Guard and 2018 Chapter Approved

[Tokugawa]

Creed at 55pts is excellent value.

 

Same number of orders as Platoon Commander and Company Commander (3 - 50pts)

 

So for 5pts extra you getting

-12" voice of command

-2 bonus CP

Creed cannot take "grand strategist". And if you nominate other model as warlord to take the trait, Creed would lose +2CPs bonus.

 

So that line is printed "+2 CPs", but may be readed as "-1 ~ -3 CPs".

[Chris521]

Grand Strategist isn't the auto include it used to be and with how many command points guard have, the 2 points is really just a bonus.  Creed can greatly increase your order saturation, something that has become a bigger problem with the rule of 3.

[HallofStovokor]

Grand Strategist isn't the auto include it used to be and with how many command points guard have, the 2 points is really just a bonus. Creed can greatly increase your order saturation, something that has become a bigger problem with the rule of 3.

Hell yeah, 3 orders with superior tactical training. You can get 6 squads orders with just Creed.

[Wassa]

The ony problem with Creed is that he can’t take Laurels of Command :(.

[GuardDaddy]

Tokugawa - your point about Creed is correct, though I have moved away from that warlord trait anyway.

 

Bearing in mind that for 105pts you can fill FA slot for a brigade now I'd argue guard don't really need a CP farm.

 

In fact i've added vox casters to screen/assault units as have so many CP now I can use fire on my position strat often during game!

[HallofStovokor]

Tokugawa - your point about Creed is correct, though I have moved away from that warlord trait anyway.

 

Bearing in mind that for 105pts you can fill FA slot for a brigade now I'd argue guard don't really need a CP farm.

 

In fact i've added vox casters to screen/assault units as have so many CP now I can use fire on my position strat often during game!

I tend to think of fire on my position as an added benefit to the voxcaster. I usually end up with troops spread out to secure objectives or deny deepstrike. My local meta uses a lot of snipers, so oftentimes they are trying to snipe my commanders. The voxcasters give me the ability to weather a lost company commander that otherwise would lead a 5th of my troops without orders. Also, I like to get my veterans pretty far forward in a chimera to take out high value targets in turn 2 or 3. Giving veterans take aim when they're 18" away means that they can really hurt an enemy's back line.

[Gothical]

The Chapter Approved stuff is making me really like Guard again - though I now have the problem of too many great units and not enough points.

 

A few tactical questions in light of the new costs,

 

1) I see a lot of praise for Demolishers, what is the best way to run them? I am torn between Plasma Cannon sponsons (since the main cannon hits small, elite units hard) and Heavy Flamers (for linebreaking and overwatch) - perhaps even Multi-Meltas (no Land Raider for you!). I am considering using it as a home for Pask, since BS2+ would make the most out of the Demolisher Cannon's D3 shots against single targets - good idea, or are there still better homes for him?

 

2) With the drop in costs of the Vanquisher Cannon and Augur Array is the Vanquisher still so bad? I play Cadians so have access to Overlapping Fields of Fire for a theoretical 3+ To Hit re-rolling one miss per game (other turns I can re-roll 1s with Doctrine/Tank Order), so a 72" Meltagun feels pretty tasty. Enginseers are cheaper too meaning you can keep in the better BS band more easily. I tend to run quite a few Russes so have armour saturation on my side. I know Vigilus brings the new battlecannon relic but I quite like my TC to have Executioner Cannon and Relic of Lost Cadia, or I run Pask.

 

3) Sentinels all seem pretty great now, the Scout sentinel's move helps get mid-strength weaponry into good positions early on, as well as pushing back T2 deepstrikers. The Armoured Sentinel seems a fairly good weapons platform, moving with them is not ideal but I figure that they make more durable HWSs and therefore are quite important, especially since the Rule of 3 hampers list building if taking Mortar Squads. I am not sure what weapon it wants. The Plasma Cannon seems good for bullying heavy infantry, but Overcharging it is suicidal (removes the Sentinel, not deals a mortal wound), so I am considering the Missile Launcher or Lascannon. The former has more flexibility and is also now cheaper, but the latter as always punches harder.

