on repentia and my Blade of Admonition Canoness, the extra 3 inches of movement was more useful than I would have originally thought, though still ultimately not good enough to be using it every turn. I never used the immune to morale act so it felt bad but there were a couple of rolls where I went 'ah, it's okay if I fail, I'll just AoF it'.

 

The core is DEFINITELY there, they either need a bump or they need Vessels to be 1-2CP and some of the restrictions lifted off of them.

 

The Vessels bump with the +1 to hit feels nice..ish. It feels like you're getting good value out of it when you use it...except...when you think about how turn 3 is gonna go. Because you're out of CP by then. I have to tell you, however bad you think the CP drain is, it's actually worse. I brought a brigade(15CP) and between burning descent, Vessels, reroll 1s to wound, the stormbolter strat and the Psyker stopper, and only 1 or 2 very necessary rerolls(make a charge with Repentia, Celestine Invul), I burned through all 15CP by turn two.

 

The thing I thought was good was how useful most of our stratagems actually are. Burning descent was surprisingly tasty with D6 hit handflamers(would definitely run it again), the stormbolter strat was obviously great, giving reroll wounds of 1 to a unit with +1 to hit was nice, there's some good stuff in there. I would say outside of holy trinity, most of our stratagems are perfectly fine as they are.

 

The thing that scares me is how necessary spending all of that CP felt. You need the +1 on as many things as possible, you need the stormbolter strat and the reroll to wound strat, and burning descent. I could have quite easily lost with a handful more misses. We feel like we still work, we're not suddenly Grey Knights level bad, the core of the army still functions just fine. It's just...heavier I guess, than it was with old Celestine and the old Acts.

 

I'll do more of a write-up later with my thoughts on repentia, the 4++ blob, and Exorcists but my main takeaway was 'holy crap do we need a lot of CP'.

[ERJAK]

 

I want to watch her videos, but sadly she's just not for me, I find her kind of annoying. Good on her though for making content and being a personality in the community. 

 

Any chance of a quick synopsis of your take away's from her game (or if Alexis is reading this, your insight would be good too).

 

Ego Queen Alexis is one of the very few youtube batreppers who regularly play Sisters and know the Army. 1,000 point game. She was up against Orks who got in her face pretty quick. She took a dual Order list, Bloody Rose & Ebon Chalice vs. Deff Skull Orks.

 

She took Celestine w/ full Geminae and two Canonesses, one bare bones with Book of St. Lucius, the other with Cloak and power axe, Repentia, Mistress, 3x BSS w/ 3 stormbolters each, 3x Retributors Squads all  with Heavy Bolters, and Rhino w/ stormbolter.  Decent amount of cover on the table. I think it went 5 turns, result was Orks were tabled and all the Sisters had left was Celestine (on her second life), a beat up Retributor squad and the Rhino. Good friendly game between friends.

 

One interesting thing I noticed was how salty Alexis was at the start of the game about all the changes, especially to Celestine, but by the end she'd lost a good deal of that salt.

 

I think what I got most out of the batrep was watching the new Act of Faith rules in action. I've always preferred the visual / hands-on method of learning. 

 

Right now for myself I want to try out stormbolter Dominions with a Simularcrum in the squad and a Canoness with the Emperor's Wrath & power maul hanging out with them. (119 pts if I have the points right and don't add another Dominion or two as ablative shielding) I'll use another Canoness for my warlord. I'm thinking that for ~120 points I can have a little group which can cause mayhem all out of proportion to their points, and not look so threatening as to attract too much attention while they are doing it.

 

It's not as bad as I think the more pessimistic amongst us originally thought(me) but it's still not great. I think she'll end up about halfway between where she is after that game and where she was at the start once she gets up to 2k.

[Laughingman]

Looking at the Beta Codex as a whole, I'm struck by the limited ability (high bar in Cps or AOF) to re-roll or modify to wound roles in the fight phase... such game design saddens me... Because we all want a thematic Bloody Roses army... 

[ERJAK]

Looking at the Beta Codex as a whole, I'm struck by the limited ability (high bar in Cps or AOF) to re-roll or modify to wound roles in the fight phase... such game design saddens me... Because we all want a thematic Bloody Roses army... 

