Sisters Preview

[Grand Marshal Solomon]

Celestine can still pass off wounds to the Geminae and then heal them/bring one back.

[taikishi]

Except before if both Geminae died she could still bring one back since they were part of her unit. Now, if both Geminae are dead she can't bring any back.

[Mekhitar]

I’m so disappointed :(

[taikishi]

I'm not just disappointed, I'm angry.

[Purifying Tempest]

I'm still digging into the podcasts and listening to what I can... Saturday is one of the few days I can sleep in, so I wasn't nearly as excited to get up and listen to it 3 hours ago, heh.

 

But after reading through what's been reported here, I can kind of see where design is going.  Though I only keep hearing about Celestine and Acts of Faith, so my picture is VERY incomplete.

 

1) The double move is WAY too powerful.  It takes a savvy player to counter it, and even then it is usually only halfway effective.  Seraphim, Dominion, and Celestine having the ability to be in the opponent's DEPLOYMENT ZONE turn 1... come on, someone has to admit that was just a little powerful.  My good friend always says he cannot win during deployment, but he can most certainly lose during deployment verses my army.  And my Sororitas army is the only army that can do that to him.  The double moves (I also use IG and a healthy dose of Move! Move! Move! to absolutely dominate his half of the table with bodies on turn 1)  are really powerful, and can bring about scenarios where other players have simply lost before the game ever began.  Again, this mechanic is stupid hard to balance, and not good for the health of the game or the development of the army.

 

2) The double shoot is actually not as powerful as the double move in my experiences.  Mostly because what can double shoot isn't particularly vile.  The main target of this is the Retributors with Heavy Bolters.  Now, that being said, my HB Rets do A LOT of work.  I feel that in many games they do a touch too much work, and they start feeling like Ynnari Dark Reapers (toned down quite a bit, but...).  I cannot build a list currently and say: well, this can replace the Retributors.  I honestly think the AoF to shoot should have been 5+ and a double shoot, and the fight should be 4+ since melee is pretty garbage this edition.  But that's not the reality.  What we did get, though, was Prescience (Chaos Space Marine psychic power to add 1 to hit rolls), and it brings in some pretty interesting things.  It is objectively worse that a double shoot, but helps get some efficiency out of those shots, and may even bring the Multi-melta back to life.  Negates the -1 penalty for moving, or hits on 2+s if stationary, Canoness let's them reroll 1's.  I've seen silly things with +1 to rolls that makes that rule deceptively good.  And I don't believe it was particularly hard to land?

 

3+4) The healing and psychic acts are decently good.  Not game breaking, but decently good.  Having virtually no protection from psychic powers, yet gaining a 50/50 shield vs mortal wounds seems to be handy in a pinch.  Same with the reviving one.  Another HIGHLY situational stratagem that is only as good as its timing.  Continue to feed extra wounds to the Canoness with the Blade of Admonition or revive a special/heavy weapon that died in a squad can swing the game a little bit.  It won't take over the game, but both of these should enhance the army in very subtle ways.

 

5) Morale?  Could have a place on large Seraphim or Troop squads.  1 act vs 2 CP.  I mean... cannot argue that it is worse.  And worse case scenario is that you get a Faith Test, maybe a reroll, and then you can still burn 2 CP for Insane Bravery if you REALLY need to save that larger squad (lost 7 Seraphim and only have 2 Inferno Pistol and a Plasma Superior left).  I cannot argue that it is worse the Insane Bravery, as it comes from different resources and saves very valuable CP.

 

6) The Passion... I've been over this before.