 

I must say I am glad that Infantry Squads didn't go up in cost, with the drop of weapon costs they are now much better fire support than previously. I still run screening units with just a Special but now don't feel like I am hampering myself by throwing in a Heavy on line squads. Trading order efficiency (though can combine over 2 turns for 3 HWT in a blob) for more durability is worth it in the current environment, even if I do miss the concentrated firepower of a Lascannon/Autocannon squad (perhaps I will run 2 Mortar units then one triple LC/AC/HB unit instead, supported by Sentinels/Russes to cause target priority issues).

[WarriorFish]

I can help in one point: don't worry about Land Raiders. They aren't great even with the CA points drop so you're unlikely to see them (and if you do, charge them with a Guardsman... ). The Demolisher cannon has always been solid but now is more affordable so can return to lists, with how close enemies are going to get I'd try flamers. Lets you clear out units you get too close nicely. As for Pask that 2+ wants as many shots as possible to be best, plus you don't want to be out of range so I wouldn't give him a Demolisher.

 

The Vanquisher has the same problem as before in being a single shot, I think you're still better off going for weight of dice for example a battlecannon can match that potential 6 damage and more with less risk of failure due to the multiple shots. Sentinels are much better now with the point drop, though they still don't make stellar shooting platforms some mobility is good and there's always the classic DS denying picket role to perform :)

[Trickstick]

The Chapter Approved stuff is making me really like Guard again - though I now have the problem of too many great units and not enough points.

 

A few tactical questions in light of the new costs,

 

1) I see a lot of praise for Demolishers, what is the best way to run them? I am torn between Plasma Cannon sponsons (since the main cannon hits small, elite units hard) and Heavy Flamers (for linebreaking and overwatch) - perhaps even Multi-Meltas (no Land Raider for you!). I am considering using it as a home for Pask, since BS2+ would make the most out of the Demolisher Cannon's D3 shots against single targets - good idea, or are there still better homes for him?

 

2) With the drop in costs of the Vanquisher Cannon and Augur Array is the Vanquisher still so bad? I play Cadians so have access to Overlapping Fields of Fire for a theoretical 3+ To Hit re-rolling one miss per game (other turns I can re-roll 1s with Doctrine/Tank Order), so a 72" Meltagun feels pretty tasty. Enginseers are cheaper too meaning you can keep in the better BS band more easily. I tend to run quite a few Russes so have armour saturation on my side. I know Vigilus brings the new battlecannon relic but I quite like my TC to have Executioner Cannon and Relic of Lost Cadia, or I run Pask.

 

3) Sentinels all seem pretty great now, the Scout sentinel's move helps get mid-strength weaponry into good positions early on, as well as pushing back T2 deepstrikers. The Armoured Sentinel seems a fairly good weapons platform, moving with them is not ideal but I figure that they make more durable HWSs and therefore are quite important, especially since the Rule of 3 hampers list building if taking Mortar Squads. I am not sure what weapon it wants. The Plasma Cannon seems good for bullying heavy infantry, but Overcharging it is suicidal (removes the Sentinel, not deals a mortal wound), so I am considering the Missile Launcher or Lascannon. The former has more flexibility and is also now cheaper, but the latter as always punches harder.

 

I must say I am glad that Infantry Squads didn't go up in cost, with the drop of weapon costs they are now much better fire support than previously. I still run screening units with just a Special but now don't feel like I am hampering myself by throwing in a Heavy on line squads. Trading order efficiency (though can combine over 2 turns for 3 HWT in a blob) for more durability is worth it in the current environment, even if I do miss the concentrated firepower of a Lascannon/Autocannon squad (perhaps I will run 2 Mortar units then one triple LC/AC/HB unit instead, supported by Sentinels/Russes to cause target priority issues).

1: I would be reluctant to give a 24" range cannon anything that prevents it moving. I run them Tallarn las/plas, but that only works if you can move without the -1 to hit. For Cadian, I would probably go with 3x bolters or flamers, as you can move and not lose too much power.

 

2: Vanquishers are still bad. I really want them to be good as my FW vanquisher looks so cool, but they are just statistically horrible. However, the new relic fits the fluff for a vanquisher so I'm just going to use that. With the price drop on commanders,it may be worth it for you to just take a second one. Exeutioner is great for Cadian, so that is a good choice too.

 

3: Armoured sentinels seem much better to me. They can take a fair bit of fire. Again, I run Tallarn which lets them move freely and really opens up the options. Otherwise, they are a bit like turrets. Stick them in terrain and they are durable heavy weapons. Plasma can work with Cadians, as the rerolls help to deal with the overheats. You should use overcharge sparingly though, as it is risky.

