Sisters Preview

[Purifying Tempest]

I agree, Beams.  As is with the current line, it is garbage and definitely going to be a tough transition.  All we're getting is possibly options for existing models, stratagems, traits, relics, etc.  Hardly able to reproduce what we're losing.  I get it.  But they cannot grow our army (ahead of the line relaunch) with Acts of Faith being tied to the past.  Even with the whole beta-dex in our hands, it is only half of the overall puzzle (remember, GW plays a year+ out...).  They're looking at the rules from a holistic: well, they're getting this, that, and the other.  We're fighting over: well, we only have this little bit, and it just doesn't work.  Without the beta-dex, we have maybe 10% of the puzzle, and everyone on both sides are screaming like Chicken Little.

 

I'm not too excited about what I see over on dakka about the beta dex.  I see too many people who clearly have no idea of the army chiming in with stupid comments like how Blessed Bolts is going to turn the meta upside down.  At the same time, I realize that they have an outside view... and while it may not be informed or complete, it is still valid, and they will be submitting feedback as well.  Our responses have to be articulated and measured.  Blessed Bolts will not turn any meta upside down because it does nothing to the current meta.  Blessed Bolts denies us a unit that is good in the meta (Dominions with Meltaguns) for a unit that is good against bad armies (Blessed Bolts punishes 2 or less wound infantry, and models with feel no pain).  Blessed Bolts is our Plasma-not-plasma, if plasma was bad against vehicles.  It mulches things like Terminators, Primaris Marines, Drukhari Infantry, and nurgle daemons.  Half of those models don't appear in the meta.  One of them are rarely off of a transport to really get hammered by Blessed Bolts, and they can maneuver away from that 12" line pretty easily.  And the other may have a legitimate gripe, but probably needed someone to put a curb on some of their antics.  And finally... even at its BEST, Blessed Bolts affects 5 models of ours a turn, but with options as is... most likely only ever going to tap 3 models (BSS with 3 Stormbolters).  The stratagem is awesome on paper, but not going to be doing any heavy shifting on the meta, so... why would it really need to be nerfed?

 

Countering with: Blessed Bolts needs to be OP because "muh acts r garbage!" isn't going to get us very far in the long game.

 

Not saying that's what we're doing, but clutching the pearls and ardently defending the old Acts of Faith system, that is REALLY strong and hard to balance, can give that "we want our cake, and want to eat it, too" appearance.

[Slasher956]

although one thing ... it looks like melta guns have gone up by 2 points across all factions (14 now)

[Purifying Tempest]

although one thing ... it looks like melta guns have gone up by 2 points across all factions (14 now)

 

That's down 3, not up 2.  They are currently at 17 if memory serves.

[Slasher956]

oh ... heck... yep your right....

 

wow!!!

[A.T.]

It sounds like Faith actions will have a lot more IMMEDIATE impact when they happen

 

I'm not sure how you've reached that conclusion. The only faith power we've seen so far is 'fight twice in the fight phase' - which the sisters can already do. And this power is at the top end of the scale with the 5+ activation roll.

[Mekhitar]

Flamers, heavy flamers, melta, multimelta, and inferno pistols have all gone down between 1 and 5 pts. I know it is not unexpected but it will make playing the new Sisters a little better than they would be otherwise.

[Warsmith Aznable]

 

I'm not too excited about what I see over on dakka about the beta dex.  I see too many people who clearly have no idea of the army chiming in with stupid comments (SNIP) and they will be submitting feedback as well.

 

This is my least favourite aspect about what's happening with the new codex. Whenever someone who doesn't actually play my army looks at my codex and tells me what I should be doing instead it's never been good advice. I worry about people submitting feedback to GW based on the same sort of cold reading.

[ERJAK]

According to dakka, we are entitled for preferring our current, semi-reliable AoF to a super unreliable 5+ AoF.

 

So, uh, expect even more hate for using your "cheat strategems"

According to Dakka: everyone who isn't me is a WAAC piece of gak who shouldn't be alive any more. Those people are animals. I only go there because I don't have to care about their feelings.

[ERJAK]

 

 

I'm not too excited about what I see over on dakka about the beta dex.  I see too many people who clearly have no idea of the army chiming in with stupid comments (SNIP) and they will be submitting feedback as well.

 

This is my least favourite aspect about what's happening with the new codex. Whenever someone who doesn't actually play my army looks at my codex and tells me what I should be doing instead it's never been good advice. I worry about people submitting feedback to GW based on the same sort of cold reading.

 

It is infuriating. Most of those people couldn't name 2 Non-Celestine SoB units with a gun to their head and they're trying to tell use how the army plays.