 

It'll be interesting, and I'm going to be playing some games with it to get a better opinion of the system before getting to critical.  But at the BEST, I see these as very subtle things that won't directly win the game itself, but each one you pass... will have a bit of an overall impact on the game.  If I may inject a little bit of an alternate view:

 

Previously, Acts of Faith were the definition of the army.  We had no stratagems (and even the ones in CA last year were pretty... okay), our army was a bland mess of units supported by some really powerful gimmicks.  Those tricks were too powerful on their own merit, and could not possibly be balanced with the addition of traits and Stratagems.  Our stratagems would have had to have been piss poor in order to not make the army a broken mess of gack that would have been resoundingly rebuked by the community.  I honestly think that a codex level army with Ynnari-like action economy (I argue better, because we don't have triggers for ours and have more control over when they happen under the current system) would have been scorned by the community and we would have had really tough times finding matches... and the army would have been bandwagoned to ugly levels.

 

The designers look like they acknowledged that and stepped things WAY back.  They're now... support.  Like psychic powers.  There to enhance the army, not define it.  That leaves the design team with a much wider window to work within to fill out stratagems and units to make the army have an identity outside of one mechanic that either breaks or dooms the entire thing.

 

I'm trying to keep a more optimistic view here, because overall the design team has done good work in 8th.  There are a lot more usable codices than there are useless ones.  And even the best of the best are just a FAQ away from getting pulled back in line, they aren't so far ahead in the pacing that massive nerfs are required... no matter how much people hate Dark Reapers.  Even when sweeping nerfs were required, quickly, they fixed the problem (maybe a little too ham-handed with the Flying Tyrant, but the problem was indeed solved).  So I am going to break my models out (they've had a week off :) ) and get them back out on the table and get some games going with them!  We'll see how bad this codex is!

 

Ps:  I've not heard stratagems yet, so I am 100% blind on what that side of the house offers.

[Ficinus]

The fact that half of the Orders revolve around buffing the lacklustre Acts of Faith system is disappointing. Bloody Rose all the way. My Sisters are already Red.

 

Also, arco-flails are AP-1 now, according to Striking Scorpion 82. So, that is awesome! The best news that hadn't already been revealed.

[Mekhitar]

Yeah, the entire design focus of Sisters seems to be around acts of faith, but the acts themselves are not that great. It’s that combo that is really a kick in the stomach.

 

Do germinae have a reroll bubble?

[Beams]

Our acts were the only thing keeping us useful. They want us to be a power armor horde? Fine, but all of our weapons sub the heavy Bolter and multimelta are 12" range. The double move was the only thing keeping us able to engage, and the double shoot made up for a lack in weapons. We don't have plasma, we don't have grav, we don't even have autocannon or missile launchers.

 

+1 to hit isn't equal to a fire twice, especially when it's harder to do.

 

Unless they cut points massively, were screwed.

[CaptainMarsh]

I hate the limitations on Acts and the Acts themselves are very uninspiring. 

[Mekhitar]

Hubs agrees with my assessment and says “the army is gutted” and “I guess they don’t want to sell Sisters models”.

 

Aside from how hard they stepped all over the acts of faith in power - and then made us get fewer of them per game - and then made them harder to get off - and built most of the sisters rules and upgrades over making those mediocre acts of faith possible to get off - and then didn’t even give us decent stratagems to compensate...

 

Are we the only army whose Codex is so much worse than its index? Hubs had been planning to make this the year he took Sisters to ITC but... I don’t think that is going to happen :(

[ERJAK]

I still think you're underestimating the power of Celestines sword.  A Heavy Flamer and a STR 7 2D sword ringing someone's bell 6 times.  In melee she is still nasty.  I never used the Geminae, so that won't change anything for me... my Celestine sits as a Living Saint in my army, and she doesn't have body guards =P

The sword is basically the same as a powerfist on a Space marine captain and the heavy flamer is and has always been a very small benefit. She also dies to a stiff breeze without her Gemini and extra wound. Being stuck reviving where you fell is a massive hit. You're also forgetting the part where she lost at least 9" of movement and that it's almost impossible for her to use the passion reliably now. 

 

She's a solid 20-40pts overcosted like this and is a total shadow of her former self. She still fared better than the gemini did though.

[taikishi]

Yeah, the entire design focus of Sisters seems to be around acts of faith, but the acts themselves are not that great. It’s that combo that is really a kick in the stomach.