The thing about The Passion being 5+ I can't figure it out is why, precisely, they decided on ONLY 5+ for this one. They have to know that Sisters are generally pretty bad at melee, right?

 

The two ideas I had were 1) They looked at how powerful the ability seems on paper vs the rest of the AoFs and just decided it should be 5+ or 2) They've already started designing the rules for some sort of Sisters melee unit that's coming out with the codex and they felt like either the unit was good enough that it justified the 5+ or that the 5+ gave them more design space.

[EmperorGTank]

Just curious Erjak, which order did you bring for the brigade? I know that Bloody Rose is strong for our melee units and that the 6+ FNP also has uses, but if the AoF system seems to work despite the bonuses being underwhelming, Ebon Chalice feels like the go to order for us in most semi competitive games, unless one is bringing multiple detachments such as 2 Battalions and a Vanguard or something. The gaining faith point orders do not seem to be needed because of either Celestine's warlord trait proccing(if you take her as warlord which I know is kinda meh now) or the Sacred Rites stratagem( though with how CP hungry we are that may not be worth it now).The only other I could see as useful is Argent Shroud for the overwatch buff or not caring about morale on larger squads without needing an AoF. Just trying to gauge how I will be building my lists now, and I would like to try a brigade but also want to try out multiple orders, which because of certain elites not taking up slots that could be a bit more difficult to do now.

[ERJAK]

Just curious Erjak, which order did you bring for the brigade? I know that Bloody Rose is strong for our melee units and that the 6+ FNP also has uses, but if the AoF system seems to work despite the bonuses being underwhelming, Ebon Chalice feels like the go to order for us in most semi competitive games, unless one is bringing multiple detachments such as 2 Battalions and a Vanguard or something. The gaining faith point orders do not seem to be needed because of either Celestine's warlord trait proccing(if you take her as warlord which I know is kinda meh now) or the Sacred Rites stratagem( though with how CP hungry we are that may not be worth it now).The only other I could see as useful is Argent Shroud for the overwatch buff or not caring about morale on larger squads without needing an AoF. Just trying to gauge how I will be building my lists now, and I would like to try a brigade but also want to try out multiple orders, which because of certain elites not taking up slots that could be a bit more difficult to do now.

Bloody rose. Ebon chalice would have been nowhere near as good. If you have a dialogus, the EC bonus isn't necessary. If you don't have a dialogus, you don't really care about getting the AoF anyway. Bloody rose over the course of the game got me quite a few extra wounds, especially on Seraphim. I would never use EC in a brigade list. 

 

Don't make Celestine your warlord until the AoFs change, because her trait is trash. The 5++ trait is FAR better. Sacred rites won't be worth it until Faith Points get buffed, although martyrdom is not necessarily terrible. Remember, just because the Faith Points are functional and have some decent uses doesn't mean we should really be putting a lot of resources into building around them.

 

If the bonuses get stronger, then EC might be good as a brigade, but considering how little it matters if you fail any of the non+1 to hit AoFs, Bloody rose will get you more mileage over the course of the game. Now if you're running multiple detachments then EC is really good for things like dominions who won't get any shot at a dialogus.

 

TL:DR Bloody Rose or Argent Shroud if building a brigade. EC+something if building multiple detachments.

 

If you want my honest opinion: A competitive SoB list consists of an Ebon Chalice Battalion with Celestine, Canoness, 3x5 BSS with Stormbolters 3xMelta Dominions 3x repressors+ 900+pts of allies. The army is functional, it's not quite competitive.

[EmperorGTank]

Thanks so much! Yea I think my first lists to playtest are definitely going to consist of an Ebon Chalice Battalion with a Bloody Rose Vanguard and hen something else (probably a second battalion for CPs) which will include Celestine, a Canoness or 2, 3 Melta Doms in Immos with Immo Flamers (I respect the Repressor and understand how good it is just not a FW player and hate converting the model for it), the 3 BSS with Stormbolters, maybe an Exorcist or 2 and a HB Ret squad or 2, or maybe for with HB and one with HF and MM to test out Holy Trinity. The Vanguard would have a Missionary, Mistress, Repentia, Rhino, maybe some Arcos, just to test out as much as I can and then see whats worth keeping in and what isnt. I would really like to test pure sisters of course, but I am sure will end up allying in some guard I have or Knights eventually.

