Discussion post points CA leak

[Iron_Within]

Chosen now cost 1 point more than regular CSM. 

[Iron_Within]

 

For comparison: 

 

Scarab Occult Terminators are now 30 points (down from 33)

Chaos Terminators naked are now 28.  

Raptors are identical to their loyalist counterparts at 15 (down from 17) 

 

 

All better than before certainly, but not great. 

 

SfPanzer I believed they were more expensive for the same exact reason. We have an opportunity cost built in due to custom load outs for each member combined with damage based strategems and powers that function very well. 

 

Space Wolf termies are the same cost as SM and also can take combi weapons (and 2pt stormshields!). We never paid extra for our terminators before

 

My overall impression is that instead of spamming cultists, we're now gonna want to use MSU cultists for battalions, and then spam helbrutes and daemon engines. There may be a role for chosen special weapon squads.

 

And Khârn is insane at 120pts!

 

 

I am truly hoping the terminators thing is a cock up on GW's part and will get corrected once proper print comes out (or there is something to justify the 5 point more). There will certainly be a rather angry email sent to GW if it is not.

The only other justification I have heard for the 5 points more is we have access to Strategems etc. which I frankly feel just does not hold true as SM's have better access to buffing units like Lts, Captains and Ancients. It's apples and oranges - they're still fruit dammit!

[SmiteThemAll]

Chosen and special weapons dropping in points make me happy. Now if only taking Abaddon as your warlord would make them troops, I'd be ecstatic.

 

Other notable drops for me are auto cannons now being the same price as heavy bolters. Bikes dropping a couple of points. Terminators and their weapon choices dropping a decent chunk. Still sad that loyalists termies are 5 points cheaper.

 

It also seems that the soulburner petard I use on my Decimator engine has reverted back to its old price. Its listed as "soulburner" tho in the leaked images which seems strange.

 

Still pretty baffled that CSM remain the same price, seemed like an opportune time to make them relevant and help prevent "cultist spam".

 

Maybe there are some new detachments or formations in CA that benefit CSM and regular SM. I won't hold my breath tho.

[Maschinenpriester]

I think that the price drop of combi weapons and termies gets eaten up by the increase of power weapons (Except fists which are a mandatory choice for loyalists and therefore dont allow us to equip cheaper termies...). I was hoping to get more use for my termies but it seems technically they will remain the Same. (termie-3 combiplasma-4 poweraxe+5 -> -2 loyalists: termies-8 fist-3 -> -11)

[Iron_Within]

I think that the price drop of combi weapons and termies gets eaten up by the increase of power weapons (Except fists which are a mandatory choice for loyalists and therefore dont allow us to equip cheaper termies...). I was hoping to get more use for my termies but it seems technically they will remain the Same. (termie-3 combiplasma-4 poweraxe+5 -> -2 loyalists: termies-8 fist-3 -> -11)

 

Power weapons have not gone up in price. There is no reason for the +5 vs Loyalists as Space Wolves with as many options as Chaos Space Marine units are also 23 points. 

I suspect this leak has some missing/incorrect values as Drukhari having no adjustments is crazy

[McGibs]

What do people think of the return of cheap stormbolter/chainsword Chosen? 16 points for 4x boltershots and 3x attacks (plus DFTFA) seems very solid for anti-infantry wetwork. Throw in a couple powerweapons for flavour and put two squads of five in a rhino, dreadclaw, or drill (or even a landraider!) for close range dakka and charging.

If GW is dead set on not doing anything to fix regular CSM, this at least seems like a valid way to get power armoured non-cult marines on the table.

They might even replace my Noisemarines for general purpose chaff-chewing.

[Mekhitar]

Can we give chosen storm bolters and chain axes? That is a route I would definitely consider exploring for, say, NL. Make them Nurgle and pop the strat for -2 to hit.

[ChazSexington]

I'm irked, but not surprised Guardsmen are cheaper than Cultists now. It's GW's answer to the Ottomans' Zilya: a tax on non-Muslims. Worship of other things than the False Emperor is allowed, but results in an extra point tax. 