 

Do germinae have a reroll bubble?

 

No. They snipe wounds for Celestine on a 2+ if she's within 3"

[ERJAK]

Hubs agrees with my assessment and says “the army is gutted” and “I guess they don’t want to sell Sisters models”.

 

Aside from how hard they stepped all over the acts of faith in power - and then made us get fewer of them per game - and then made them harder to get off - and built most of the sisters rules and upgrades over making those mediocre acts of faith possible to get off - and then didn’t even give us decent stratagems to compensate...

 

Are we the only army whose Codex is so much worse than its index? Hubs had been planning to make this the year he took Sisters to ITC but... I don’t think that is going to happen

The ONLY thing going for us is that Vessels can extend AoFs to Exorcists and Immolators. That's it though. That's all we got.

 

Start Sending those feedback emails people, we might be able to get some headway before the CA FAQ comes out.

[CaptainMarsh]

I will wait for the book to drop. They may possibly not even listen to feedback before then.

[ERJAK]

I'm still digging into the podcasts and listening to what I can... Saturday is one of the few days I can sleep in, so I wasn't nearly as excited to get up and listen to it 3 hours ago, heh.

 

But after reading through what's been reported here, I can kind of see where design is going.  Though I only keep hearing about Celestine and Acts of Faith, so my picture is VERY incomplete.

 

1) The double move is WAY too powerful.  It takes a savvy player to counter it, and even then it is usually only halfway effective.  Seraphim, Dominion, and Celestine having the ability to be in the opponent's DEPLOYMENT ZONE turn 1... come on, someone has to admit that was just a little powerful.  My good friend always says he cannot win during deployment, but he can most certainly lose during deployment verses my army.  And my Sororitas army is the only army that can do that to him.  The double moves (I also use IG and a healthy dose of Move! Move! Move! to absolutely dominate his half of the table with bodies on turn 1)  are really powerful, and can bring about scenarios where other players have simply lost before the game ever began.  Again, this mechanic is stupid hard to balance, and not good for the health of the game or the development of the army.

 

2) The double shoot is actually not as powerful as the double move in my experiences.  Mostly because what can double shoot isn't particularly vile.  The main target of this is the Retributors with Heavy Bolters.  Now, that being said, my HB Rets do A LOT of work.  I feel that in many games they do a touch too much work, and they start feeling like Ynnari Dark Reapers (toned down quite a bit, but...).  I cannot build a list currently and say: well, this can replace the Retributors.  I honestly think the AoF to shoot should have been 5+ and a double shoot, and the fight should be 4+ since melee is pretty garbage this edition.  But that's not the reality.  What we did get, though, was Prescience (Chaos Space Marine psychic power to add 1 to hit rolls), and it brings in some pretty interesting things.  It is objectively worse that a double shoot, but helps get some efficiency out of those shots, and may even bring the Multi-melta back to life.  Negates the -1 penalty for moving, or hits on 2+s if stationary, Canoness let's them reroll 1's.  I've seen silly things with +1 to rolls that makes that rule deceptively good.  And I don't believe it was particularly hard to land?

 

3+4) The healing and psychic acts are decently good.  Not game breaking, but decently good.  Having virtually no protection from psychic powers, yet gaining a 50/50 shield vs mortal wounds seems to be handy in a pinch.  Same with the reviving one.  Another HIGHLY situational stratagem that is only as good as its timing.  Continue to feed extra wounds to the Canoness with the Blade of Admonition or revive a special/heavy weapon that died in a squad can swing the game a little bit.  It won't take over the game, but both of these should enhance the army in very subtle ways.

 

5) Morale?  Could have a place on large Seraphim or Troop squads.  1 act vs 2 CP.  I mean... cannot argue that it is worse.  And worse case scenario is that you get a Faith Test, maybe a reroll, and then you can still burn 2 CP for Insane Bravery if you REALLY need to save that larger squad (lost 7 Seraphim and only have 2 Inferno Pistol and a Plasma Superior left).  I cannot argue that it is worse the Insane Bravery, as it comes from different resources and saves very valuable CP.