[Wassa]

The standard Cadian Vanquisher isn't worth taking.

 

Theres a forgeworld Vanquisher (Stygies or Ryza) that gets +1 to hit if it doesn't move, and it has a coaxial storm bolter that allows you to reroll the Vanquisher cannon if it misses.

So that's automatically hitting on 3+ if it doesn't move, rerolling 1s and 2s if the storm bolter is in range.

 

You could make that 2+ with overlapping fields of fire.

[Shamansky]

 

The Chapter Approved stuff is making me really like Guard again - though I now have the problem of too many great units and not enough points.

 

A few tactical questions in light of the new costs,

 

1) I see a lot of praise for Demolishers, what is the best way to run them? I am torn between Plasma Cannon sponsons (since the main cannon hits small, elite units hard) and Heavy Flamers (for linebreaking and overwatch) - perhaps even Multi-Meltas (no Land Raider for you!). I am considering using it as a home for Pask, since BS2+ would make the most out of the Demolisher Cannon's D3 shots against single targets - good idea, or are there still better homes for him?

 

2) With the drop in costs of the Vanquisher Cannon and Augur Array is the Vanquisher still so bad? I play Cadians so have access to Overlapping Fields of Fire for a theoretical 3+ To Hit re-rolling one miss per game (other turns I can re-roll 1s with Doctrine/Tank Order), so a 72" Meltagun feels pretty tasty. Enginseers are cheaper too meaning you can keep in the better BS band more easily. I tend to run quite a few Russes so have armour saturation on my side. I know Vigilus brings the new battlecannon relic but I quite like my TC to have Executioner Cannon and Relic of Lost Cadia, or I run Pask.

 

3) Sentinels all seem pretty great now, the Scout sentinel's move helps get mid-strength weaponry into good positions early on, as well as pushing back T2 deepstrikers. The Armoured Sentinel seems a fairly good weapons platform, moving with them is not ideal but I figure that they make more durable HWSs and therefore are quite important, especially since the Rule of 3 hampers list building if taking Mortar Squads. I am not sure what weapon it wants. The Plasma Cannon seems good for bullying heavy infantry, but Overcharging it is suicidal (removes the Sentinel, not deals a mortal wound), so I am considering the Missile Launcher or Lascannon. The former has more flexibility and is also now cheaper, but the latter as always punches harder.

 

I must say I am glad that Infantry Squads didn't go up in cost, with the drop of weapon costs they are now much better fire support than previously. I still run screening units with just a Special but now don't feel like I am hampering myself by throwing in a Heavy on line squads. Trading order efficiency (though can combine over 2 turns for 3 HWT in a blob) for more durability is worth it in the current environment, even if I do miss the concentrated firepower of a Lascannon/Autocannon squad (perhaps I will run 2 Mortar units then one triple LC/AC/HB unit instead, supported by Sentinels/Russes to cause target priority issues).

1: I would be reluctant to give a 24" range cannon anything that prevents it moving. I run them Tallarn las/plas, but that only works if you can move without the -1 to hit. For Cadian, I would probably go with 3x bolters or flamers, as you can move and not lose too much power.

 

2: Vanquishers are still bad. I really want them to be good as my FW vanquisher looks so cool, but they are just statistically horrible. However, the new relic fits the fluff for a vanquisher so I'm just going to use that. With the price drop on commanders,it may be worth it for you to just take a second one. Exeutioner is great for Cadian, so that is a good choice too.

 

3: Armoured sentinels seem much better to me. They can take a fair bit of fire. Again, I run Tallarn which lets them move freely and really opens up the options. Otherwise, they are a bit like turrets. Stick them in terrain and they are durable heavy weapons. Plasma can work with Cadians, as the rerolls help to deal with the overheats. You should use overcharge sparingly though, as it is risky.

 

In my experience any vehicle with D6 shots MUST be taken with Catachan doctrine only. Add Sgt Harker in 6" and you're even better. But if you hope you're lucky (hope and luck are both heresy by the way) or you've got non-GW dice (casino dice preferred) Demolisher with melta/plasma sponsons is also kind of good with Vostroyan doctrine but it will want to stay stationary. Tallarn is the most useful doctrine for moving tanks, while Cadian is best for homesitters, but you better take something with constant number of shots or invest some points into a Cadian Tank Commander nearby.