 

I find it bizarre that IG Vets are the same cost as Cultists. GW didn't seem to realise that the reason people took Cultists in large squads was VotLW as the lynchpin of the combo, and 10-15 man squads as the CP tax. I mean, Warp Talons are a point cheaper (before LCs) than CSMs, and as mentioned, Chosen are a single point dearer. GW's "community" post shows they don't get why we took Cultists - because our other Troops choice is a dumpster fire. Cultists are a good choice, both for CPs and killing stuff, point for point. While I don't mind the increase in all honesty - it seems better - the real issue here is VotLW on Cultists. Space Marines take Scouts because SMs are overcosted, CSMs take Cultists.

 

 

It's also annoying the Predator isn't going down in cost, but I'm holding out hope that they'll make it possible to take them in squadrons, as Killshot etc. are useless when you can only take three. 

[Wayniac]

Yeah honestly I think they dropped the ball and really don't understand.

[Azekai]

I don’t think a lot of the player base understands either. ‘It’s justified, CSM strats are really good!’

 

No, having cheap ablative wounds and weight of numbers is god in 8th. They score better, cost less, deal comparable damage and screen for the really Killy stuff. That is why guardsmen, cultists and the (comparably economical) scout are all better than their power armored alternatives. It isn’t like chaos players love cultists more than CSM, it is because CSM have no purpose, they aren’t dangerous or tough enough to use and are expensive enough to be a liability.

[Azekai]

It isn’t like the game is fundamentally broken or anything, it just feels bad to use CSM on the tabletop, and GW’s boneheaded answer was to nerf the relatively efficient alternative troops choice.

 

And all that just stings a bit more when Guard can receive orders on top of a superior statline for less.

 

Edit: this was all supposed to be one post, but I am on a phone and my mutated phalanges are too fat.

[Prot]

Guys I agree 100% on the Cultist thing but we can’t dwell on it. I personally tire of any time GW punishes something that functions rather than fixes what should be working but clearly isn’t.... the gorilla in the room is CSM.

 

On the other hand the loyalist marines are in a similar situation, so I have to wonder how long we have to wait for the CSM ‘Primaris ‘ because in my mind this clearly points to ‘primaris’ CSM as well as ‘Primaris’ Abaddon.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Guys I agree 100% on the Cultist thing but we can’t dwell on it. I personally tire of any time GW punishes something that functions rather than fixes what should be working but clearly isn’t.... the gorilla in the room is CSM.

 

On the other hand the loyalist marines are in a similar situation, so I have to wonder how long we have to wait for the CSM ‘Primaris ‘ because in my mind this clearly points to ‘primaris’ CSM as well as ‘Primaris’ Abaddon.

 

Isn't Index Astartes coming back soon or something? Perhaps that's a place they could use to fix up some of these marine statlines and chapter traits?

[Azekai]

Guys I agree 100% on the Cultist thing but we can’t dwell on it.

 

Then you follow up with:

 

 

I have to wonder how long we have to wait for the CSM ‘Primaris ‘ because in my mind this clearly points to ‘primaris’ CSM as well as ‘Primaris’ Abaddon.

 

C'mon Prot, you can't tell me not to stew in my own bitterness and then give me another thing to be bitter about!

:P

 

In all seriousness, you might be right. I only own about 10 cultists; what makes my teeth itch is GW's approach. Either the powers that be really don't understand the game they have crafted, or as you suggest, we are about to see a bunch of fancypants new releases forced upon us. Neither proposition is particularly enticing... new models are fun and all, but the idea that they are made to occupy the tactical niche left by (apparently intentionally useless) CSM is unappealing.  

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Personally, i don't mind if regular marines get phased out for Primaris or something. I just want to be able to field a core of marines as my actual army. but what I really would hate is if they phase out Cult Marines too. But i doubt they will considering that Rubrics and Plague Marines have recent kits, and Berzerkers and Noise Marines are rumored to be getting them when they get their codices.