 

6) The Passion... I've been over this before.

 

It'll be interesting, and I'm going to be playing some games with it to get a better opinion of the system before getting to critical.  But at the BEST, I see these as very subtle things that won't directly win the game itself, but each one you pass... will have a bit of an overall impact on the game.  If I may inject a little bit of an alternate view:

 

Previously, Acts of Faith were the definition of the army.  We had no stratagems (and even the ones in CA last year were pretty... okay), our army was a bland mess of units supported by some really powerful gimmicks.  Those tricks were too powerful on their own merit, and could not possibly be balanced with the addition of traits and Stratagems.  Our stratagems would have had to have been piss poor in order to not make the army a broken mess of gack that would have been resoundingly rebuked by the community.  I honestly think that a codex level army with Ynnari-like action economy (I argue better, because we don't have triggers for ours and have more control over when they happen under the current system) would have been scorned by the community and we would have had really tough times finding matches... and the army would have been bandwagoned to ugly levels.

 

The designers look like they acknowledged that and stepped things WAY back.  They're now... support.  Like psychic powers.  There to enhance the army, not define it.  That leaves the design team with a much wider window to work within to fill out stratagems and units to make the army have an identity outside of one mechanic that either breaks or dooms the entire thing.

 

I'm trying to keep a more optimistic view here, because overall the design team has done good work in 8th.  There are a lot more usable codices than there are useless ones.  And even the best of the best are just a FAQ away from getting pulled back in line, they aren't so far ahead in the pacing that massive nerfs are required... no matter how much people hate Dark Reapers.  Even when sweeping nerfs were required, quickly, they fixed the problem (maybe a little too ham-handed with the Flying Tyrant, but the problem was indeed solved).  So I am going to break my models out (they've had a week off ) and get them back out on the table and get some games going with them!  We'll see how bad this codex is!

 

Ps:  I've not heard stratagems yet, so I am 100% blind on what that side of the house offers.

Almost ALL of the stratagems revolve around Acts of Faith. Most are used to get more Faith points we don't need and can't use.

 

There are some gimmick strats like buffing arcos but they die on a roll of a 6 or Repentia doing mortal wounds when they die, but just about every other stratagem revolves around the frankly terrible new act of Faith system.

 

The thing about this is you're looking at half the picture and being like 'oh, this is just supposed to support the army right?' NO. Because as you read the whole book you realize that they 100% intend for acts of faith to be the be all end all of the book. They want you using Vessels of the empire every turn on as many units as possible. They want you dedicating your army building and your CP to getting even MORE acts of faith. Most people won't be able to spend the 9 or so the average SoB player STARTS with.

 

The only problem is, there isn't anything to use them on most of the time and even when there is, the  bonus is so small that it doesn't even matter. Even hitting EVERY unit in your army with +1 to hit INCLUDING Exorcists and Immolators isn't enough of a bonus to justify the incredible amount of waste you generate just trying to do so. The designers want SO badly for SoB to be a Guilleman blob, but didn't actually give us any of the power of a Guilleman blob.

 

As it stands, there is no concievable way that an average Codex list could beat an average index list. The index is head and shoulders superior as a whole, even AFTER the limited point drops and buffs to exorcists and Arcos and Penitent Engines.

[taikishi]

Much as I disdain 8E, I'm going to try to see if I can find some people to play me in two games next weekend - once with the Index list and Celestine at 200pts but everything else using CA points, and again with the Beta Dex.

 

If anyone has any suggestions on list building, throw 'em my way. I'm fairly limited in models atm (7 Seraphim, old Celestine, Geminae and new Celestine not assembled yet, etc.) but my friends won't have issues with proxies.

[dracpanzer]

 

My point about Geminae being moved to Elites is that they could be used without Celestine (nearby or at all) and basicly become a 25pt Canoness with jump pack. Perhaps no longer being named character they can take Relics, and pull off their own AoF and pull off vessel amongst your Seraphim squads. We were fielding 40pt Imagifers before, now we get 25pt Jump Pack Palatines.

