Discussion post points CA leak

[ChazSexington]

I agree on that front certainly, high level competitive I think we are screwed, but I think we were never up there outside of the soup lists (which I largely don't care about). I mean what shocks me most of all was the Drukhari staying the same (though something something working times etc.)

 

I've been using https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/ to work out the viability of a 10 man Chosen squad with flamers (combi flamer on the Champion). Part of me thinks that combi Flamers would be better be hey ho I've not done the maths on that.

I worked out a 178 point squad of Chosen and pitted it against the same points of Cultists (175, yeah 3 points difference). The assumption in each case is they've got all the same buffs as the other, gone through each time. Each case ignores them dying on the way in - in reality each would have a method of delivery (more cultists, or a Rhino in each case).

 

First Vs Ork Boys

Scenario assumes Prescience has been cast, a Lord within 6", Veterans of the Long war has been used and the Units are shooting and charging, being fully in range to use all of their attacks.

 

Chosen - 83 attacks overall (after averages) 74.972 successful hits overall, 45.819 Wounds, 38.183 Dead Orks (Return of Investment - 150.158%)

Cultists -  175 attacks overall, 95.175 successful hits, 38.887 Wounds, 32.407 Dead Orks, ROI - 129.628%

 

vs Ork Boys part 2, no upgrades.

Scenario as said, no upgrades, no strategems, just unit vs unit.

Chosen - 52 total attacks, 41.667 hits, 20.833 wounds, 17.361 Dead Orks, ROI 68.274%

Cultists - 105 Total attacks, 52.5 hits, 17.5 wounds, 14.583 Dead Orks, ROI 58.332%

 

Vs MEQ

Scenario pits against MEQ with no upgrades

Chosen -  52 total attacks, 41.667 hits, 20.833 wounds, 6.944 Dead Marines ROI 27.308%

Cultists - 105 Total attacks, 52.5 hits, 17.5 wounds, 5.833 Dead Marines ROI 23.332%

 

EDIT: Interesting, in both scenarios it's more points efficient to use Combi Flamers....

 

The unfortunate thing is of course is old Cultists (and therefore Guardsman now) out perform both these units marginally in all cases.... Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggggggghhhhhhhh.... But it's really marginal vs New Chosen.

I mean if they were nuking all hordes I'd be fine with it, but why *JUST* Chaos.

 

Generally, Chosen tend to outperform Cultists against units with higher toughness and better saves. Plasma, due to melta's awful range, is where it's at, I think. 

[Iron_Within]

With plasma I'm not so sure any more, it's an all rounder but it's all round mediocre when compared to other units, for the 208 points for a 10 man Chosen unit with 5 plasma guns and champ with Combi plasma you can get the Obliterators for less who outperform in survivability, shooting verses MEQ and vehicles and are almost equal against Hordes (neither are great). I mean you could go 6 man for 152 which makes them cheaper and so more efficient but you still have delivery. That's why I think Flamers atm are better - they're smaller, can slot into a rhino.

 

I did a comparison against another mainstay close range unit - Khorne Berzerkers, Flamer Chosen outperform the Berzerkers against GEQ, Orks, and Vehicles, Berzerkers are better against MEQ - The one problem I had was I was unable to account for DttFE, however against Guard the Chosen kill 11 more Guardsmen (31.757 vs 42.364 dead Guard) that I don't think they'd catch up. 

 

EDIT Sorry I should've clarified - I compared Berzerkers to Slaaneshi Chosen. Both have Prescience on them with a Lord nearby. Both use Veterans of the Long War - Chosen in the Shooting phase and Berzerkers in the Figt Phase, Chosen use endless Cacophony in the Shooting phase. So it's more accurate to say that Chosen are better at killing stuff but greater CP sink which may limit options. However what they are good for and I stand by that is that they will clear screens far better and so I think have greater utility alongside other units whereas a berzerker style unit will just chew through things

 

One option could be to have 5 Flamer Chosen with 5 Berzerkers in a Rhino together with Jump Pack Lord/Winged Daemon Prince to take up the rear. They'd make a horrible mess - Flamers to clear chaff for the Berzerker charge with Chosen in support - the Berzerkers tagging vehicles. 