 

If they were just dumping vanilla marines for primaris, I'd be okay with it. But since they aren't helping cult marines either, I fear that they are just incompetent at balancing this stuff.

[Wayniac]

 

Guys I agree 100% on the Cultist thing but we can’t dwell on it. I personally tire of any time GW punishes something that functions rather than fixes what should be working but clearly isn’t.... the gorilla in the room is CSM.

 

On the other hand the loyalist marines are in a similar situation, so I have to wonder how long we have to wait for the CSM ‘Primaris ‘ because in my mind this clearly points to ‘primaris’ CSM as well as ‘Primaris’ Abaddon.

 

Isn't Index Astartes coming back soon or something? Perhaps that's a place they could use to fix up some of these marine statlines and chapter traits?

 

 

Now that's a thought.  It is coming back, and IA was where we got the original legion/chapter rules back in 3rd edition.

 

It could be that it's going to fix up the marine codexes without having to reprint them.

 

Thing is, we don't know if it will be an article series in White Dwarf, or a book.  It could be something lame like giving the spotlight on various Primaris chapters.

[Lagrath]

So disappointed with the cultist and plague drone changes. Especially since yesterday my army was completed in commission painting. But more disappointed that greater Daemons did not drop more and that GW missed the chance to fix / lower costs on FW daemon Lords. Sigh. Otherwise good update. Castellans and Dark Eldar still need nerfs but their time will come.

[Excessus]

Well, in due time GW will see that CSM players still take cultists as troops despite the price hike and perhaps do something about the situation...

 

 

It feels like marines of all sorts and codexes are missing some sort of special rule to make them more like the depiction of them in the lore. In KT they have the rule that lets them ignore a flesh wound and that comes into action often (at least for me) and differentiates them from lesser creatures.

 

*ahem*

 

In any case, points drops on many of our options is a welcome change. I for one am looking forward to including a chosen squad in my lists in the future, with the icon of vengeance going down they have Ld10 and has to loose half of the squad to risk loosing extra people. Don't know how to kit them up yet though...

[Stofficus]

For me, C:CSM is how I keep my 30k legion playable in 40k while FW keeps its head firmly, uh, well...

 

Anywho, there's a lot of good in the CA changes - I've been wanting to use some fun customized chosen models without feeling like I'm kicking myself in the teeth, and some shooty raptors look even more appealing, but the termies, man, that hurts

 

I've got ~35 odd Tartaros & Cataphractii termies (the lack of those rules is another matter entirely), and just arbitrarily having to pay more is nonsense and hope it isn't true. When SW have the same utility and Deathwatch have significantly more, the CSM cost is outrageous. 

[Iron_Within]

I'm irked, but not surprised Guardsmen are cheaper than Cultists now. It's GW's answer to the Ottomans' Zilya: a tax on non-Muslims. Worship of other things than the False Emperor is allowed, but results in an extra point tax. 

 

I find it bizarre that IG Vets are the same cost as Cultists. GW didn't seem to realise that the reason people took Cultists in large squads was VotLW as the lynchpin of the combo, and 10-15 man squads as the CP tax. I mean, Warp Talons are a point cheaper (before LCs) than CSMs, and as mentioned, Chosen are a single point dearer. GW's "community" post shows they don't get why we took Cultists - because our other Troops choice is a dumpster fire. Cultists are a good choice, both for CPs and killing stuff, point for point. While I don't mind the increase in all honesty - it seems better - the real issue here is VotLW on Cultists. Space Marines take Scouts because SMs are overcosted, CSMs take Cultists.

 

 

It's also annoying the Predator isn't going down in cost, but I'm holding out hope that they'll make it possible to take them in squadrons, as Killshot etc. are useless when you can only take three. 

 

ARE THEY      KIDDING?!?!! Where the heck did they say this utter trash?!

 

[Lord Rust]

This is what comes to mind every time GW talks about balance...

http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_pictures/grail/large/HolyGrail028.jpg

[Khornestar]

There are plenty of nice drops in points, but I don’t think any of these changes accomplish anything terribly meaningful. I’m mildly pleased, mildly frustrated. I think having some sort of video chat that explains the rationale behind how and why the rules team make the decisions that they do could go a long way toward bridging th gap between what players want and expect and how realistic/appropriate those expectations are given how GW sees and designs their game.