 

Thanks for all the insight though really, I need to know where to start and you've helped out a bunch. Honestly I am a local tournament player, I like to play casually mostly, but when going to local tournaments I used to place in the lower part of the top 3 with the index army.  I could usually get 2nd consistently if I allied a knight in, otherwise I was usually 3rd, often losing out to dark eldar shenanigans and similar lists. So the goal will be to find something that can at least place close to that with the beta dex, as difficult as that may be, along with having fluffy lists of course for casual play with friends.

[Commander Dawnstar]

 

The thing about The Passion being 5+ I can't figure it out is why, precisely, they decided on ONLY 5+ for this one. They have to know that Sisters are generally pretty bad at melee, right?

 

The two ideas I had were 1) They looked at how powerful the ability seems on paper vs the rest of the AoFs and just decided it should be 5+ or 2) They've already started designing the rules for some sort of Sisters melee unit that's coming out with the codex and they felt like either the unit was good enough that it justified the 5+ or that the 5+ gave them more design space.

 

 

I'd be inclined to blame the Ebon Chalice. If the Codex adds any new melee units based on traditional Battle Sisters (i.e. Company Veteran equivalent Celestians or Vanguard Veteran equivalent Seraphim) then it would be simplicity itself for the Ebon Chalice to have them targeting a 2+ for The Passion if it required a baseline 4+ and they can bring a Simulacrum. They definitely have a bit of a 'problem' Conviction when it comes to setting target numbers if GW wants certain Acts to be somewhat unreliable. Even a 6+ Act could have a 75% chance of success for them once you take Command Point rerolls into effect.

 

Edit: Or maybe I'm overselling this because I'm not even thinking about the Dialogus.

 

Basically I'd assume a bit of both of your suggestions. It's the most powerful Act in terms of impact and it limits design space if it can be reliably applied.

[Laughingman]

Some of the problems with Beta Codex come down to unit design and synergy that will only be solved with dedicated changes to the actual rules...

 

Side note:

 

Hopefully the Actual Codex does away with the silly restrictions on special weapons/Heavy Weapons in Dominion and Retributor squads... In particular the Flame based weaponry that only really of value when deployed in mass (besides if the Sisters of Silence Witch-seekers can have 10 flamer squads then so should Sisters Of Battle).. It would likely offset some of the problems with lack of Melee prowess... 

[Ficinus]

The Vanguard would have a Missionary, Mistress, Repentia, Rhino, maybe some Arcos, just to test out as much as I can and then see whats worth keeping in and what isnt.

Just remember, if you're trying to take a Vanguard detachment and that detachment has any models with the Priest keyword (which I believe is both Missionaries and Preachers) then Arco-flags, Crusaders, and Death Cult don't fill up the slots and if you take any Repentia, a Mistress doesn't fill up any slots. So, it's not always as easy as it seems.

[Purifying Tempest]

I doubt the Dominions or Retributors or Seraphim are going to change in a manner that affects their loadouts.  I started the army during the White Dwarf codex, but if my foggy memory serves, they have had the same weapon options forever.

 

Which goes a little deeper into your point:

 

Most of the units saw no changes to their rules.  Celestine got overhauled, Penitent Engines got tinkered with, Dialogus changed, and Exorcists had a tweak.  The Battle Sister units on a whole did not get any sort of change, except for the Repentia who got a tweak as well.

 

I think Sisters will continue to mock Space Marine design, for all the pros and cons that comes with it.

[Purifying Tempest]

 

The Vanguard would have a Missionary, Mistress, Repentia, Rhino, maybe some Arcos, just to test out as much as I can and then see whats worth keeping in and what isnt.

Just remember, if you're trying to take a Vanguard detachment and that detachment has any models with the Priest keyword (which I believe is both Missionaries and Preachers) then Arco-flags, Crusaders, and Death Cult don't fill up the slots and if you take any Repentia, a Mistress doesn't fill up any slots. So, it's not always as easy as it seems.

