Sisters Preview

[Montford]

This sentence-

 

"Acts of Faith are designed to scale up based on army size, with you getting an additional Faith Point for every ten models with the Acts of Faith rule in your force."

 

-makes me think that an Army will start out with a base number of Faith Points, to which you add one more Faith Point for every ten models with the Acts of Faith rule. 

[ERJAK]

 

 

 

And then a 10 point unit banner could possibly make the reliability of firing your "death star" a lot more reasonably.

What does a SoB "Deathstar" look like?

I'm thinking melee Cannonesses surrounded by Celestine and Celestians or Repentia and a priest, 3 CP to give the aura AoF.

 

Basically, rush the middle of the board in tranports turn 1, jump out turn 2 and melee everything to death.

I asked that question because I've never seen anything up to par with what other armies can do that they call Deathstars. Repentia hit hard, sure, but are made of paper. Without assault ramps in this edition you can't count on them. Battle Conclaves used to qualify, but with the Index changes and 8th edition rules aren't nearly as good as they were. Celestine with a screening unit of 10 Seraphim bodyguards is about as close as I'd get to calling something a Deathstar anymore, but even then their utility isn't universal like other Deathstars can claim to be because their wargear limits them to menacing hordes and PA MSU. To have something truly worthy of the apellation of Deathstar we're going to need to see some significant changes in the new rules.

 

The thing I think people forget about true 'Deathstars' is that they're also DEFENSIVELY very powerful. The long dead Deathstars of 7th past were capable of 98%+ damage reduction against even AP2 weaponry. Even the Battle Conclave had access to extremely cheap 3++ they could body block with.

 

The units suggested work well in concert and kick out a frankly shocking amount of damage for their cost between AoFs and the Bloody Rose conviction, but ultimately still die just as fast as any other sisters do(Celestine being the obvious exception). So I wouldn't classify it so much as a Deathstar as I would a Suicide Bomb. Everything there is gonna die. The question is, is your opponent going to have anything left by the time they're gone?

[CaptainMarsh]

This sentence-

 

"Acts of Faith are designed to scale up based on army size, with you getting an additional Faith Point for every ten models with the Acts of Faith rule in your force."

 

-makes me think that an Army will start out with a base number of Faith Points, to which you add one more Faith Point for every ten models with the Acts of Faith rule. 

Which is supported by this from bob:

"i cant share more details right now but MAYBE ;) there are stratagem to generate Faith points :D

And you don't start with 1 or 0 FP"

[Warsmith Aznable]

Everything there is gonna die. The question is, is your opponent going to have anything left by the time they're gone?

 

 

Sisters list building theory in a nutshell, for as long as I've played them at least. It's even harder now that 3+ armour saves just aren't what they used to be. Sisters effectiveness degrades rapidly as the game progresses, but traditionally Acts of Faith make up for this by providing an edge to lethality early in the game (because it's not going to be there in the endgame unless its coming from Celestine.) Acts of Faith aren't just a bonus or for there for thematic flavour, they're fundamental to the army in a way that I don't believe a lot of non-Sisters players truly understand. Which is why they need to be reliable, and I am anxious to see these new rules in their entirety and see how they work in practice.

[Arkaniss]

It's a good teaser then, as it's generated lots of discussion but I find there too little said to really know what to make of this preview. I do hope they make AoF fun and fluffy to use, as mentioned several times in this topic alone it is a defining thing for Sisters.

 

With regard to the number of Faith Points (and it possibly being lower than people hope) perhaps we'll get the old Martyrdom rule back? Right now it seems sort of like an alternate Command Point system

[Closet Skeleton]

I'm kind of worried that the Faith points are just a sneak trial for 9th ed command points.

 

Out of left field question, but do you think we will see sisters on larger bases, or will the keep 25mm?

 

Sisters of Silence, Veridyan and the Gemini are all on 32s.

[Atrus]

With the focus of bodies = more FP, im curious to see if squad sizes will go up. Example, BSS going back to min 10. Dominion squads only having 2 special weapons per 5 models?

[Slasher956]

Re Dominion sqauds... nope they'll stay 5-10 with 0-4 special weapons, cant go above 10 because of vehicles sizes :p.... unless we're losing the rhino and getting more vehicle types

 

On the subject of AoF, it looks like they are leaning back towards 3rd Ed faith, start of with a number of faithpoints, spend one for the chance to use it.  but instead of Ld (and the confusion of needing over or under) they've gone with a static roll 1 D6... then you get modifiers.

