HallofStovokor Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Out of stock in the UK at the moment, but if they’re still being made I’ll just bide my time :) Unless they make a better artillery piece, guard players would revolt at the discontinuance of the basilisk. Even after the points drop on the manticore, most people are going to probably still prefer the basilisk. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5212955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trickstick Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Out of stock in the UK at the moment, but if they’re still being made I’ll just bide my time Unless they make a better artillery piece, guard players would revolt at the discontinuance of the basilisk. Even after the points drop on the manticore, most people are going to probably still prefer the basilisk. Emperor's Wrath pretty much sealed the Basilisk as the primary artillery piece. It is better than the wyvern and hydra, with the manticore not getting the bonuses. I would say if you just want a single piece, then a manticore is a good choice. If you want more, then three Basilisks, or two and a Hydra, with a Master of Ordnance makes a great section with Emperor's Wrath. Some games you could use suppressing fire every turn with the cheap hydra and it would be so good. Having speed is really powerful Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5212965 Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Lets move the discussion on the availability of the Basilisk on gents, also the Formation discussion is probably better left for the Vigilus thread :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5212969 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris521 Posted December 11, 2018 Author Share Posted December 11, 2018 So I guess the big question now is what happens on Saturday. While we know the contents of the chapter approved book, there still could be updates to the faq pages. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5213199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gothical Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 I can help in one point: don't worry about Land Raiders. They aren't great even with the CA points drop so you're unlikely to see them (and if you do, charge them with a Guardsman... ). The Demolisher cannon has always been solid but now is more affordable so can return to lists, with how close enemies are going to get I'd try flamers. Lets you clear out units you get too close nicely. As for Pask that 2+ wants as many shots as possible to be best, plus you don't want to be out of range so I wouldn't give him a Demolisher. The Vanquisher has the same problem as before in being a single shot, I think you're still better off going for weight of dice for example a battlecannon can match that potential 6 damage and more with less risk of failure due to the multiple shots. Sentinels are much better now with the point drop, though they still don't make stellar shooting platforms some mobility is good and there's always the classic DS denying picket role to perform On the Demolisher front, I meant more targeting any sort of heavy armour, Land Raiders just spring to mind as the toughest non-FW beast in the game - I'm not entirely sure what else it is meant to target other than small, elite units. I was reading some Vindicator/CA Demolisher cost thoughts and lots of people were saying the LR Demolisher is, and has been, great - I've been out of the loop but it doesn't seem that good to me. I won't put Pask in one as per your advice, I'll save him for the Punisher/Executioner! The Vanquisher would be 2 turret shots if used as a sniper, but I certainly get your point - and another user's point addressed below that the relic BC exists now too. 2 shots with 2D6-pick-the-highest just feels more reliable than D6xD3 damage though. For a long-ranged tankhunter I could always try my Basilisk instead I guess, it has the same profile as the Battle Cannon (higher strength) but with 2D6-pick-the-highest shots it is far more reliable...though the Russ can shoot twice so maybe not. Argh. I was thinking of using a few Scout Sentinels as a picket, I know DS has been nerfed with the Big FAQ but they are still useful for preventing Turn 2 melta-bombs against Russes and stymieing deepstrike charges. I'm figuring Autocannons here so that single models can overcome BS4+ with a gun with some punch, but equally the flexibility of the Missile Launcher is a little appealing on a picket (not that the army needs much help with anti-infantry firepower!). Do you think pairs of Lascannon Armoured Sentinels could work? 100pts for 2 shots per unit feels very steep, but if paired with a 3-Lascannon HWT it would help confuse target priority. 1: I would be reluctant to give a 24" range cannon anything that prevents it moving. I run them Tallarn las/plas, but that only works if you can move without the -1 to hit. For Cadian, I would probably go with 3x bolters or flamers, as you can move and not lose too much power. 2: Vanquishers are still bad. I really want them to be good as my FW vanquisher looks so cool, but they are just statistically horrible. However, the new relic fits the fluff for a vanquisher so I'm just going to use that. With the price drop on commanders,it may be worth it for you to just take a second one. Exeutioner is great for Cadian, so that is a good choice too. 3: Armoured sentinels seem much better to me. They can take a fair bit of fire. Again, I run Tallarn which lets them move freely and really opens up the options. Otherwise, they are a bit like turrets. Stick them in terrain and they are durable heavy weapons. Plasma can work with Cadians, as the rerolls help to deal with the overheats. You should use overcharge sparingly though, as it is risky. 1. Sounds good. I will probably try Flamers as I already run 3x HB on a Punisher and the charging deterrent/flame-and-charge potential (especially with Dozer Blade and Crush Them) could be a surprise for the opponent. 2. Hadn't thought about taking more than 1 Commander. That flat 3 damage is a massive upgrade, but I keep forgetting all the other stuff that Formation brings. I love the Executioner, previously I ran it with triple HB to avoid Overheats, since 8th you have the choice to Overcharge or not and now with cheaper PCs I might go for the full Plasma-boat, especially if using it as my Commander. I'm assuming I will want a hull Lascannon for the similar AP banding (especially if BS3+). 3. I was definitely thinking of using the Armoured version like a turret, well perhaps in pairs to mitigate BS4+, to draw firepower away from the Russes and Heavy Weapon Squads. I hadn't thought of the Cadian benefits on the Plasma, that is more appealing (and yes, used sparingly/in emergencies), the D3 shots makes up for the lower power of the Lascannon - Space Marine players are swearing by Plasma Cannon Devastators now with their cheaper costs, in numbers they out-perform Lascannons at anti-tank apparently! I was thinking a 5pts the augur array is worth a consideration now The Vanquisher would definitely benefit from it, but only for that one turn must make roll Its still kinda meh though. Melta is in a similar boat in general. Heavy flamers dropping in points is nice for LRs and Baneblades too What would you stick the Augur Array on now? With all the main guns being D6 shots would you use it on the hull Lascannon, or would you simply use it as insurance for those turns when you roll a 1 for number of shots? The Vanq is fundamentally flawed, it needs a total scrapping and reconsidering, as price is never going to fix the problem of so few shots compared to the BC. As for the Demo question, I like my tanks cheap and cheerful, especially since you've gotta get close. If you positively cannot live without sponsons, maybe flamers and go full fireball Demo to try to force the enemy to give you some space when you inevitably get charged I try to keep my tanks relatively cheap, only tricking out the specialists - my regular Russes simply carry a Heavy Bolter in the hull and a Heavy Stubber atop for looks, were I to use a Vanq I would only take the Lascannon, whereas Punisher will have triple HB and a Stubber etc. Wasn't sure which side the Demolisher would fall on - or perhaps it can do both? With the Vigilus rumours the "fireball" might be an option since there's apparently a stratagem/something to allow you to move and still fire turret twice, and HF auto-hit so don't care about penalties. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5213225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mertbl Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Tank Commander vs Pask. With the point drop on tank commanders, is pask worth it now being 35 points more? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5213406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HallofStovokor Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 I think that Pask is still great, but it's going to be a tougher call with the point reduction. He's still got a BS of 2+ and 2 orders. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5213408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokugawa Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 I think that Pask is still great, but it's going to be a tougher call with the point reduction. He's still got a BS of 2+ and 2 orders.Pask become "tougher" after CA2018 & Vigilus. The TankCo with relic barrel would draw most hostility and die first; that used to be the role of Pask before. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5213433 Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamantium_wang Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 I'm having a bit of a dilemma with Pask post CA. He's still very good for his role but now that Tank Commanders have dropped to a 20 point upgrade over a regular Russ, I'm wondering if the extra 35 on top of *that* would be better spent upgrading other Russes to Commanders. I used to run a Spearhead of Pask in an Executioner, two LRBTs and a Punisher, but now I'm wondering off instead I should take a Supreme Command, drop Pask and make them *all* Tank Commanders instead. Having my regular lists drop from anywhere from 60 to 100 points would help cover it even if I decided to keep Pask. One tank with BS2+ and 2-3 orders a turn is good, but I'm wondering if 3 or 4 tanks with BS3+ that can order themselves would be better. And that's not even starting to think about the new formation and Relic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5213437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sairence Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 I find the overwatch argument for sponsons a bit faulty...my tanks haven't been charged in ages, they've gotten consolidated into. I'll likely still go sponson-less or Heavy Bolters. Everything else rarely feels worth it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5213450 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trickstick Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 I find the overwatch argument for sponsons a bit faulty...my tanks haven't been charged in ages, they've gotten consolidated into. I'll likely still go sponson-less or Heavy Bolters. Everything else rarely feels worth it. Bolters are good because they are the cheapest and do a decent enough job for the cost. Half a dozen extra bolters are going to help a bit over the course of a game, as long as you are not taking the -1 to hit a lot. Flamers are quite niche, with their short range and high cost. I think they can work on something like a Catatchan Demolisher, with all of the rerolled shots numbers. If you can get that thing in range it can really ruin someone's day, and it forces longer range charges as 3x flamers hurts. Plasma is really worth considering, now it is only 2 points more than a bolter. You are trading strength for risk, both in number of shots and possible overheats. As long as you are not getting the -1 they are pretty good though, and at such a small increase over bolters I am really tempted to make them my go-to sponson. Meltas are not great. All they get over standard meltas is extra range, and are quite expensive. In fact, they are the only "heavy" gun variant that is no more powerful than the standard variant. I would consider them at str 9 or something, but they just seem a bit pointless to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5213485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sairence Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Oh, I hadn't realised Plasma had dropped so much...that may actually make them usable if you want to go for sponsons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5213504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wassa Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 I'm glad Pask is no longer a must take if you're running multiple Leman Russes now that TC's are cheaper. It finally lets me switch to Catachans which can reroll their shots for all weapons anyway without feeling bad that I'm missing out on Pask! I initially had Pask in a Punisher, but now I prefer him at the back, far out of range of enemy Lascannons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5213516 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 The good thing about the battlecannon is the versatility too, if there's no big bad to slap about you can punish some heavy infantry just as well. I still use my lascannon Armoured Sentinels, although not that often, they can offer a bit more durability and mobility which is useful but they work best in an armour heavy list or they probably won't last long. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5213523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wassa Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 I'm not really a fan of using Sentinels for the ranged guns as turrets, too many points for a 1 shot 50:50 hit. I much prefer having them in an Infantry Squad that I can give Take Aim too and reroll all missed hits (as cadian). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5213529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trickstick Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 I'm not really a fan of using Sentinels for the ranged guns as turrets, too many points for a 1 shot 50:50 hit. I much prefer having them in an Infantry Squad that I can give Take Aim too and reroll all missed hits (as cadian). I really like sentinels. I will admit that they are much better as Tallarn, as they are no longer just turrets. However, they do have some things going for them. If all you want is a lascannon, then they are 10 points cheaper than an infantry squad. If you factor in the order giver, they are at least 25 points cheaper. That is ignoring the lasguns of course. They can shrug off a lot of small arms, which may cause the enemy to turn AT guns on them. If you have heavier tanks, such as russes, those are shots that are not going towards them. They also stay 100% effective until they are dead. Add to that the fact that sentinels are cheap brigade fillers and they definitely have their uses. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5213566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
noigrim Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 I like my russes without sponsons and the battlecanon has always disappointed me. I'm aiming at two battalions one of mordians+vets the other of cadia tank cmd +relic gun plus allota mortars Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5213592 Share on other sites More sharing options...