 

The biggest problem with the strategy you've suggested is...what AoF? And what units, because seraphim aren't a great option. Dominions don't want to be that close to each other, Seraphim aren't very good without the ability to double move and will likely never get a chance to shoot if they rock up with a gemini behind them. Even if 3 units of inferno pistol seraphim DID get within 6" of a valuable target while also staying close enough to each other and to a miraculously still alive 2 wound battle sister, would the +1 to hit they get be worth 3CP, purchasing 3 likely overcosted units, AND spending 25pts on essentially nothing? Repentia and Crusaders are still not going to see any play and even if they did you'd just use a priest or mistress. Retributors and Battle sisters will just use a canoness for reroll 1s. There's no niche for a gemini to fit in, even as a cheap, but still wildly overpriced, jumppack canoness.

 

+1 to hit wouldn't be bad with inferno pistols. Pass the AoF with a character and vessel them out. Imagifers had 4 wounds as elites. Geminae might be going to the same, at this point nobody is sure. I'm sorry everyone is looking at this in such a negative light. I'm not saying it won't be worse when all is said and done. Just trying to see a way to work with what we're getting. I can at least find solace in knowing I wasn't one of those beating folks over the head about how we were going to get a new codex and everything was going to be super. I've played Sisters in every edition since they came out and have learned to roll with the punches from update to update. A 25 point character with a jump pack, possibly four wounds, power sword and the ability to up her SoF when she's hanging with Celestine isn't over-costed.

[Purifying Tempest]

Well, if the doom is this high with you guys... I'll gladly buy your old models, lol.

 

I mean, you're all lending a lot of credibility to the larger community who thinks Sororitas players are a bunch of entitled nannies who shriek when anything doesn't go their way

 

I'm still trying to find a good review of the Relics and Stratagems, but the Acts are exactly where I thought they would be.  More in line of where they need to be.

 

Ministorum units are the clear winners here, which is hilarious to me.  Arcos are going to be NASTY, Repentia are going to be solid as well.  There's going to be a lot more strength from Shield of Faith.  Armies ranging from 4+ invuls all around to 2d6 deny the witch all over the place.  Celestians sound like they're still poo.  Celestine was cleaned up and received a much needed pass to make her not OP.  Even at 160, she still has effectively 12 wounds without the problem have actually having 12 wounds.  She's a much better force multiplier than an attack dog now.  That sucks for me, because attack dog Celestine really fits the Bloody Rose style, but is better for the army overall, as force multiplication wins games.

 

I'm pretty convinced there is a LOT of overreaction going on here.

 

Edit: Hilarious that the player from the hot-headed order known for overreaction is the one not biting in on the initial "all this sucks and needs to be burnt until the ashes are burnt, and then burnt again".

 

Edit-Edit: Penitent Engines and Exorcists are now a thing, too.  People should rightly fear Exorcists again.  10 point drop and the missile went up to d6 damage per hit... come on :)

[Aqui]

I'm not going to speak for everyone else, but I'm going to wait until the book is in my hands before jumping to any decisions about where Sisters lie as an army. Passions are running high and its understandable. But, despite all of this information, we still dont have the full picture yet, so I reserve judgment. It's not going to stop me from playing Sisters in any case. It just means the e-mail I send eventually will contain a lot of feedback.

 

Faith is its own reward.

[taikishi]

I'm still digging into the podcasts and listening to what I can... Saturday is one of the few days I can sleep in, so I wasn't nearly as excited to get up and listen to it 3 hours ago, heh.

 

But after reading through what's been reported here, I can kind of see where design is going.  Though I only keep hearing about Celestine and Acts of Faith, so my picture is VERY incomplete.