 

I can also see them bringing back the old 3rd Ed martyrdom ... lose what generates faith points and gain that faith point back.. ie lose 10 sisters.  So your 55 sisters would start with X +5 but could end up using X +5 + Y(strats...)

 

Faith Stragems, I think as we are having a faith pool at the start of the game it will be use the strageme during list building (so no chance of re-gening the CP)

 

 

I can also see them putting the Imags back into the squads

[Mainman_99]

Quick question: Some refere to War of Sigmar/Bob. Is this an official GW-source or another rumor page? Since WoS claiming its 1D and its not clearly written on the community pages

[Slasher956]

By the looks of it, its a Rumour page

[ERJAK]

Quick question: Some refere to War of Sigmar/Bob. Is this an official GW-source or another rumor page? Since WoS claiming its 1D and its not clearly written on the community pages

War of Sigmar is Lady Atia and Bob's blog. Their word is generally as good as GW's. Better in some cases. Specifically, they always get the new books early and are most likely not only directly quoting from the book in front of them but are also writing their own reviews for release when preorders come up and the NDA goes off.

[ERJAK]

With the focus of bodies = more FP, im curious to see if squad sizes will go up. Example, BSS going back to min 10. Dominion squads only having 2 special weapons per 5 models?

God, I hope not. That would nuke the entire army almost instantly. 100 AoFs per game wouldn't be enough to make up for that many wasted points. Not to mention it would make Immolators completely useless...unless they increased the transport capacity to 10...at which point Rhinos would be (more)useless. And neither would be as good as a repressor still.

[Atrus]

Aye, it wouldnt be favourable, but then celestians would probably find their place as min 5 as theyve always had that min iirc.

 

Nothing more to contribute till next spoiler.

[ERJAK]

Aye, it wouldnt be favourable, but then celestians would probably find their place as min 5 as theyve always had that min iirc.

 

Nothing more to contribute till next spoiler.

That would be a nice niche for Celestians.

 

Also, expect full leaks either today or tomorrow. Once preorders go up, the NDA's come off and we get just about everything at once.

[Scurrae]

AoF : add the folowing words to the rule.

Add another act of faith per round for each 500pts of Adeptus Ministrum units in your army.

Each time an Act of faith is performed the following one require a +1 on the dice roll to work,

i.e. if your first Acts of Faith is successful, the next will need a 3+ to be successful and so on.

 

... It scale with your army size, it doesn't make the AoF broken, it doesn't make it good for the trash bin

... it took me 5 seconds to come up with... seriously GW...

[Montford]

Another thing to keep in mind regarding the number of Faithful models affecting Faith points:

 

It seems a great many Imperial forces are experience point cost drops. Perhaps the Sisters will as well, which would help in getting more models on the field.

 

Just a thought.

[Slasher956]

a guard is 5 points per model after CA.... how much lower can a sister go? when 4 points currently gets you

 

+1 BS

+1 Ld

+ 2 armour

a 6++ invun

a once per turn 24" ranged 1D6 deny the witch

a bolt pistol,

krak granades

+1 strength on main weapon (boltgun instead of lasgun)

 

 

however I do see Noviates being a unit choice...some where between guardsmen & battle sisters in stats & points..... (we need a 2nd troop choice!)

 

 

EDIT - Also I hope that rather than us lose the triple weapon superiors they allow us to take triple weapon canoness!

[Mekhitar]

You know, I hadn’t considered that word “additional” in the faith point pool. You get one additional faith point per 10 models. If there is a second way to generate faith points, such that the initial number is more than 6 or 7, it may be salvageable.

 

I’m curious if the Codex is going to have rules for models like novitiates that don’t exist yet.

[taikishi]

I've not really read the whole thread so I apologize if this is too far out of left field, but I'm excited for the AoF change. I wasn't interested in the Index system, too simplistic with 3 very broad, very powerful abilities that had very little flavor. Of course, the new system could be weak but it sounds quite interesting.

 

The stratagems they showed seemed neat, though SB Doms were already as good or better than Flamer and Melta Doms, maybe we'll get a flamer strat and a melta strat too.

 

And of course I'm looking forward to seeing what the VH Order Conviction is. I appreciate that the EC's is nice and generic, since they're kinda the "original" Order.

 

We'll see how it all plays out, of course

 

They've already shown us Valorous Heart, it's in the preview. It's 6+ FNP

 

We had a similar Faith system in 3-4E. Faith points based on models purchased for the army, with characters generally giving more than units. Whenever a unit was wiped out or a character slain, they became martyrs and you regained their faith points. The problems were two-fold.