domsto Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 I think a full plasma Tank Commander is now one of the best Russ variants Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5213627 Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 I think a full plasma Tank Commander is now one of the best Russ variants Imho he already was ;) Now he just got substantially cheaper! :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5213669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Titanz0r Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 I was going over my list to modify for the changes, and it just occurred to me: How does this affect things like Index and Imperial Armor units? Specifically, I've used the Gryphonne Chimera for the Twin Heavy Bolter turret. Does this mean I'll still be using 75 point Chimeras, as the points change affects 'Chimera' and not 'Gryphonne Pattern Chimera,' if I continue to use them? This would be entirely frustrating, as I've modeled my Chimeras to use Baal Predator turrets with two heavy bolters. Sidenote: I always thought it was funny that the Gryphonne Pattern Chimera has only one Lasgun array, according to the datacard. The Chimera is supposed to have two. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5213729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trickstick Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 I was going over my list to modify for the changes, and it just occurred to me: How does this affect things like Index and Imperial Armor units? Specifically, I've used the Gryphonne Chimera for the Twin Heavy Bolter turret. Does this mean I'll still be using 75 point Chimeras, as the points change affects 'Chimera' and not 'Gryphonne Pattern Chimera,' if I continue to use them? This would be entirely frustrating, as I've modeled my Chimeras to use Baal Predator turrets with two heavy bolters. Sidenote: I always thought it was funny that the Gryphonne Pattern Chimera has only one Lasgun array, according to the datacard. The Chimera is supposed to have two. Yeah they are different units, so the Gryphonne doesn't get the cost reduction. Did you have the hull weapon removable? You could just take it off and have two bolters again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5213742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Titanz0r Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 I figured as much. It can be so aggravating trying to keep track of the multitude of books, codecies, and points changes throughout all of it. Although, I suppose I should see the bright side that this frees up a fair number of points to add in more of other units. Any idea what I can sprinkle on for 25 to 50 points? I guess I can actually equip all my squads with vox-casters... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5213883 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trickstick Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Astropaths, powerfists, techpriests, plasma pistols, stubbers. All decent enough options. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5213887 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Cross Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 I'm glad Pask is no longer a must take if you're running multiple Leman Russes now that TC's are cheaper. It finally lets me switch to Catachans which can reroll their shots for all weapons anyway without feeling bad that I'm missing out on Pask! I initially had Pask in a Punisher, but now I prefer him at the back, far out of range of enemy Lascannons. I've been rocking Catachans for months and I never missed Pask. Now I have enough points for another TC! To maximize efficiency, I keep 1 TC in the back with the battle cannon, lascannon, and plasma sponsons. Then his battle buddy is a battle cannon + lascannon russ. They are usually near SGT Harker who buffs them so that on turn 1 they can pop strike and shroud and still reroll 1s. Then Harker usually moves off to support my infantry firebase. While that stuff happens in the back I move up my 4 infantry squads in Chimeras with Straken, priest, CC, and Astropath. That is supported by a hellhound or 2 and a punisher with triple flamers. Most people never know what to target and end up going for the punisher russ every time and that damn thing has NEVER performed well, haha. So I am more than happy with them targeting that thing. Catachans is the way to go if you want to have a fun game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5214289 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrZakalwe Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 Hmm just noticed that the Desert Strike Vulture build is no longer so crazily expensive (twin hellstrikes, multiple rocket pods, heavy bolter). The Twin Punisher version will still be better but the cool looking one will no longer be completely useless! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352174-guard-and-2018-chapter-approved/page/6/#findComment-5217345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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