Leak discussion!

[Gaz1858]

 

 

 

 

GK won a large ITC tournament recently

Really? Where? When? How?

In Australia with an army built around GMNDKs and Termies. People found it difficult to shift the termies from obj in cover given the rise of hordes. Less high ap weaponry.

 

GK can win. Theyre not the greatest dex but that doesnt mean you cant win. It just means you need to write lists your local tourneys arent able to deal with well

GKs always do better at lower points limits. Most particularly at 1000 points as far as I know. This is due to the much better mileage we get from our psychic powers at these points, i.e. having 5/6 powers to cast when you only have 5/6 units will yield a much better return than 5/6 powers at 1750 or 2000 points where you could have upwards of 10 units or so. This is where we really see the Rule of One start to damage us.

 

When discussing army or faction effectiveness it's almost always assumed to be at 2000 or 1750 points, given that the majority of main tournaments are played at this scale.

Yeh this tournament was 1750

[STTAB]

Scotland ITC GT was 2000. GK+ loyal 32

[Biscuittzz]

Scotland ITC GT was 2000. GK+ loyal 32

 

What was the list if you can remember? I highly doubt a GK + ONLY loyal 32 won a competitive ITC tournament.....Or was it just a tournament using ITC rules?

 

IF it was something like 3 GNDK in a supreme command + Imperium, well then that's not GKs at all.

[Corvus Fortis]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351136-gk-win-at-scottish-itc-tournament/

 

Here's the list. 3x5 Strikes, 3x gmndk, interceptors, custobikes and loyal 43 (!) for more bodies. 

[Biscuittzz]

Ahh OP conveniently forgot to mention that not only was it more than the usual loyal 32, but 3 shield captains on bikes were included as well. Must have honestly slipped his mind. 

 

My 3 GNDK prediction wasn't far off either.

[Gaz1858]

Heres the list that did well at 1750 in Oz

 

Grey Knights Battalion:

 

 

 

Grand Master with Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Psycannon, Cuirass of Sacrifice (relic) WARLORD - 193 (PL 10)

 

Dreadknight Grand Master with Doomfist, Nemesis Greatsword, Heavy Psycannon and Gatling Psilencer - 275 (PL 14)

 

 

5 Terminators (4 with falchions, 1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer) - 228 (PL 13)

 

 

5 Terminators (4 with falchions, 1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer) - 228 (PL 13)

 

 

5 Terminators (4 with falchions, 1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer) - 228 (PL 13)

 

 

Razorback with Twin-linked Assault Cannon, stormbolter, hunter-killer missile - 122 (PL 5)

 

 

Razorback with Twin-linked Assault Cannon, stormbolter, hunter-killer missile - 122 (PL 5)

 

 

Stormraven Gunship with Twin Assault Cannon, Twin Multi-melta, two Stormstrike missile launchers and two hurricane bolters - 352 (PL 15)

 

 

Total: 1748 points

[Corvus Fortis]

Heres the list that did well at 1750 in Oz

 

Grey Knights Battalion:

 

 

 

Grand Master with Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Psycannon, Cuirass of Sacrifice (relic) WARLORD - 193 (PL 10)

 

Dreadknight Grand Master with Doomfist, Nemesis Greatsword, Heavy Psycannon and Gatling Psilencer - 275 (PL 14)

 

 

5 Terminators (4 with falchions, 1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer) - 228 (PL 13)

 

 

5 Terminators (4 with falchions, 1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer) - 228 (PL 13)

 

 

5 Terminators (4 with falchions, 1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer) - 228 (PL 13)

 

 

Razorback with Twin-linked Assault Cannon, stormbolter, hunter-killer missile - 122 (PL 5)

 

 

Razorback with Twin-linked Assault Cannon, stormbolter, hunter-killer missile - 122 (PL 5)

 

 

Stormraven Gunship with Twin Assault Cannon, Twin Multi-melta, two Stormstrike missile launchers and two hurricane bolters - 352 (PL 15)

 

 

Total: 1748 points

 

The player, however, mentioned in a video, that the tournament gave 2 more CP for a mono-build army, and that ITC rulepack is more benifical for GK too.  

 

 

Here's the vid:

 

And the thread

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345025-grey-knights-competitive-hobby-blog-first-video/

 

It was awhile since I watched, so check it for yourselves.

[STTAB]

*my bad. Forgot the details of the Scottish list. There was that mono tournament, No Retreat 7, in Gibraltar that GK won too.

[Danarc]

so which is the point? one GK won ONE tournament and we should consider the codex ok? 

the codex sucks anyway. it still has overcosted units, overcosted stratagem, less stratagem than other codex, poor mobility, lack of antitank, meh psionic on a psionic army and we are paying for rules that we can't use as when it was released (DS). 

 

It is useless say that someone won with this army (and with different rules respect the official ones). We are complaining since the release of the codex and GW didn't want to listen our reasons. Gk had some point reduced AS OTHER ARMIES (or less than other armies) so we were the worst army before and we are the worst army now. it's maths. if with 150 points we can insert another 5 meh models, IG do it better, as tyr, as dark elder and as almost every other opponent.