[ChazSexington]

With plasma I'm not so sure any more, it's an all rounder but it's all round mediocre when compared to other units, for the 208 points for a 10 man Chosen unit with 5 plasma guns and champ with Combi plasma you can get the Obliterators for less who outperform in survivability, shooting verses MEQ and vehicles and are almost equal against Hordes (neither are great). I mean you could go 6 man for 152 which makes them cheaper and so more efficient but you still have delivery. That's why I think Flamers atm are better - they're smaller, can slot into a rhino.

 

I did a comparison against another mainstay close range unit - Khorne Berzerkers, Flamer Chosen outperform the Berzerkers against GEQ, Orks, and Vehicles, Berzerkers are better against MEQ - The one problem I had was I was unable to account for DttFE, however against Guard the Chosen kill 11 more Guardsmen (31.757 vs 42.364 dead Guard) that I don't think they'd catch up. 

 

EDIT Sorry I should've clarified - I compared Berzerkers to Slaaneshi Chosen. Both have Prescience on them with a Lord nearby. Both use Veterans of the Long War - Chosen in the Shooting phase and Berzerkers in the Figt Phase, Chosen use endless Cacophony in the Shooting phase. So it's more accurate to say that Chosen are better at killing stuff but greater CP sink which may limit options. However what they are good for and I stand by that is that they will clear screens far better and so I think have greater utility alongside other units whereas a berzerker style unit will just chew through things

 

One option could be to have 5 Flamer Chosen with 5 Berzerkers in a Rhino together with Jump Pack Lord/Winged Daemon Prince to take up the rear. They'd make a horrible mess - Flamers to clear chaff for the Berzerker charge with Chosen in support - the Berzerkers tagging vehicles. 

 

Ah, now I follow. I don't disagree, but I think Chosen with plasma guns have more utility in general. I mean, enough Khorne Berzerkers, if you can get them into CC, will destroy absolutely anything. Chosen have the option of not going into CC - with both plasma and power swords, they can choose. Autogun Cultists and Oblits outshoot Chosen, but mostly don't really have the CC option. It's like CSMs, but better - CSMs are just horrible at anything point for point.

 

For competitive play, I think Khorne Berzerkers, Oblits, and Cultists outshine Chosen. However, if GW raised the points on Berzerkers and Oblits by just a smidgen, we might be looking at Chosen as a relative option. 

 

I think Chosen really need Veteran Tactics again (or something similar) to differentiate themselves. 

[Sonoftherubric21]

So trying to update my lists.... Increasingly annoyed as the cultist points increase is such a huge nerf and the points drops don't help with core troops. We've just been screwed over again in my mind.

 

May I ask why this is the outlook you have?  I am a tad confused on this. I don't "spam" cultists by any stretch, but I usually have roughly 40 in a 2000 point list for my Black Legion. 

 

The rest of those lists is a mixture of tanks, dreads, engines, and chaos marines of various types (troops, plagues, chosen, noise marines, havocs) loaded for bear with special weapons. As you can imagine from CA, my list shot down in cost dramatically even WITH the cultist increase.  To the tune of about 150 points. My 2k list all of a sudden hovered just over 1850. I can only see this as a net gain for obvious reasons. 

[Khornestar]

I agree. A list would have to contain a LOT of cultists for a list to have a net increase. This certainly isn’t impossible by any stretch, but I think most lists will allow for more upgrades, if not more units outright.

[Panzer]

 

So trying to update my lists.... Increasingly annoyed as the cultist points increase is such a huge nerf and the points drops don't help with core troops. We've just been screwed over again in my mind.

 

May I ask why this is the outlook you have?  I am a tad confused on this. I don't "spam" cultists by any stretch, but I usually have roughly 40 in a 2000 point list for my Black Legion. 