 

1) The double move is WAY too powerful.  It takes a savvy player to counter it, and even then it is usually only halfway effective.  Seraphim, Dominion, and Celestine having the ability to be in the opponent's DEPLOYMENT ZONE turn 1... come on, someone has to admit that was just a little powerful.  My good friend always says he cannot win during deployment, but he can most certainly lose during deployment verses my army.  And my Sororitas army is the only army that can do that to him.  The double moves (I also use IG and a healthy dose of Move! Move! Move! to absolutely dominate his half of the table with bodies on turn 1)  are really powerful, and can bring about scenarios where other players have simply lost before the game ever began.  Again, this mechanic is stupid hard to balance, and not good for the health of the game or the development of the army.

 

It was also at most two units a turn. Now it's once a turn, whether or not you succeeded the roll. +3" on a 4+ once a turn is fairly weak for all of our units, especially for Celestine, her Geminae (who don't benefit from it now if Celestine gets it and visa versa) and Seraphim. Especially since none of those units can get Similacrums and only the Seraphim can take the Ebon Chalice conviction.

 

 

 

 

2) The double shoot is actually not as powerful as the double move in my experiences.  Mostly because what can double shoot isn't particularly vile.  The main target of this is the Retributors with Heavy Bolters.  Now, that being said, my HB Rets do A LOT of work.  I feel that in many games they do a touch too much work, and they start feeling like Ynnari Dark Reapers (toned down quite a bit, but...).  I cannot build a list currently and say: well, this can replace the Retributors.  I honestly think the AoF to shoot should have been 5+ and a double shoot, and the fight should be 4+ since melee is pretty garbage this edition.  But that's not the reality.  What we did get, though, was Prescience (Chaos Space Marine psychic power to add 1 to hit rolls), and it brings in some pretty interesting things.  It is objectively worse that a double shoot, but helps get some efficiency out of those shots, and may even bring the Multi-melta back to life.  Negates the -1 penalty for moving, or hits on 2+s if stationary, Canoness let's them reroll 1's.  I've seen silly things with +1 to rolls that makes that rule deceptively good.  And I don't believe it was particularly hard to land?

 

4+. Anything worse than a 3+ is unreliable from personal experiences unless you can do it in volume, and since only one unit per turn can attempt Divine Guidance it's not "hey, one of my HB ret squads is getting +1 to hit and the other two shoot as normal because they failed" but "oh, look, I failed. None of my HB rets get +1 to hit this turn."

 

 

 

The healing and psychic acts are decently good.  Not game breaking, but decently good.  Having virtually no protection from psychic powers, yet gaining a 50/50 shield vs mortal wounds seems to be handy in a pinch.

 

Except:

 

1. you have to use it at the start of the psychic phase so you're telegraphing which unit gets it

2. can still only test it once a turn so if you fail no one gets the buff

 

 

 

Same with the reviving one.  Another HIGHLY situational stratagem that is only as good as its timing.  Continue to feed extra wounds to the Canoness with the Blade of Admonition or revive a special/heavy weapon that died in a squad can swing the game a little bit.  It won't take over the game, but both of these should enhance the army in very subtle ways.

 

Won't comment on this one, though being able to guarantee it once a turn with Celestine was really nice.

 

 

 

5) Morale?  Could have a place on large Seraphim or Troop squads.  1 act vs 2 CP.  I mean... cannot argue that it is worse.  And worse case scenario is that you get a Faith Test, maybe a reroll, and then you can still burn 2 CP for Insane Bravery if you REALLY need to save that larger squad (lost 7 Seraphim and only have 2 Inferno Pistol and a Plasma Superior left).  I cannot argue that it is worse the Insane Bravery, as it comes from different resources and saves very valuable CP.

 

I can argue it's worse than insane bravery.

 

1. Because of our ranges, we're still better as an MSU list so morale generally isn't going to matter.

2. 2CP for a guaranteed ignore moral vs 1 FP for ignoring it on a 3+. I think I'd rather spend the 2CP because I can get more of them with list building than I can faith points + the guaranteed effect vs "maybe, maybe not."

 

 

 

6) The Passion... I've been over this before.