 

 

I thought I liked the detachment slot modifications until it came down to actually build a detachment.  They're stupid.  So many of the "this guy doesn't count if you have that guy" are going to make building lists intolerably nitpicky.  If there is one genuine complaint I can issue, like this mechanic is just bad and needs to go, it is that.  Fix the min size of these units if they're so worried about the entry cost of a BDE detachment, but honestly, I think it is still going to be more than Astra Militarum, so what's the big deal?

[Slasher956]

They had the same load outs since the WH Codex (when I got my first unit) if not before ...... its part of their lore that BSS have 2 special or 1 special & 1 heavy, dominions 4 special, retributors 4 heavy.... Celestians & BSS used to have the heavy flamer counting as a special as well.

 

inferno pistols where only added in the WHs, as where repentia & penitent engines so we might get new weapons / loadouts / units yet !!!!

[Beams]

 

 

Looking at the Beta Codex as a whole, I'm struck by the limited ability (high bar in Cps or AOF) to re-roll or modify to wound roles in the fight phase... such game design saddens me... Because we all want a thematic Bloody Roses army...

The thing about The Passion being 5+ I can't figure it out is why, precisely, they decided on ONLY 5+ for this one. They have to know that Sisters are generally pretty bad at melee, right?

 

The two ideas I had were 1) They looked at how powerful the ability seems on paper vs the rest of the AoFs and just decided it should be 5+ or 2) They've already started designing the rules for some sort of Sisters melee unit that's coming out with the codex and they felt like either the unit was good enough that it justified the 5+ or that the 5+ gave them more design space.

Repentia. Bloody Rose Repentia who fight twice will kill anything they can touch.

 

Edit: I still think Vessels needs to be 2 CP, as it's most common use will be +1 to hit within 6" (for that phase), making it strictly worse than Chapter Master (reroll all misses w/in 6" for the rest of the game), and it has to have a 3/4/5+ roll beforehand to proc off of.

[Slasher956]

 

 

I thought I liked the detachment slot modifications until it came down to actually build a detachment.  They're stupid.  So many of the "this guy doesn't count if you have that guy" are going to make building lists intolerably nitpicky.  If there is one genuine complaint I can issue, like this mechanic is just bad and needs to go, it is that.  Fix the min size of these units if they're so worried about the entry cost of a BDE detachment, but honestly, I think it is still going to be more than Astra Militarum, so what's the big deal?

 

 

I feel sorry for the people who do battle scribe & similar programs..... 

 

Like you said, why cant they take a little from the WHs (you NEED to have a priest to include these units) and allow the units to split into smaller units on deployment (like artillery units (eg aeldari support weapons ))  So Arcos 3-9, Deployed in units of 3+,

[Mekhitar]

I was trying to figure out the design logic behind so many of the slot exceptions, and I haven’t quite gotten it yet.

 

Hubs suggested that they didn’t want sisters to be able to fill out a brigade on the cheap, but you can take a hospitaller or a dialogus to the same end.

 

I thought maybe they wanted to prevent the AdMin detachment. A priest HQ plus 3 AdMin elites gets you a “Sisters” army without any sisters in it. Since priests are 1 per detachment and the battle conclave doesn’t take up slots, you can’t get a vanguard or a sup comm from admin only while not taking Sisters.

 

But then I realized you can take a priest and 3 penitent engines, so that line of reasoning falls apart. I’m trying not to be too salty about the idea that 4 of our 22 unit options will probably be slotless. It’s already a small dex../

 

I did a little bit of adding up:

22 options

8 options are Sororitas and benefit from convictions (assuming vehicles don’t)

7 are Sororitas but do not benefit from convictions

7 are not Sororitas

 

 

Edit: maybe they want to avoid the priest plus arcosX3 as a cheap imperial ally for horde clear and access to extremis trigger word?

[Slasher956]

I think they are trying to put the focus on the Sisters as they are the title of the 'dex.

 

With the PEs size, rules & points, your not going to be using them for camping on objectives.

 

 

As to the size... we wont be the smallest 'dex released (that'll remain the Custodes with 12 units in total!)

[Beams]

I was trying to figure out the design logic behind so many of the slot exceptions, and I haven’t quite gotten it yet.

 

Hubs suggested that they didn’t want sisters to be able to fill out a brigade on the cheap, but you can take a hospitaller or a dialogus to the same end.