 

The rest of those lists is a mixture of tanks, dreads, engines, and chaos marines of various types (troops, plagues, chosen, noise marines, havocs) loaded for bear with special weapons. As you can imagine from CA, my list shot down in cost dramatically even WITH the cultist increase.  To the tune of about 150 points. My 2k list all of a sudden hovered just over 1850. I can only see this as a net gain for obvious reasons. 

 

 

He's probably looking at it in a Troop vacuum. Cultists became more expensive but Chaos Marines didn't become cheaper so overall the Troop section for Chaos Marines got weakened.

[Stofficus]

 

 

So trying to update my lists.... Increasingly annoyed as the cultist points increase is such a huge nerf and the points drops don't help with core troops. We've just been screwed over again in my mind.

 

May I ask why this is the outlook you have?  I am a tad confused on this. I don't "spam" cultists by any stretch, but I usually have roughly 40 in a 2000 point list for my Black Legion. 

 

The rest of those lists is a mixture of tanks, dreads, engines, and chaos marines of various types (troops, plagues, chosen, noise marines, havocs) loaded for bear with special weapons. As you can imagine from CA, my list shot down in cost dramatically even WITH the cultist increase.  To the tune of about 150 points. My 2k list all of a sudden hovered just over 1850. I can only see this as a net gain for obvious reasons. 

 

 

He's probably looking at it in a Troop vacuum. Cultists became more expensive but Chaos Marines didn't become cheaper so overall the Troop section for Chaos Marines got weakened.

 

Honestly, with how pathetic the troop choices are, I would say it would make more sense to have one's battalions drawn from the cult legions - noise marines, 'zerkers and plague marines are all viable, functional power-armoured troops, and then rock some vanguard/spearhead/whatever of the main theme of your list is. 

 

They're more expensive, for sure, but their performance so massively eclipses CSM, and compare favourably with chaff units (and in the case of Noise Marines in particular, are superb at clearing chaff). 

 

That being said, I've always been rocking the IIIrd, so I've been looking at CA going "Well, nothing here changes my 30 noise marine battalion," and I am very thankful for that. Every day my "oldmarines" get to fight on is a small blessing (and boy do primaris hate blastmasters). 

[Iron_Within]

As my name may suggest, I'm a die hard iron warriors player. I have several lists, but plenty circled around a cultist horde to move forward and protect the marines (think storm of iron). So I'd be running anything from 40-90 cultists depending on the list.

 

My main aggravation by far is I play chaos space marines to play marines and they are by far the worst option, and it's completely ignorant that they've not addressed it. I'd have been ok if they'd reduced CSM or provided a buff to power armour, but it's a straight nerf to all lists as cultists are still much better as a troops choice, so your list Costs 30 points more minimum. And that I've not stopped being angry about.

 

The other problem I've had is my gaming group always pushes towards competitive and I'm quickly getting to the point I'm flat out refusing to play plenty because they won't move away from competitive lists. I find particularly annoying the "oh these are cadian and these are catachan" crud that I see a lot of (my group has disproportionate Imperial guard players). I mean that's a background to my annoyance, I made a competitive list to try and change people's minds but it's a ruddy slog at times.

 

The thing I'm positive about is city fight, I'm liking the look of it. The missions in the main game might help, but no-one of them help not getting blasted off the board

[Khornestar]

Yeah, the lack of changes to standard marines is very fishy at best, horrible oversight at worst.

 

Frontline Gaming suggests that they didn't drop points because the background of marines is that they aren't a horde army, and that Chapter Approved isn't for changing rules (for the most part), only points.

 

Okay... not sure where that leaves us, other than with thumbs up bums, as I imagine British folk are fond of saying.

[Wayniac]

FLG is essentially a GW propaganda machine at this point so I'd take anything they say with a grain of salt.  Given that CA did change some datasheets, the whole "it's not for changing rules" thing is bogus at this point anyways.  

[Iron_Within]

Not for changing rules.... Save all the rules that were changed....