 

It'll be interesting, and I'm going to be playing some games with it to get a better opinion of the system before getting to critical.  But at the BEST, I see these as very subtle things that won't directly win the game itself, but each one you pass... will have a bit of an overall impact on the game.  If I may inject a little bit of an alternate view:

 

Previously, Acts of Faith were the definition of the army.  We had no stratagems (and even the ones in CA last year were pretty... okay), our army was a bland mess of units supported by some really powerful gimmicks.  Those tricks were too powerful on their own merit, and could not possibly be balanced with the addition of traits and Stratagems.  Our stratagems would have had to have been piss poor in order to not make the army a broken mess of gack that would have been resoundingly rebuked by the community.  I honestly think that a codex level army with Ynnari-like action economy (I argue better, because we don't have triggers for ours and have more control over when they happen under the current system) would have been scorned by the community and we would have had really tough times finding matches... and the army would have been bandwagoned to ugly levels.

 

Doesn't change the fact they're awful. An small, reliable effect is far greater than a big, unreliable one. To go back to my MMO mentality I mentioned earlier, I'd much rather take 10% less damage 2/3 of the time than take 2/3 less damage 10% of the time. They both math out to a 6.7% damage reduction overall, but one has a far greater up-time meaning it's more reliable and I can plan and build around it.

[taikishi]

 

 

My point about Geminae being moved to Elites is that they could be used without Celestine (nearby or at all) and basicly become a 25pt Canoness with jump pack. Perhaps no longer being named character they can take Relics, and pull off their own AoF and pull off vessel amongst your Seraphim squads. We were fielding 40pt Imagifers before, now we get 25pt Jump Pack Palatines.

 

The biggest problem with the strategy you've suggested is...what AoF? And what units, because seraphim aren't a great option. Dominions don't want to be that close to each other, Seraphim aren't very good without the ability to double move and will likely never get a chance to shoot if they rock up with a gemini behind them. Even if 3 units of inferno pistol seraphim DID get within 6" of a valuable target while also staying close enough to each other and to a miraculously still alive 2 wound battle sister, would the +1 to hit they get be worth 3CP, purchasing 3 likely overcosted units, AND spending 25pts on essentially nothing? Repentia and Crusaders are still not going to see any play and even if they did you'd just use a priest or mistress. Retributors and Battle sisters will just use a canoness for reroll 1s. There's no niche for a gemini to fit in, even as a cheap, but still wildly overpriced, jumppack canoness.

 

+1 to hit wouldn't be bad with inferno pistols. Pass the AoF with a character and vessel them out. Imagifers had 4 wounds as elites. Geminae might be going to the same, at this point nobody is sure. I'm sorry everyone is looking at this in such a negative light. I'm not saying it won't be worse when all is said and done. Just trying to see a way to work with what we're getting. I can at least find solace in knowing I wasn't one of those beating folks over the head about how we were going to get a new codex and everything was going to be super. I've played Sisters in every edition since they came out and have learned to roll with the punches from update to update. A 25 point character with a jump pack, possibly four wounds, power sword and the ability to up her SoF when she's hanging with Celestine isn't over-costed.

 

 

Per one of the other videos I watched, here are the Geminae changes:

* Separate unit from Celestine

* Elites slot

* Doesn't eat an Elites slot if you take Celestine

* 6+ Shield of Faith, no 4++

* Celestine makes their SoF 4+ if she's witihn 6" of them (per Celestine's datasheet)

* If they're within 3" of Celestine they can replace whatever wounds she took with a Mortal Wound to themselves on a 2+

* Being a separate unit means if the unit dies, Celestine can't revive them with Healing Tears -- you always have to keep one alive

* Their statistics did not change so they're still 2W

Well, if the doom is this high with you guys... I'll gladly buy your old models, lol.

 

I mean, you're all lending a lot of credibility to the larger community who thinks Sororitas players are a bunch of entitled nannies who shriek when anything doesn't go their way

 

I'm still trying to find a good review of the Relics and Stratagems, but the Acts are exactly where I thought they would be.  More in line of where they need to be.

