BlackTriton Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Please, post your tought on the Point changes here! For one Im exited to see Blight hauler new cost! Plague marjne at 16 dosent change my mind on then a lot, but plasma at 11 sure is interesting. Edit with the changes, thks Wayniac! Some leaked screenshots have been found (I won't post the screenshots here). Note that this includes the changes from 2017 as well so some of these might not be new points values: Biologous Putrifer: 60 Blightlord Terminators: 34 Chaos Cultists: 5 Chaos Land raider: 200 Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour: 95 Chaos Spawn: 25 Daemon Prince w/Wings: 170 Deathshroud Terminators: 35 Defiler: 120 Helbrute: 60 Lord of Contagion: 95 Myphitic Blight-Hauler: 75 Noxious Blightbringe: 50 Plague Marines: 16 Plague Surgeon: 54 Plagueburst Crawler: 100 Possessed: 20 Sorcerer in Terminator Armour: 102 Tallyman: 50 WARGEAR Bile Spurt: 0 Blight Launcher: 10 Chainfist: 11 Combi-flamer: 8 Combi-melta: 15 combi-plasma: 11 entropy cannon: 15 flamer: 6 force axe: 10 force stave: 8 force sword: 8 havoc launcher: 6 heavy flamer: 14 heavy stubber: 2 helbrute fist (single/pair): 30/60 helbrute hammer: 30 helbrute plasma cannon: 16 meltagun: 14 missile launcher: 20 multi-melta: 22 plage belcher: 7 plague spewer: 15 plaguereaper: 20 plaguespurt gauntlet: 0 plasma gun: 11 plasma pistol: 5 power fist: 9 power scourge: 35 predator autocannon: 40 reaper autocannon: 40 twin heavy flamer: 28 twin lascannon: 40 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayniac Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Honestly what I can see is that Blightlords might have gone down enough to make taking them better. The Blighthauler's drop is very nice, but I'm not so sure it will make them that good since you still need 3 to do anything (so still 330ish points). The rest are minor but better than nothing. I still think it won't change seeing Cultists for days because GW seems to completely miss the reason why cultists are so good, but I can't argue with buffs. I do wonder if this will finally be enough for us to take the elite heroes, although I doubt it because their issue is less their points and more their generally lackluster abilities. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/#findComment-5209114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 I already run MBH and sometimes blightlord termies so this is all gravy to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/#findComment-5209227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMDR_Welles Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 surprised the PBC didnt go up. Glad my LoC is now 112 or 115 my Helbrute with Twin Las and ML is now only 120 (down from 147) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/#findComment-5209257 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMDR_Welles Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 still saddened that Plague Marines arent 7-21 for unit sizes... Or Pox Walkers not 14-21 either... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/#findComment-5209259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CastellanDeMolay Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 I do wonder if this will finally be enough for us to take the elite heroes, although I doubt it because their issue is less their points and more their generally lackluster abilities. I was just recalculating my planned list for 2000 points and realised I had 57 points to spare, which is exactly enough for a Tallyman, then I started looking over my other units to see who would benefit from his aura, and... oh my, the Poxwalkers I guess? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/#findComment-5209526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raktra Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 149 spare points in my 1,750 list, I’m actually a bit ecstatic. Just need to figure out what the hell to do with it now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/#findComment-5209541 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTriton Posted December 7, 2018 Author Share Posted December 7, 2018 im up by 30 point cause Plague drones are now 40pt (up from 34) ! that's actually fair. 3 Blight hauler are now 3pt more than a pair of Helverin... so lets compare them same # of wound, T, better melee, better Synergie, DR. Weaker shooting at shorter range. Degrade... about the same rate really. I will try the 3 hauler in my list now, see how I feel about it. Cultist lists will stiff be around, but Taking PoxWalkers to fill my battalion dosent feel so bad anymore. I will gladfully pay 10 point to get a better save+moral immunity, 20 was harder to swallow. BlightLords are a good distraction with an actual punch now. Love that the PBC with entropy canon is the cheap option now, may be worth a look. The change to character is real nice, they are still hard to justify in most list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/#findComment-5209590 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Closet Skeleton Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 My 1750 GT list is down to 1656 while my 2000 list is down to 1910. I guess I could throw in some of those elites choice characters now. Or just run my on Codex Release 2000 list at 1750. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/#findComment-5209941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 I am pretty bitter about Guard being cheaper and better than our chaos units. First it was malefic lords and sanctioned psykers (ours is ~100 points and theirs is less than 40 with better powers). Even after the welcome smite changes the absurd cost difference has remained. Now it’s cultists and infantry squads. Infantry squads have better statlines, can be buffed easily via orders, and have options for morale mitigation. Our cultists can situationally turn into poxwalkers if the enemy is dumb enough to shoot them and we burn a bunch of cp. The best part is the rumored ubiquity of cultists is what prompted the nerf- but the infantry squad is something that any and all imperial army can use via the loyal 32. Instead of making power armor more appealing for chaos players they just made our cultists comparatively awful so it feels bad taking them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/#findComment-5210317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTriton Posted December 8, 2018 Author Share Posted December 8, 2018 I am pretty bitter about Guard being cheaper and better than our chaos units. First it was malefic lords and sanctioned psykers (ours is ~100 points and theirs is less than 40 with better powers). Even after the welcome smite changes the absurd cost difference has remained. Now it’s cultists and infantry squads. Infantry squads have better statlines, can be buffed easily via orders, and have options for morale mitigation. Our cultists can situationally turn into poxwalkers if the enemy is dumb enough to shoot them and we burn a bunch of cp. The best part is the rumored ubiquity of cultists is what prompted the nerf- but the infantry squad is something that any and all imperial army can use via the loyal 32. Instead of making power armor more appealing for chaos players they just made our cultists comparatively awful so it feels bad taking them. Make no mistake, Cultist spam was (and probably still is) a top tier army build First, they can be taken in large squad, wich makes any buff to the unit super efficient. they can then be made immune to moral by the cold and bitter warlord trait, making multiple large unit super hard to remove. they have access to the best stratagem in the game Veteran of the long war that makes autogun suddenly a lot more dangerous. You can cast prescience on them, making them very accurate. On top of which they can endless cacophony to shoot twice, making previous buff even more efficient. By comparison, Infantry squad only role is to take up space and give CP. Orders can make them do cool thing for free, but Infantry cannot be made into a heavy lifter unit. Internally Cultist where the only reasonable tax unit, now we might see some competition with other unit such as poxwalkers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/#findComment-5210399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 Boo. I don’t buy any of it. There are plenty of ways to buff guardsmen, there are stratagems for them too, and all cultists going up in cost because of an Iron Warrior warlord trait or because of optional stratagems is bad game design. Cultists went up in cost because they were so effective relative to the power armored options in the dex but GW has no idea about how to fix 3+ CSM. so they just nerfed those pesky cultists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/#findComment-5210500 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTriton Posted December 8, 2018 Author Share Posted December 8, 2018 There's no point in debating the merit of infantry squads here. Cultist went up because they were overperforming other options by alot, and thats fair. GW has shown no interest in making regular power amor (csm / tac) apealing, instead focussing on primaris and cult variation. We now know new version of already released codex are incoming amd that we should not expect change to datasheet in the meanwhile. Still theres hope there. Honestly, most of the feels bad I see is due to people not knowing what to expect and blowing their expectation sky high. The game in 8ed is in a good place, and now it should be even better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/#findComment-5210551 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 There's no point in debating the merit of infantry squads here. Cultist went up because they were overperforming other options by alot, and thats fair. GW has shown no interest in making regular power amor (csm / tac) apealing, instead focussing on primaris and cult variation. We now know new version of already released codex are incoming amd that we should not expect change to datasheet in the meanwhile. Still theres hope there. Honestly, most of the feels bad I see is due to people not knowing what to expect and blowing their expectation sky high. The game in 8ed is in a good place, and now it should be even better. Where was it confirmed that we'd see new versions of existing Codexes? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/#findComment-5210649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTriton Posted December 9, 2018 Author Share Posted December 9, 2018 GW did not announce it officially so I wont link anything. but if you follow closely 40K and ITC you will hear game tester talk about it. They are coming is pretty much guaranty, the time frame is anywhere from 3 month to next year. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/#findComment-5210717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokugawa Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 I am pretty bitter about Guard being cheaper and better than our chaos units. First it was malefic lords and sanctioned psykers (ours is ~100 points and theirs is less than 40 with better powers). Even after the welcome smite changes the absurd cost difference has remained. Now it’s cultists and infantry squads. Infantry squads have better statlines, can be buffed easily via orders, and have options for morale mitigation. Our cultists can situationally turn into poxwalkers if the enemy is dumb enough to shoot them and we burn a bunch of cp. The best part is the rumored ubiquity of cultists is what prompted the nerf- but the infantry squad is something that any and all imperial army can use via the loyal 32. Instead of making power armor more appealing for chaos players they just made our cultists comparatively awful so it feels bad taking them. Make no mistake, Cultist spam was (and probably still is) a top tier army build First, they can be taken in large squad, wich makes any buff to the unit super efficient. they can then be made immune to moral by the cold and bitter warlord trait, making multiple large unit super hard to remove. they have access to the best stratagem in the game Veteran of the long war that makes autogun suddenly a lot more dangerous. You can cast prescience on them, making them very accurate. On top of which they can endless cacophony to shoot twice, making previous buff even more efficient. By comparison, Infantry squad only role is to take up space and give CP. Orders can make them do cool thing for free, but Infantry cannot be made into a heavy lifter unit. Internally Cultist where the only reasonable tax unit, now we might see some competition with other unit such as poxwalkers. "but Infantry cannot be made into a heavy lifter unit." Does IG need more heavy lifter units? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/#findComment-5210791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTriton Posted December 10, 2018 Author Share Posted December 10, 2018 The merit of infantry squad/ IG should not be discussed here. After digesting the changes im looking to the blightBringer for the first time. 55 point for what he does seems really fair. He could replace a rhino in my list. Im also looking to replace my PlagueDrone. Their role was to be scary and though, essencially taking fire away from the real damaging unit. I was thinking 3 blight hauler maybe? 350pt is more than the drones, for about the same wounds, but they do have some synergie. The idea is to cast -1 to hit on them (making them -2 in melee) and front running my bloat drones / DP / Plague marine. While they dont get access to warp surge for the 4++ my plague drones had, they can benefit from prepared position, making that strat a much more appealing proposition. Plus their fire support complement my Armiger nicely. I ordered more of these little thing to try it out. Here us hopping they finally find a use. I holded on buying PBC's in fear that they would become unplayable. Now Im gonna need to buy a few. 2 of them would probably over perform the Blight hauler for less point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/#findComment-5211924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Yea the Blighthauler vs PBC changes are a bit of a head scratcher for sure. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/#findComment-5211948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeresyBeliever Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 I had just dropped my Haulers for 2 x helverins but the point changes does help them. at 75 points less for the 3 its a big chunk. I have been looking to get more shooting into my DG list. Contemptors have gone down as has the butcher cannon The Butcher Cannon array has gone down now my the twin butcher leviathan is only 289 points now. I have been pretty competitive with my 1750 list so these points have helped a little. But it hasn't made choice to add shooting any easier Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/#findComment-5211981 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 I still don't think MBHs are my cup of tea or a great pick outside of friendly/non-comp games, the weapon options (or lack of) are what put me off more than anything. I think they'd be a solid pick if they had a heavy blight launcher or some kind of plague weapon like that. I dislike low ROF random (esp. d6) damage weapons, too swingy & stopped by invuls. Although the price reduction is welcome and kudos to those taking them. PBC is still superb and that hasn't changed though I don't think cheaper entropy cannons makes much difference as it was always the poor BS of the PBC when moving that made them pretty unusable and again, a non plague-weapon 'less good lascannon' is too swingy IMO (though that's just my taste); 3xPBC with plaguespitters and a arch-contaminator plate winged-DP is solid & the go to for me, not sure I see that changing in competitive games. Maybe for fluffy/friendly games it could be used? A big winner for me is the Hellforged Contemptor. 10 wounds with a 3+/5++(4++ melee) and WS/BS2+ with cheaper butcher cannons and a dirt cheap havoc launcher is decent for 144 pts. Butcher cannons are amazing guns, high ROF & S8 D2 is great, AP-1 isnt a problem since most big stuff has invul saves so it's about putting out bucket loads of shots (part of what makes the Helverin so good). I think two of them is prob better than one Leviathan as both cost around the same, both have similar damage output, and the W20 T7 3+ of the two Contemptors is arguably better than the W14 T8 2+ of the Leviathan. I've run the butcher cannon array Leviathan lots with my DG and it's superb, but I will be benching it in favour of two Contemptors with dual butcher cannons & havoc launchers, I guess I can bring all three if I want to bring the cheese vs competitive lists. All in all I don't see this CA changing much exept making a few units slightly more usable. Most of the problems with 8th are not caused by overcosted units but by other abuses. I'm enjoying 8th btw, not moaning just airing my 2 cents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/#findComment-5212288 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokugawa Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Contemptors are already very effective since points tweak in CA2017. Especially for DG/AL ones. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/#findComment-5212310 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 I really like my dual Soulburner Decimator but they don’t seem to get much love anymore. Since DG have so many options I’m thinking of moving my Decimator to Black Legion or Thousand Sons. I can only imagine the expense of getting a Contemptor here with that loadout... so don’t tempt me. Lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/#findComment-5212377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayniac Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 I am extremely tempted to get 2 Contemptors now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/#findComment-5212400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyslugger Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 I have a contemptor, leviathan and deredeo with butcher cannons (Levi is magnetised) and last time I ran the leviathan and contemptor together it was brutal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/#findComment-5212489 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryptix Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 I really like my dual Soulburner Decimator but they don’t seem to get much love anymore. Since DG have so many options I’m thinking of moving my Decimator to Black Legion or Thousand Sons. I can only imagine the expense of getting a Contemptor here with that loadout... so don’t tempt me. Lol Get the BAC contemptor if you can and get one of the Butcher cannon proxies on shapeways/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352164-ca-changes-and-impact-for-dg/#findComment-5212502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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