 

I thought maybe they wanted to prevent the AdMin detachment. A priest HQ plus 3 AdMin elites gets you a “Sisters” army without any sisters in it. Since priests are 1 per detachment and the battle conclave doesn’t take up slots, you can’t get a vanguard or a sup comm from admin only while not taking Sisters.

 

But then I realized you can take a priest and 3 penitent engines, so that line of reasoning falls apart. I’m trying not to be too salty about the idea that 4 of our 22 unit options will probably be slotless. It’s already a small dex../

 

I did a little bit of adding up:

22 options

8 options are Sororitas and benefit from convictions (assuming vehicles don’t)

7 are Sororitas but do not benefit from convictions

7 are not Sororitas

 

 

Edit: maybe they want to avoid the priest plus arcosX3 as a cheap imperial ally for horde clear and access to extremis trigger word?

I'd put money on your edit being correct.

 

A squad of 9 Arcos, with Extremis trigger word are insanely strong. They will kill any infantry they come into contact with, doing a median of 40 wounds vs Guardsmen equivalents. Without a CP penalty for taking them, they'd be a major imperial soup Ingredient.

[Mekhitar]

I also play the golden boys, though mine wear red and/or purple tabards so they go with my sisters...

 

You know, I’m thinking. If we end up getting that “novitiate” unit for troops, our capacity to take 4++ with 1001 ways to mitigate morale might actually be fairly solid.

 

If we get that unit.

[Purifying Tempest]

I remember saying something months ago that I wasn't a fan of the Ministorum units being shoved into Codex Adepta Sororitas because it will definitely present problems and water down the resultant product for both armies (though I only care about the Sisters, to be honest).  We're already seeing that with so much design thought and space being wasted on making these (forgive the harsh tone here) stupid units fit into our army.  The unit breakdown above presented by Mekhitar is exactly what I didn't want to see.  14 out of 22 units (almost 2/3rds) of our units just don't benefit from the bulk of our rules.  If you take out the Ministorum exclusive crap, that means 7/15 (just under half) do not... and Space Marine players fussed that their vehicles didn't get their special rules, lol.

 

I'm being overly critical now because I think that so much of the Sororitas design space is being lost to the very bland Ministorum, and Codex Adepta Sororitas is a misnomer for Codex Adeptus Ministorum.  The only Ministorum exclusive units that should be in this Codex are priests, and even then I am hesitant.  But if you're going to have a full Ministorum force participating, I think they need to have their own rules, and if they wanted to be really sly, they could allow Ministorum units to be included in Adepta Sororitas and Astra Militarum detachments without having any impact on said detachments.

 

I know this goes all the way back to WH, but that book has been exploded so hard by now.  There's pieces of it in like 5 codices now?  The bulk still appears to be lodged in the Sororitas, probably due to the fact that they're lazy and didn't want to expand on either faction (Sororitas and Ministorum) to warrant giving them a full book, thus they're jammed into 1.  I do remember the Grey Knights having a bunch of this mess in like their 5th ed codex, was it?  Now it is exclusively Sororitas.

 

I wouldn't be nearly as ranty about it if the title was Codex: Adeptus Ministorum, but it is Codex: Adepta Sororitas, and still we are losing so much codex space to stuff that just isn't as advertised.

 

PS:  Penitent Engines then become the contention point... since technically they are Ministorum property.  And if they gotta go, so be it, but at least the Sororitas field the unit as part of their fighting forces, I hardly see the Astra Militarum clamoring to unleash Penitent Engines on their foes.  They at least feel a lot less tacked on than the old Ministorum Battle Conclave units.

[Mekhitar]

Oops, I forgot to include repressors! Silly of me. That would be another Sororitas unit, although one that does not benefit from convictions.

[Slasher956]

Oops, I forgot to include repressors! Silly of me. That would be another Sororitas unit, although one that does not benefit from convictions.

currenty* they are a FW unit so not really into this discussion

 

@Purifying Tempest - If we do kick out the church from the Sisters of Battle then we are down to the same level of units as the Custodes (14 units +1 named character V Custodes 11 +1) so GW have already proved they can do a 'dex that small if they want!

 

 

 

*I hope that GW do pull it from FW and put it into the codex especially as FW arent selling the parts any more......