 

Some of the tests required you to roll equal to or UNDER a unit's strength on 2d6, meaning they were generally worthless late game unless you were using full 20 model Battle Sister squads. Others required you to roll equal to or OVER a unit's strength, meaning they were useless early game unless you were playing with small squads. Basically, the Acts of Faith were super unreliable and just kind of there.

 

Also, unless the squad was Seraphim or Celestians, you either had to take a Veteran Sister Superior to make a squad "Faithful" or attach a Canoness or Palatine to the squad and leave it there the entire game. If the VSS, Canoness or Palatine died OR the Canoness/Palatine left the unit for any reason, it ceased being faithful and could no longer perform Acts of Faith.

 

Personally, I'm not looking forward to going back to a limited and unreliable use of Acts of Faith. If they want to make us roll to use them, the Faith Points need to be plentiful regardless of army size, maybe even a base amount every TURN that are "use or lose" and then additional points based on army size for the entire game. The other option I'm personally willing to live with is:

 

Leave the limited use based on faith points, but make them guaranteed effects and weaker effects. Perhaps it's my mentality as a main tank in MMOs, but I'd much rather have a reliable effect that isn't super strong than one that's super strong that I can't ever rely on. I'm looking at you, tanking trinkets!

[Servant of Dante]

 

 

I've not really read the whole thread so I apologize if this is too far out of left field, but I'm excited for the AoF change. I wasn't interested in the Index system, too simplistic with 3 very broad, very powerful abilities that had very little flavor. Of course, the new system could be weak but it sounds quite interesting.

 

The stratagems they showed seemed neat, though SB Doms were already as good or better than Flamer and Melta Doms, maybe we'll get a flamer strat and a melta strat too.

 

And of course I'm looking forward to seeing what the VH Order Conviction is. I appreciate that the EC's is nice and generic, since they're kinda the "original" Order.

 

We'll see how it all plays out, of course

They've already shown us Valorous Heart, it's in the preview. It's 6+ FNP

 

We had a similar Faith system in 3-4E. Faith points based on models purchased for the army, with characters generally giving more than units. Whenever a unit was wiped out or a character slain, they became martyrs and you regained their faith points. The problems were two-fold.

 

Some of the tests required you to roll equal to or UNDER a unit's strength on 2d6, meaning they were generally worthless late game unless you were using full 20 model Battle Sister squads. Others required you to roll equal to or OVER a unit's strength, meaning they were useless early game unless you were playing with small squads. Basically, the Acts of Faith were super unreliable and just kind of there.

 

Also, unless the squad was Seraphim or Celestians, you either had to take a Veteran Sister Superior to make a squad "Faithful" or attach a Canoness or Palatine to the squad and leave it there the entire game. If the VSS, Canoness or Palatine died OR the Canoness/Palatine left the unit for any reason, it ceased being faithful and could no longer perform Acts of Faith.

 

Personally, I'm not looking forward to going back to a limited and unreliable use of Acts of Faith. If they want to make us roll to use them, the Faith Points need to be plentiful regardless of army size, maybe even a base amount every TURN that are "use or lose" and then additional points based on army size for the entire game. The other option I'm personally willing to live with is:

 

Leave the limited use based on faith points, but make them guaranteed effects and weaker effects. Perhaps it's my mentality as a main tank in MMOs, but I'd much rather have a reliable effect that isn't super strong than one that's super strong that I can't ever rely on. I'm looking at you, tanking trinkets!

Oh apparently I can’t read, well I’m happy with that Order Conviction for VH then.

 

As for the Faith system, of course I’m familiar with the Witch Hunters codex system, I’ve played games with that codex. Personally, I always really liked the under/over roll and Faithful rule, but those issues are irrelevant here since neither of those things are elements of what we’ve been shown

 

Like I said I’m looking forward to the system, precisely because of its similarities to the WH system, and hopefully some of the issues with it have been fixed :P

[taikishi]

My complaint about the WH system want the over/under. Please reread what I said. My complaint is it's unreliable. Honestly, you could say my complaint is Faith is a weaker version of stratagems. Limited use like CP, but have to roll to see if it even works.

 

Helk, I'd be happy with 7E's Faith system so long as it was one successful use per unit, meaning failing the Ld roll didn't automatically mean wasting the use.

[Beams]

According to dakka, we are entitled for preferring our current, semi-reliable AoF to a super unreliable 5+ AoF.