 

Point Changes relevant to us from the leaks I saw for other armies: Inferno pistols down 2, HF down 3, Melta down 3, regular flamer down 3. No changes to other races storm bolters. Multimelta down 2, Twin MM down 14

[Mekhitar]

Word is your army starts wth 3 faith points, and OoOML gains 1 every time a unit dies. See the CA leak thread for more.

[ValourousHeart]

Anyone know how we are supposed to give feedback?

[Aqui]

Anyone know how we are supposed to give feedback?

One of the replies to the FB page announcing the preview states there is an e-mail address at the front of the book to send input to :)

[Purifying Tempest]

 

It sounds like Faith actions will have a lot more IMMEDIATE impact when they happen

 

I'm not sure how you've reached that conclusion. The only faith power we've seen so far is 'fight twice in the fight phase' - which the sisters can already do. And this power is at the top end of the scale with the 5+ activation roll.

 

 

Current acts of faith extra attack phase IS NOT the same as The Passion.

 

The effect of The Passion is in all instances better than the current system.

 

Currently:

 

Celestine charges, she makes 6-7 attacks.  Opponent can strike back.  Next turn, if Celestine and her target are still present, and the target DOES NOT disengage her, the fight during the fight phase, again.  Now at the top of my turn, if both parties are still alive AND engaged, I can attack during the Act of Faith phase.

 

If Celestine is charged (someone probably made a mistake), I still have to wait the entirety of the fight phase before I get my free swings at anything alive.

 

The Passion:

 

If activated, The Passion allows Celestine (or any unit) to immediately double the attacks they're throwing, AS ASSAULTERS, immediately during the Fight phase.

 

This means Celestine throws 6-7 punches, then your opponent can interrupt for 2 CP, and then she can immediately swing again.  There is no waiting up to 1.5 turns to get those swings, there is no opportunity for your opponent to walk away.  All of that damage is front-loaded into her attack phase.  What this also means is that Bloody Rose Order trait and The Passion stack amazingly as well, as that +1 STR and +1 Attack are echoed across another set of attacks.  Your opponent has to burn 2 CP to get anything to strike back, otherwise it will likely be burnt away before he can strike.

 

The Passion (activation aside) is absolutely stronger than swinging again with an AoF currently.  There is no way that can be argued.

[robofish7591]

 

 

I'm not too excited about what I see over on dakka about the beta dex.  I see too many people who clearly have no idea of the army chiming in with stupid comments (SNIP) and they will be submitting feedback as well.

 

This is my least favourite aspect about what's happening with the new codex. Whenever someone who doesn't actually play my army looks at my codex and tells me what I should be doing instead it's never been good advice. I worry about people submitting feedback to GW based on the same sort of cold reading.

 

 

I plan on providing my feedback with specific examples from games, mainly so they actually know that I play the army (I would strongly encourage all of us to do the same too!).  Sending army lists with feedback could possible help too.  Unfortunately there will probably be a lot of people who give bad feedback because the army thrashed them, I am hoping that we, as people who are actually invested in the faction, will be able to give enough quality feedback to stand out against all the knee-jerk reactions and negativity.

[ERJAK]

 

 

It sounds like Faith actions will have a lot more IMMEDIATE impact when they happen

 

I'm not sure how you've reached that conclusion. The only faith power we've seen so far is 'fight twice in the fight phase' - which the sisters can already do. And this power is at the top end of the scale with the 5+ activation roll.

 

 

Current acts of faith extra attack phase IS NOT the same as The Passion.

 

The effect of The Passion is in all instances better than the current system.

 

Currently:

 

Celestine charges, she makes 6-7 attacks.  Opponent can strike back.  Next turn, if Celestine and her target are still present, and the target DOES NOT disengage her, the fight during the fight phase, again.  Now at the top of my turn, if both parties are still alive AND engaged, I can attack during the Act of Faith phase.

 

If Celestine is charged (someone probably made a mistake), I still have to wait the entirety of the fight phase before I get my free swings at anything alive.

 

The Passion:

 

If activated, The Passion allows Celestine (or any unit) to immediately double the attacks they're throwing, AS ASSAULTERS, immediately during the Fight phase.

 

This means Celestine throws 6-7 punches, then your opponent can interrupt for 2 CP, and then she can immediately swing again.  There is no waiting up to 1.5 turns to get those swings, there is no opportunity for your opponent to walk away.  All of that damage is front-loaded into her attack phase.  What this also means is that Bloody Rose Order trait and The Passion stack amazingly as well, as that +1 STR and +1 Attack are echoed across another set of attacks.  Your opponent has to burn 2 CP to get anything to strike back, otherwise it will likely be burnt away before he can strike.

 

The Passion (activation aside) is absolutely stronger than swinging again with an AoF currently.  There is no way that can be argued.