[Panzer]

Yeah, the lack of changes to standard marines is very fishy at best, horrible oversight at worst.

 

Frontline Gaming suggests that they didn't drop points because the background of marines is that they aren't a horde army, and that Chapter Approved isn't for changing rules (for the most part), only points.

 

Okay... not sure where that leaves us, other than with thumbs up bums, as I imagine British folk are fond of saying.

 

They are probably just trying to make excuses on GWs behalf. As others have said they are pretty much pro GW always try to find something good even with GWs worst decisions.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Not for changing rules.... Save all the rules that were changed....

 

Insist that if they play a "comp" list that your friends play the Chapter Approved missions with you.  The design for them takes a note out of the Infinity/Corvus Belli playbook. (this is a good thing)

 

for the new missions in chapter approved they are designed to focus exclusively on the objective play. For perspective: In all of these missions "kill points" are not applicable, first blood is not used as a metric for scoring the way it was originally written, and a player can WIN the game EVEN IF they are "tabled" due to objective points. If you score more on objectives then your enemy, and then they table you? you still win. 

 

One of them (as example) is a "terminal" mission, an HQ unit must get in base contact with a terminal to "hack it" but only HQ models can do it. this forces HQ models into the center of the board (or closer to it) and will force your opponents to alter their playstyles. static gunlines cannot win these missions.  

 

Food for thought.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

That terminal mission sounds really fun. One of my biggest problems lately is I play to the mission while opponents sit in their buff castles for 80% of the game and shoot me off the board and then score most of their points the last turn. It's very frustrating and it seems very brainless and uninvolved.

[Wayniac]

 

Not for changing rules.... Save all the rules that were changed....

 

Insist that if they play a "comp" list that your friends play the Chapter Approved missions with you.  The design for them takes a note out of the Infinity/Corvus Belli playbook. (this is a good thing)

 

for the new missions in chapter approved they are designed to focus exclusively on the objective play. For perspective: In all of these missions "kill points" are not applicable, first blood is not used as a metric for scoring the way it was originally written, and a player can WIN the game EVEN IF they are "tabled" due to objective points. If you score more on objectives then your enemy, and then they table you? you still win. 

 

One of them (as example) is a "terminal" mission, an HQ unit must get in base contact with a terminal to "hack it" but only HQ models can do it. this forces HQ models into the center of the board (or closer to it) and will force your opponents to alter their playstyles. static gunlines cannot win these missions.  

 

Food for thought.

 

 

I find the new missions amazing.  But I already see a lot of hesitation compared to the (IMHO bland and easy gameable) ITC missions, especially over that one with the Null Zone that "screws over Daemons".

[Khornestar]

Well, do read the “for the most part” that I included in the sentence. At any rate, I personally find it to be a weak excuse as well. I see no reason to exclude rules changes. Then add to that the fact that a hard copy is a very poor vehicle to deliver rules or points changes when new books are released almost monthly. Recently released codices are left out due to publication time, so the whole endeavor loses a bit of teeth given that not all armies are accounted for. Oh well. There’s always the somewhat plausible option for them to redo codices within this edition, and they’re waiting to initiate more meaningful changes in this format so they can squeeze us for all they can. Cynical, I s’pose.

[Sonoftherubric21]

That terminal mission sounds really fun. One of my biggest problems lately is I play to the mission while opponents sit in their buff castles for 80% of the game and shoot me off the board and then score most of their points the last turn. It's very frustrating and it seems very brainless and uninvolved.

 

I usually play the maelstrom missions (the card missions name right?) as almost all of them force adaptation of lists. Often "murder everything" is useless unless you can table every single model of your opponents. it helps a fair bit, especially when "static" lists get the objectives in the mid field or across the board or things like "get into your opponents deployment zone" or things akin to it. 

 

Those and new missions balance the game far better IMHO from my time played in 8th. I play in a Semi-Competetive and Casual meta so I go between "competitive" or tougher lists and very casual lists. 