 

So, uh, expect even more hate for using your "cheat strategems"

[Servant of Dante]

My complaint about the WH system want the over/under. Please reread what I said. My complaint is it's unreliable. Honestly, you could say my complaint is Faith is a weaker version of stratagems. Limited use like CP, but have to roll to see if it even works.

 

Helk, I'd be happy with 7E's Faith system so long as it was one successful use per unit, meaning failing the Ld roll didn't automatically mean wasting the use.

You said the issues with the WH system were “twofold” (you then described the under over mechanic and the Faithful rule). Then you said you don’t like unreliable AoFs. I was just saying the two issues you mentioned aren’t issues with this. I did read what you said :D

 

I understand liking the current reliable AoFs, I just personally find them boring and I’m hoping that this system will bring more options since they can have a wider variety. With the Index system all AoF effects must be the same power. With a roll-based system you can make weaker and stronger effects with different Devotion values to compensate.

 

But of course we’ll have to wait to see what’s actually there :P

[Purifying Tempest]

As long as the Faith system is designed to deliver the feeling of "A moment of greatness" in place of the normal model rules like And They Shall Know No Fear, Battle Focus, Combat Drugs, etc... I think it will be fine.  Unreliable model traits that may fire a few times a game, but can be absolutely swingy, especially with the previewed Stratagem to deliver that to all your nearest friends.

 

It sounds like Faith actions will have a lot more IMMEDIATE impact when they happen, but unreliable turn-to-turn overall.  How much would a Retributor be priced if she could reliably shoot twice per turn all game?  What would GW make us pay for a Twin Heavy Bolter on a normal Sororitas model?  9 for the model, 18 for the weapon?  36 point tax built into the unit cost there for the privilege of shooting twice, but that tax would be obscured into the model cost (the Retributor would have to rise in cost to accommodate being able to fire her weapon twice, so likely will go up somewhere around the cost of the a Heavy Flamer because there is still the VERY expensive Multi-melta she can take).  Is a Retributor who can fire any weapon she has twice worth about 22 points + whatever gun she gets?

 

That's the problem with the current acts of faith, and to an extent I agree.  Double-tapping Dominions or Seraphim for me is a direct +120 point shooting volume each turn until each of those units are deleted.  HB Rets are about 90 points?  And they're much harder to dig out than Dominions and Seraphim who usually extend way past the safety of other units.  To make matters worse, it isn't just 1 squad frequently doing this.  1 Squad is almost automatic per turn, Celestine becomes practically auto-include because of her own merits plus adding another faith swing, and then Imagifiers are .5 actions/turn.  If I fire an Imagifier, army AoF, and Celestine all in one turn, I can potentially drop upwards of 400 points of free firepower on my opponent (Celestine's melee + Dominions/Seraphims shooting + HB Rets).  This isn't even counting on me popping physical models out of the dirt or removing stray wounds from Celestine to get her wonder twins taking more damage before you can hit the REAL problem.

 

Now imagine trying to balance all of that mess with Order Traits (Bloody Rose Canoness with Blade of Admonition swinging almost as much as a Daemon Prince before doubling with a Faith action... for about a third to a quarter of the cost), Stratagems, and new rules in general for the individual units.  All balanced around the expectation that we have the potential of doubling any given unit's output per turn.  Imagine giving Celestians their wargear back and then saying: hey gals, double up shooting or fighting, whichever, at your whimsy.

 

I think we are being a little entitled to action economy, and that's a REALLY powerful thing to be attached to (remember when Ynnari had it yanked away in a previous rules update?  And it was the end of the world for Ynnari players... who still went on to have a good showing for their army).  They can't allow Acts as implemented now to remain in place AND give us a live codex worth of options.

 

I am not at all advocating that the previewed faith system is the best ever and the salve to all of our ailments, but mainly pointing out how powerful current acts are, and how it would actually block us from getting good stuff because of how overtuned stuff can become so easily.  New faith system is something we have to keep our minds open to, and shutting it down because it is obviously a step back is not healthy for our faction.  Current acts allowed an INDEX army to throw haymakers at powerful codices if the stars aligned, they cannot possibly toss in Stratagems and options and hope to maintain some semblance of appearing objective in army creation.  Which is really what this is about, right?  Perceived favoritism from big daddy GW for Faction/Codex/Model?

[Beams]

Uh it's more about our faction having a very limited tool kit, but being able to utilize it well due to a mechanic that added a lot of flexibility, but the new system feels like it's removed that flexibility.

 

And then getting told that it's super powerful and we should love it, because people don't understand how the army plays