[Shamansky]

The standard Cadian Vanquisher isn't worth taking.

 

Theres a forgeworld Vanquisher (Stygies or Ryza) that gets +1 to hit if it doesn't move, and it has a coaxial storm bolter that allows you to reroll the Vanquisher cannon if it misses.

So that's automatically hitting on 3+ if it doesn't move, rerolling 1s and 2s if the storm bolter is in range.

 

You could make that 2+ with overlapping fields of fire.

According to FAQ Ryza pattern has Heavy Stubber instead of Storm Bolter which makes it more preferrable dew to range. And as far as i recall the co-axial weapon just needs to shoot at the same target as the main gun (not to hit or wound, just shoot at) Ryza pattern looks better.

[duz_]

I was thinking a 5pts the augur array is worth a consideration now

The Vanquisher would definitely benefit from it, but only for that one turn must make roll

Its still kinda meh though. Melta is in a similar boat in general.

 

Heavy flamers dropping in points is nice for LRs and Baneblades too :)

[NatBrannigan]

Just wondering what to put into my normal list now it's 200 pts cheaper or so!

 

Maybe a couple of Basilisks, then move a few things around to make them and a Wyvern into a Emperors Wrath detachment.

 

This will need a serious play around I think, hope Battlescribe is updated sharpish.

[Tirak]

The Vanq is fundamentally flawed, it needs a total scrapping and reconsidering, as price is never going to fix the problem of so few shots compared to the BC.

 

As for the Demo question, I like my tanks cheap and cheerful, especially since you've gotta get close. If you positively cannot live without sponsons, maybe flamers and go full fireball Demo to try to force the enemy to give you some space when you inevitably get charged

[Trickstick]

Just wondering what to put into my normal list now it's 200 pts cheaper or so!

 

Maybe a couple of Basilisks, then move a few things around to make them and a Wyvern into a Emperors Wrath detachment.

 

This will need a serious play around I think, hope Battlescribe is updated sharpish.

It's updated Saturday I heard. You can go grab the files if you play around with the folders a bit, it just isn't officially released yet. I'm trying to decide on my heavy support choices. Tempted to split the tanks out into a spearhead, but that leaves a hole in my brigade. Maybe some artillery.

 

Edit: The placement of the quote button keeps messing me up!

[Tirak]

Well if you can make up the points, it's 99 points for 3 HWTs with mortars, 135 points for 3 Sentinel Power Lifters and 102 points for 3 Tarantula Batteries for your cheapest slot fillers in the Heavy Support Category.

[Wassa]

It was updated on battlescribe but they pulled it after. You can look at the respository and probably tweak it though.

[Trickstick]

It was updated on battlescribe but they pulled it after. You can look at the respository and probably tweak it though.

 

I just went in, grabbed the updated astramilitarum.cat file from the repository, deleted and replaced the astramilitarum.catz file, then did an "import data from file" to finish. Worked fine as a stopgap until Saturday.

[NatBrannigan]

I think I'll just wait until Saturday and then go to town.

 

A Spearhead of Tanks or Artillery to give them the appropriate Vigilus Detachment with something else then filling in the gaps looks like a plan.

 

Maybe 2 Spearheads... one of each. Then a Brigade with the stabby bayonet or mechanised infantry Detachments!

 

Or maybe I shouldn't get too carried away just yet ;)

 

Now on a more serious note, I wanted to add a Basilisk or 2 anyway, and now seems like the time. What model to use? The GW ones are out of stock. Forgeworld? The Solar Auxilia ones are ace but I'm not made of money!

[Trickstick]

 

Now on a more serious note, I wanted to add a Basilisk or 2 anyway, and now seems like the time. What model to use? The GW ones are out of stock. Forgeworld? The Solar Auxilia ones are ace but I'm not made of money!

 

I would just wait for them to restock, or have a look around 3rd party stores for some. Until then, maybe proxy for a few games to try them out.

[NatBrannigan]

I think they’ve been out of stock for a long time... I don’t know if they’re actually being sold any more :(

[Wassa]

Basilisks? They were in stock in the UK within 2-3 weeks ago.

Picked up 2 for myself :)

[HallofStovokor]

I checked the GW website today. They have basilisks in stock.

[NatBrannigan]

Out of stock in the UK at the moment, but if they’re still being made I’ll just bide my time :)