[Tyriks]

I'm really excited for the new Eternal War missions. I think especially if you're randomly picking one (and therefore don't know going into it what units even can score) it will force relatively balanced lists. ITC missions are fine mechanically but bland for sure.

[Yossarion]

 

 

Man I wish you could just completely customize chosen/veterans. Like if you want all 10 to have combi-flamers and power swords (or chainswords) you could do it. Yeah you can take two units of 5 but you can only take 3 total.

 

 

Man I wish you could just completely customize chosen/veterans. Like if you want all 10 to have combi-flamers and power swords (or chainswords) you could do it. Yeah you can take two units of 5 but you can only take 3 total.

Huh? One squad can take six combi-weps, can't they? And they can all take melee weapons since the FAQ, no?

Yep.

 

I find the main issue is delivery. The Rhino is too easy to blow up, the LR is still too expensive realistically, the Dreadclaw means a 9" charge, and the Alpha Legion Stratagem is reliant on going first, as deploying outside your deployment zone means you don't get the cover save from Prepared Positions and not likely to get the -1 to hit.

Use a storm eagle

[Wayniac]

I'm really excited for the new Eternal War missions. I think especially if you're randomly picking one (and therefore don't know going into it what units even can score) it will force relatively balanced lists. ITC missions are fine mechanically but bland for sure.

Ironically, the fact they force relatively balanced lists seems to be exactly why I'm seeing such disdain leveled at them elsewhere.  It reduces the emphasis on list-building which seems to be a cardinal sin amongst the competitive crowd now, as they want list-building and figuring out combos to stack to be one of, if not the most important part of the game.

[Azekai]

 

I'm really excited for the new Eternal War missions. I think especially if you're randomly picking one (and therefore don't know going into it what units even can score) it will force relatively balanced lists. ITC missions are fine mechanically but bland for sure.

Ironically, the fact they force relatively balanced lists seems to be exactly why I'm seeing such disdain leveled at them elsewhere.  It reduces the emphasis on list-building which seems to be a cardinal sin amongst the competitive crowd now, as they want list-building and figuring out combos to stack to be one of, if not the most important part of the game.

 

Well, they can suck an egg. I think the least fun part of this game is when it is already decided before the bones are rolled. Why bother spending 3+ hours dying slowly when you know what the outcome is going be be? This is different in a tourney setting, of course, where you get punished for making a list incapable of taking all comers, but for a 'friendly game' the Eternal War sounds like a godsend.

[Panzer]

Just read the new Eternal War missions. They sound really great so far. Not sure if I like going back to people having to place their whole army in one go (tho that's not new to CA18) but I'm looking forward to at least trying those new missions out a few times!

[ChazSexington]

 

So trying to update my lists.... Increasingly annoyed as the cultist points increase is such a huge nerf and the points drops don't help with core troops. We've just been screwed over again in my mind.

 

May I ask why this is the outlook you have?  I am a tad confused on this. I don't "spam" cultists by any stretch, but I usually have roughly 40 in a 2000 point list for my Black Legion. 

 

The rest of those lists is a mixture of tanks, dreads, engines, and chaos marines of various types (troops, plagues, chosen, noise marines, havocs) loaded for bear with special weapons. As you can imagine from CA, my list shot down in cost dramatically even WITH the cultist increase.  To the tune of about 150 points. My 2k list all of a sudden hovered just over 1850. I can only see this as a net gain for obvious reasons. 

 

 

 

I agree. A list would have to contain a LOT of cultists for a list to have a net increase. This certainly isn’t impossible by any stretch, but I think most lists will allow for more upgrades, if not more units outright.

 

I play between 40 and 90, all depending, but the issue is, as pointed out, our Battalions didn't really see any significant point drop. Cultists are still considerably better than CSMs, so we're forced into either 150pt instead of 120pt Troop tax (I'd argue Cultists are still a good choice), which is, in most cases a 30pt increase, or taking CSMs, which got a ~10 point drop for a 10-man squad.. For my casual list, I went down maybe 50pt because a 2pt drop on Chosen, a 2pt drop on special weapons etc. just doesn't have the quantity to really make the list drop in points when my Cultists are bumping up by 1pt on 40-90 models.