 

It’s been said before by others, but I think expecting balance in 40k only sets us up for disappointment. It isn’t even the perfect balance vs. no balance at all dichotomy. That isn’t their priority. Making a profitable product is their priority. Could they do better? Maybe, but is it worth their while? So long as they come out with incredible models and new codices, I think they’re achieving what they want to achieve. If balanced rules were what drove their success, they would have gone under long ago.

 

I care to a point, but honestly I just want to paint my little army men and roll some dice when I get the chance. My job is super stressful and I need a hobby like this to help cope. I imagine many others are in a similar situation. My unsolicited advice is to relax a bit with the outrage over this stuff and just enjoy the game for what it is. I know not everyone thinks and feels this way, but I thought I’d offer my thoughts up for consideration.

 

P.S. I reserve the right to still be a whiner from time to time. :P

[Sonoftherubric21]

Are warp talons ever worth taking now? Sitting at 24 after duel claws I believe?  

I just see them and balk at ONE attack. 1 measly attack for a unit that is supposed to be the CSM foil to vanguard veterans.....and is no where near as good due to stat limitations. 

[Tokugawa]

For they rage against 5pts IG vets:

 

IG codex has different wargear costs for vets and standard guardsmen. e.g. plasma gun is 11/7(13/7 before CA2018)pts. Vets are still more expensive and not troops.

[ChazSexington]

 

I'm irked, but not surprised Guardsmen are cheaper than Cultists now. It's GW's answer to the Ottomans' Zilya: a tax on non-Muslims. Worship of other things than the False Emperor is allowed, but results in an extra point tax. 

 

I find it bizarre that IG Vets are the same cost as Cultists. GW didn't seem to realise that the reason people took Cultists in large squads was VotLW as the lynchpin of the combo, and 10-15 man squads as the CP tax. I mean, Warp Talons are a point cheaper (before LCs) than CSMs, and as mentioned, Chosen are a single point dearer. GW's "community" post shows they don't get why we took Cultists - because our other Troops choice is a dumpster fire. Cultists are a good choice, both for CPs and killing stuff, point for point. While I don't mind the increase in all honesty - it seems better - the real issue here is VotLW on Cultists. Space Marines take Scouts because SMs are overcosted, CSMs take Cultists.

 

 

It's also annoying the Predator isn't going down in cost, but I'm holding out hope that they'll make it possible to take them in squadrons, as Killshot etc. are useless when you can only take three. 

 

ARE THEY      KIDDING?!?!! Where the heck did they say this utter trash?!

 

 

 

It's on the Warhammer Community page in the Chapter Approved for Matched Play article. I put Community in apostrophes since it's a news/commerical outlet tbh. 

 

 

For they rage against 5pts IG vets: IG codex has different wargear costs for vets and standard guardsmen. e.g. plasma gun is 11/7(13/7 before CA2018)pts. Vets are still more expensive and not troops.

 

...I don't think Vets having wargear options that Cultists don't have counts against the Cultists.  

 

10 Vets with lasguns are the same price as 10 Cultists, but better saves, LD, and BS, but can't be taken in massive squads for better Stratagem usage nor generate CPs in the same way. I get what you're saying though and you have a point! I think if they all were the same point cost, it'd be easier to swallow.

 

 

Are warp talons ever worth taking now? Sitting at 24 after duel claws I believe?  

 

I just see them and balk at ONE attack. 1 measly attack for a unit that is supposed to be the CSM foil to vanguard veterans.....and is no where near as good due to stat limitations. 

 

Aye, but their problem is their Warpflame strike. Zero charge mitigation is an absolute killer; Orks have an 80%+ chance of making a Charge from Deep Strike, Warp Talons have, sans re-rolls, 27.7%.

 

Raptors are down 2pt, so with cheaper plasma weapons etc, they might have a bigger role.