 

With the current AoF I can get a free round of swings before moving, which will either let me clear out the unit I'm against and charge something else, or attack and retreat if I'm stuck in with something scary.

 

Your argument is very compelling and is certainly an example of the strength of the double fight(although we don't know for sure if they will get to attack without the enemy responding, other armies with similar abilities have to wait) but it's not 100% better. There are pros and cons, just as with the changes to shooting. The biggest thing is that it will definitely alter HOW we use it.

[ERJAK]

Word is your army starts wth 3 faith points, and OoOML gains 1 every time a unit dies. See the CA leak thread for more.

Gonna depend on how good the buff characters are to determine which is better between this and Ebon Chalice. Chalice has the clear lead with AoFs being a 3-5 roll natively, but if you could get the 5 roll down to a 3 on a fairly consistent basis without gimping your army, OoOML will be stronger because of how it props up the late game. It also rewards MSU which I appreciate.

 

 

 

I'm not too excited about what I see over on dakka about the beta dex.  I see too many people who clearly have no idea of the army chiming in with stupid comments (SNIP) and they will be submitting feedback as well.

 

This is my least favourite aspect about what's happening with the new codex. Whenever someone who doesn't actually play my army looks at my codex and tells me what I should be doing instead it's never been good advice. I worry about people submitting feedback to GW based on the same sort of cold reading.

 

 

I plan on providing my feedback with specific examples from games, mainly so they actually know that I play the army (I would strongly encourage all of us to do the same too!).  Sending army lists with feedback could possible help too.  Unfortunately there will probably be a lot of people who give bad feedback because the army thrashed them, I am hoping that we, as people who are actually invested in the faction, will be able to give enough quality feedback to stand out against all the knee-jerk reactions and negativity.

 

Also send pictures of your army with that day's newspaper next to it, just to prove you're not totally full of it.

[The Unseen]

 

 

With the current AoF I can get a free round of swings before moving, which will either let me clear out the unit I'm against and charge something else, or attack and retreat if I'm stuck in with something scary.

 

Your argument is very compelling and is certainly an example of the strength of the double fight(although we don't know for sure if they will get to attack without the enemy responding, other armies with similar abilities have to wait) but it's not 100% better. There are pros and cons, just as with the changes to shooting. The biggest thing is that it will definitely alter HOW we use it.

 

Except you could be getting the free round of swings THE TURN BEFORE INSTEAD. The mechanics of it are massively improved. The activation however, is notably dodgier. The shooting one is a wash, shooting before movement can be really really good, like clearing a chaff unit before movement. But on the other side, shooting twice with a unit you just put into range by moving is notably better than shooting nothing, moving, then shooting again. So, a wash. Moving twice is the same, since "before the turn starts" or just moving during the movement phase is functionally identical, at least, I don't see a situation where its different, could be wrong.

[Purifying Tempest]

I plan on using it very much like described with a Canoness with Blade of Admonition.  Celestine doesn't wear my colors

 

I think a Canoness can still rock 6-7 attacks, but Celestine would still do more raw attacks in the same settings (not by many).  Canoness does have the benefit of rerolling her 1's.  Don't know about everyone here, but my Celestine is a magnet for hit and wound rolls of 1, lol.

 

Edit: I am still convinced that Ebon Chalice is the way to go if you want to win/compete.  OoOML is good, but I would rather have to fight less with the mechanic to make it work, than have more opportunities to fight with it.  Bloody Rose meshes well with other rules and scenarios, but have to deal with the faith mechanic dodging them, and will rely more on upgrades and iconography to get the boosts to make them more reliable (pay points instead of their Order Trait to do what Ebon Chalice gets overall).  Valorous Heart seems like the loser currently, but even then, mech-sister lists can probably get a good bit of mileage out of it.  Adding 1-3 wounds on Repressors is probably a pretty decent deal for mech heavy lists.

[The Unseen]

 

With the current AoF I can get a free round of swings before moving, which will either let me clear out the unit I'm against and charge something else, or attack and retreat if I'm stuck in with something scary.

 

Your argument is very compelling and is certainly an example of the strength of the double fight(although we don't know for sure if they will get to attack without the enemy responding, other armies with similar abilities have to wait) but it's not 100% better. There are pros and cons, just as with the changes to shooting. The biggest thing is that it will definitely alter HOW we use it.

 

Except you could be getting the free round of swings THE TURN BEFORE INSTEAD. The mechanics of it are massively improved. The activation however, is notably dodgier. The shooting one is a wash, shooting before movement can be really really good, like clearing a chaff unit before movement. But on the other side, shooting twice with a unit you just put into range by moving is notably better than shooting nothing, moving, then shooting again. So, a wash. Moving twice is the same, since "before the turn starts" or just moving during the movement phase is functionally identical, at least, I don't see a situation where its different, could be wrong.