 

FLG is essentially a GW propaganda machine at this point so I'd take anything they say with a grain of salt.  Given that CA did change some datasheets, the whole "it's not for changing rules" thing is bogus at this point anyways.  

 

I wholly disagree - listen to the most recent Chapter Tactics. While Reece is always hyped for new stuff, he definitely isn't happy CSMs/SMs didn't drop etc., but he explains why they didn't, along with why the Loyal 32 didn't increase etc. Jason quite often makes fun of GW, and Geoff can be pretty spot on, and he even works as a Warhammer TV pundit.

 

That terminal mission sounds really fun. One of my biggest problems lately is I play to the mission while opponents sit in their buff castles for 80% of the game and shoot me off the board and then score most of their points the last turn. It's very frustrating and it seems very brainless and uninvolved.

 

That's end game scoring for ya. Shooting your opponent off the table for 5 turns, then try to control a few Objectives.

 

 

Not for changing rules.... Save all the rules that were changed....

 

Insist that if they play a "comp" list that your friends play the Chapter Approved missions with you.  The design for them takes a note out of the Infinity/Corvus Belli playbook. (this is a good thing)

 

for the new missions in chapter approved they are designed to focus exclusively on the objective play. For perspective: In all of these missions "kill points" are not applicable, first blood is not used as a metric for scoring the way it was originally written, and a player can WIN the game EVEN IF they are "tabled" due to objective points. If you score more on objectives then your enemy, and then they table you? you still win. 

 

One of them (as example) is a "terminal" mission, an HQ unit must get in base contact with a terminal to "hack it" but only HQ models can do it. this forces HQ models into the center of the board (or closer to it) and will force your opponents to alter their playstyles. static gunlines cannot win these missions.  

 

Food for thought.

 

 

While I'm generally a fan of the new missions, that doesn't sound too negative for gunlines, rather the opposite. You can keep slaughtering any army that can't outshoot you, as it has to stay in the middle, increasing the chance of tabling. 

 

 

I'm really excited for the new Eternal War missions. I think especially if you're randomly picking one (and therefore don't know going into it what units even can score) it will force relatively balanced lists. ITC missions are fine mechanically but bland for sure.

 

I like they're trying progressive scoring. I think the new ones are basically more balanced casual missions.

 

I still think their biggest travesty of a mission was the first mission in the Konor Campaign. 1 VP per surviving unit for Chaos, 1 VP Killpoints for the Imperium. Basically, Chaos has to table their opponent to stand a chance. 

[Iron_Within]

The thing I'm currently looking at is (still) chosen.

A 5 man unit of chosen in a rhino could double up with a 5 man unit of csm. You can "double up" your abilities and it takes care of the troops tax but still gives the cam unit something to do (supporting the chosen).

E.g. a unit of chosen with flamers could be paired with CSM with plasma/Combi plas and now they have a multi role function. Or double up on the same weapons have 7 of a special weapon in a rhino relatively cheaply.

A 5 man chosen with Combi flamers and a unit of 5 CSM with flamer/Combi flamer and power swords on each champion comes to 197 points, which isn't bad when you're playing 7d6 flamers on.

Alternatively a 7 plasma squad and 2 power swords is 216 points. Again, not bad.

[Cryptix]

I'm currently looking at a brigade or R&H (I know, I know, but here me out!) and a slaaneshi alpha legion vanguard detachment with chaos lord, 3 min squads of chosen with chainsword, 4 plasmas, and champion with combi-plas and power fist, and 2 min squads of raptors with double plasma and combi-plas. The idea is the troops of the brigade advance up and use weight of numbers to hold objectives while the scout sentinels and heavy weapon squads w/ autocannons and the CSM detachment take care of any vehicles.