 

Ministorum units are the clear winners here, which is hilarious to me.  Arcos are going to be NASTY, Repentia are going to be solid as well.  There's going to be a lot more strength from Shield of Faith.  Armies ranging from 4+ invuls all around to 2d6 deny the witch all over the place.  Celestians sound like they're still poo.  Celestine was cleaned up and received a much needed pass to make her not OP.  Even at 160, she still has effectively 12 wounds without the problem have actually having 12 wounds.  She's a much better force multiplier than an attack dog now.  That sucks for me, because attack dog Celestine really fits the Bloody Rose style, but is better for the army overall, as force multiplication wins games.

 

I'm pretty convinced there is a LOT of overreaction going on here.

 

Edit: Hilarious that the player from the hot-headed order known for overreaction is the one not biting in on the initial "all this sucks and needs to be burnt until the ashes are burnt, and then burnt again".

 

Edit-Edit: Penitent Engines and Exorcists are now a thing, too.  People should rightly fear Exorcists again.  10 point drop and the missile went up to d6 damage per hit... come on

 

Exorcists didn't drop in points. They've been 125 since CA2017

I'm not going to speak for everyone else, but I'm going to wait until the book is in my hands before jumping to any decisions about where Sisters lie as an army. Passions are running high and its understandable. But, despite all of this information, we still dont have the full picture yet, so I reserve judgment. It's not going to stop me from playing Sisters in any case. It just means the e-mail I send eventually will contain a lot of feedback.

 

Faith is its own reward.

 

Faith is its own reward, but that requires a reason to have it. Without getting too religious, I have faith in my Lord. I have faith in my family and loved ones.

 

I've been playing GW games since 1994; I have no faith in Games Workshop.

[CaptainMarsh]

I read something in Purifying Tempest's post that makes me so angry I am not even going to quote and respond to the post because I might get awfully :cussing snippy and :cussty, so I'm gonna ignore it. 

In fact, I'm just gonna stop posting for a while. :cuss it.

[Aqui]

And I reiterate. A lot of this information has been delivered by way of people who have read the Codex or parts of it only a few times, and its been suggested that more than a few of these people aren't Sisters players either. Lack of knowing how a Sisters army works could distort the information unintentionally. We ourselves haven't seen the book with our own eyes and already we're ready to throw the towel in before even playing a game. The reactions to what has been passed on is theoretical. There hasn't been any practical yet. I'm just saying that if players still feel the same way after trying the book out, then yes, Sisters have a problem.

 

We are not there yet.

[Purifying Tempest]

You can use the AoF to auto-pass morale (you pick a squad at the beginning of the morale phase to activate the AoF), this happens separately from the part you are forced to tally up losses and roll for morale.  Which means if your Faith point failed, you still have the opportunity to use Insane Bravery.  These two mechanics are independent from each other.

 

You're right, +3" movement sucks.  But it can help a lot of units NOT named Dominions and Seraphim be relevant (like 15 BSS with bolters moving into midfield positions to clog up objectives).  You now have the ability to reach this stuff a bit faster that an opponent, and score points.  It isn't as powerful as the busted double move, but you cannot expect to keep such powerful tools AND receive new ones.

 

The psychic phase is telegraphed by the "closest unit" clause of smite... so telegraphing what unit you're shielding from smite spam is hardly a problem.  It only stops mortal wounds during the psychic phase... doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who's going to be sucking those wounds up after the opponent's movement phase.

 

Double shooting is about as busted as double moving.  +1 BS is basically the same as many other psychic powers.  Again, clutching to a busted rule is not going to make friends in the community nor leave room for expanding other mechanics.  Not needing to devote AoFs to campy HB Rets also opens the door for other things like Multi-melta rets and HF Rets, one of which could benefit from having +1 to hit as they move with heavy weapons.  Our Rets may no longer be glued to where they deploy (that's so friggen boring).

[Matt_149]

This is the beta rules we are all talking about? The ones that we can give feedback on if they don't work? Just checking.....