[ERJAK]

 

 

With the current AoF I can get a free round of swings before moving, which will either let me clear out the unit I'm against and charge something else, or attack and retreat if I'm stuck in with something scary.

 

Your argument is very compelling and is certainly an example of the strength of the double fight(although we don't know for sure if they will get to attack without the enemy responding, other armies with similar abilities have to wait) but it's not 100% better. There are pros and cons, just as with the changes to shooting. The biggest thing is that it will definitely alter HOW we use it.

 

Except you could be getting the free round of swings THE TURN BEFORE INSTEAD. The mechanics of it are massively improved. The activation however, is notably dodgier. The shooting one is a wash, shooting before movement can be really really good, like clearing a chaff unit before movement. But on the other side, shooting twice with a unit you just put into range by moving is notably better than shooting nothing, moving, then shooting again. So, a wash. Moving twice is the same, since "before the turn starts" or just moving during the movement phase is functionally identical, at least, I don't see a situation where its different, could be wrong.

 

Not a wash. Clearing chaff with double shooting Heavy Bolters and non-rapid fire(because obviously) storm bolters is nice and all, but it's nowhere near as useful as double shooting our bigger guns, or even actually Rapid fire range stormbolters, especially considering we can hop out of a transport before we do it. Small loss, big gain.

 

The big thing I'm worried about is that the 'additional movement' AoF they described in the CA overview stream is the same +3" that leaked before. Because that is TRASH. That's not worth a faith point 80% of the time, even if it goes off automatically. The other 20% it's the exact extra distance you need to cap an objective or whatever, but +3 inches is incredibly terrible compared to what we had before. If that's the case, I kinda feel like Celestine should be down to like 150-180 with gemini. Trajann and Draigo are both sub-200 now, Celestine certainly shouldn't be 70pts+ more than them when she can't move 24 anymore.

 

And if the move one is nerfed like that, what are they gonna do to the shooting one? +1" range?

 

Another question: What are the other 2 new AoFs? You figure fight twice, shoot bonus, bonus move, heal/revive...and then what? Probably something with Morale(snooze) and a wildcard.

[Purifying Tempest]

I think we're comparing the "Pile in and Fight" Act of Faith to The Passion.  All of the other Acts of Faith haven't been disclosed, so it would all be total speculation at this point.

 

But we can compare the before and after for fighting, and I believe in that 1 very specific instance (activation aside) that The Passion is as advertised: more powerful than the previous incarnation of fighting an additional at the start of my turn.

 

I honestly cannot comment on any of the other Acts because we don't know their effects or Faith Test Values to make any real observations other than that... Faith Testing at all is a direct nerf to the current system, and Faith Point Generation is looking like it took a nerf, as well, compared to the current system.

[Mekhitar]

Celestine’s data sheet does not have an order right now, guys.

 

Also, my knee jerk reaction build is ooml for chaff, to die and give me faith points, backed up my Ebon Chalice in the heavy hitters to maximize my chance of getting them off.

 

ETA: I will miss heroically intervening with Celestine and getting 3 rounds of swings before the enemy can react!

[ERJAK]

Celestine’s data sheet does not have an order right now, guys.

 

Also, my knee jerk reaction build is ooml for chaff, to die and give me faith points, backed up my Ebon Chalice in the heavy hitters to maximize my chance of getting them off.

 

ETA: I will miss heroically intervening with Celestine and getting 3 rounds of swings before the enemy can react!

Thank you for reminding me that we can do that!. Yeah, small OoOML battalions or a cheap brigade for suicide chaff and then a big outrider or whatever of ebon chalice for the divebomb. I was already planning on building multiple SoB armies at once so that shouldn't even be an issue.

 

Is that the Index datasheet? Or did the CA datasheet leak? Because if it's the index datasheet it doesn't have UNIQUE on it either, so I'd say we're still probably okay. She'll likely be OoOML, which works fine because you'd want a battalion of them in most lists for the extra AoFs even in mech lists(as you so astutely observed). Unless the AoFs are all terrible now outside of the passion.

[Mekhitar]

I noticed it when I realized my canoness doesn’t hand Celestine reroll 1s to hit as she doesn’t have an <order>. This is the old data sheet.

[Purifying Tempest]

I'm wondering if Celestine is going to get the Phoenix Lord treatment of not busting any particular Order she gets slotting into, but not having an Order trait of her own.  Thus she can be powerful and never unfairly so for one order, or prevent players from using one of our strongest tools in the army in their non-Celestine's-Order detachment.  Effectively, it could force people to blow 1 CP on a Support Auxiliary Detachment or a tax for making a legit detachment for her to slot into.  Pretty sure they're just going to Phoenix Lord her and be done with the whole thing (Sorry Martyred Lady players :( )