[Biscuittzz]

*my bad. Forgot the details of the Scottish list. There was that mono tournament, No Retreat 7, in Gibraltar that GK won too.

 

That was the tournament that Lawrence from TableTop Tactics won. He's quite the tournament player and one of the best in the UK as far as I know. So not exactly a good sampling of the player base.

 

Not to mention that as far as I know it was a Highlander style tournament, so many of the usual meta lists were not applicable. Then you have the fact it was mono-list, which just eliminates soup entirely. If that many caveats need to be tacked on to matched-play or tournaments to make us somewhat stand a chance I am not very hopeful.

 

TTT have a very good video out on their youtube about the No Retreat 7 you mention, goes through the format and all the games.

[Trevak Dal]

I think it's weird you can take transports where your guys can't get into them, though that does give us access to hooptie Baal predators.

[Panzer]

Why would you want to take Baal Predators? Not even Blood Angels take Baal Predators over Razorbacks lol

[TheCastigator]

Having mathed it out, my list actually is more that 200 points cheaper. With some fitness I can get all of the psychic support units in that you’d want. BroCap and PalAncient. Draigo and voldus give you the big powers and your still going to cast 8ish tiny smites a turn on top of that.

 

With the range you can play hide and seek a bit better. Not saying we’re going to set the world on fire, but you can play as a fairly aggressive high pressure force and be successful.

[Corvus Fortis]

Sometimes I feel, that GW tester don't know how to use screening. I see no other reason, why they keep nerfing alpha-strike with every FAQ. 

[Trevak Dal]

If it's the tryhards at Frontline gaming I don't know how that is, unless they are leading things that way.

[HighMarshalAmp]

Sometimes I feel, that GW tester don't know how to use screening. I see no other reason, why they keep nerfing alpha-strike with every FAQ. 

I suspect the community. Opening the feedback channels not only for experienced playtesters, but for everyone who has a voice and opinion might have encouraged casual gamers like myself to write, folks who mainly play at home - but also some who play on blank tables with maybe one LOS blocker.

Then one player dumps half his guys in front of the other, obliterates him with everything he's got and the loser will then of course complain about Alpha Strike being OP...

[Bartali]

It's mostly balancing from tournament (and ITC tournaments specifically) play, no ? 90% of the stuff that's been changed is something that has come up at tournaments. 

The deep strike rule was changed due to Tyranids if I remember rightly ?

[Capt. Mytre]

They gave every unit their own special unique version of the rules, why not use it to nerf the OP units (there are a million ways, -1 to hit, cannot shoot, distance limitations etc)? Instead, we get what happened with the points nerfs to SM, where it just leads to domino effects hitting other armies that weren't an issue.

 

Honestly can't see GW getting any better at their rules, they are all over the place.

[Beams]

It's mostly balancing from tournament (and ITC tournaments specifically) play, no ? 90% of the stuff that's been changed is something that has come up at tournaments.

The deep strike rule was changed due to Tyranids if I remember rightly ?

In part, but it was also changed because a lot of units with deepstrike created a Negative Play Experience for a lot of players. Scions deepstriking in and plasma gunning all of your vehicles before your first turn was also a reason for the Nerf.

[HighMarshalAmp]

 

In part, but it was also changed because a lot of units with deepstrike created a Negative Play Experience for a lot of players. Scions deepstriking in and plasma gunning all of your vehicles before your first turn was also a reason for the Nerf.

Agreed. But in my limited experience with Deep Striking, the first turn Nerf has just turned things 180 for Deep Striking armies.

Now, having even parts of your force in Deep Strike just takes so much away from your offensive capabilities - I can't think of any units I have that could deep Strike while only being effective at 12" or less...

So unless a very, very detrimental deployment map is chosen, you could just kick more behind if you just were to put all your guys in.

It's just me and I completely blame it on my preferences in units, but Deep Striking only is a viable opiton for me in maybe 2 of the 6 stock deployment maps.

 

Frankly, I'd really like to get that fixed. The -1 to hit idea for the player who can't Deep Strike until 3 player turns in is a really good first step.

[Capt. Mytre]

Bring back old school deepstrike, where you can scatter. Bring back mishaps. Add a negative modifier to shooting.

[Panzer]

Urgh no thanks. I'm so glad they got rid of the scatter deep strike.

[Capt. Mytre]

Urgh no thanks. I'm so glad they got rid of the scatter deep strike.

 

The only reason that deepstrike is so broken now is because it's reliable. They know they will land 9.1" away, they know they will get to shoot within rapid fire plasma range, they know that they will kill a unit they target. There needs to be some detractor from just deepstriking everything.

[HighMarshalAmp]

Never having needed any for the units I played, I only bought a Scatter die in the last days of 7th. Never actually got to use it in a game 

[Panzer]

Where is deep strike broken now? I don't see armies winning based on just deep strike. At least people do use deep strike now unlike last edition where people only used reserves when they had access to drop pods because it was a huge drawback to not know when your units come into play, not know where exactly they come into play and then also have the risk to have them just die or come later or arrive somewhere completely else. The deep strike changes are one of the best thing this edition, so yes I'm glad they got rid of the scatter and hope it will never ever return again.