Leak discussion!

[Zamtro]

Where is deep strike broken now? I don't see armies winning based on just deep strike. At least people do use deep strike now unlike last edition where people only used reserves when they had access to drop pods because it was a huge drawback to not know when your units come into play, not know where exactly they come into play and then also have the risk to have them just die or come later or arrive somewhere completely else. The deep strike changes are one of the best thing this edition, so yes I'm glad they got rid of the scatter and hope it will never ever return again.

I actually agree with majority of what you're saying, but they brought it in, in such a lazy haphazard way. It shouldn't mess things up like assassins deployments etc that aren't tactical reserves. Now even the Callidus assassin Polymorphine can only bring her in turn 2, because shes not initially set up.

[Panzer]

Yeah not denying that it could definitely see some improvement. Just going back to how things used to be would be a step back instead of forward in my eyes.

[Capt. Mytre]

Where is deep strike broken now? I don't see armies winning based on just deep strike. At least people do use deep strike now unlike last edition where people only used reserves when they had access to drop pods because it was a huge drawback to not know when your units come into play, not know where exactly they come into play and then also have the risk to have them just die or come later or arrive somewhere completely else. The deep strike changes are one of the best thing this edition, so yes I'm glad they got rid of the scatter and hope it will never ever return again.

 

I just covered why it's broken. In a game where chance can ruin general tactics, DS is too reliable of a tactic for some armies - ie, scions etc. There's a reason it was nerfed to turn 2 + point and unit count limitations.

 

There was significantly more than just scatter last edition. It was turn 2+, random chance at arrival and you couldn't charge after arriving - it was the combination of these things that resulted in it not being used.

 

My point on scatter wasn't game wide, it was about nerfing units that are causing DS issues, and that maybe scatter could return to problem units.

 

DS as it stands significantly nerfs GK because it was our delivery system to get into CC/RF range. Given that we can only really deal with tough targets in CC, it basically makes those units immune to any form of retaliation from us turn 1 and they might get into CC turn 2. It needs to change or we need new rules. We won't be getting new rules any time soon, so DS changes is the only hope.

[Beams]

Even just adding back the you must all be as close to possible to base contact with the first guy, and no movement/charging after would make deepstrike a lot more palatable

 

 

A smash captain appearing turn 2/3, charging on 3d6 and killing a knight made a lot of players hate deepstrike.

[Waking Dreamer]

We could include things like no charging after DS, but the random scatter / arrival turn would be a deal breaker...reminds me of randomly fishing for select psychic powers for our libbies again. Too much randomness like that ruins strategic / gameplay experience for me.

[Panzer]

Charging after DS is no issue. It's very unlikely to succeed anyway. The only problems with deep strike before the nerf were:

- perfect alpha strike protection (even if you have to drop them in your zone)

- super shooty units like slaanesh plasma terminators or slaanesh obliterators who just come down and obliterate something against armies who don't have 5ppm units to screen everything

- special cases like Captain Smash who can reliably charge and kill something expensive

[Danarc]

Dear brothers, do we are talking again about this?

We sent to GW tons of e-mail, more or less polite. Facts demonstrated that talking about what to suggest to GW to improve GK is useless. If it is only an academic exercise among us it's ok, but I don't trust more GW. 

We had the codex and after that we have been waiting for the FAQ. Nothing in the FAQ, so we have been waiting for the BIG FAQ. Nothing in the first BF so we have been waiting for the second BF. Nothing there and Nothing in the CA 2017. THE SAME has happened in 2018 and CA 2018 didn't solve anything because all army received the same treatment of GK so poor army we were and a poor army we remain. 

 

I'm quite sure that GW doesn't care about GK, so we can send tons of e-mail. Their politics will not change. 

[Panzer]

So you're suggesting to just give up? Not doing anything has literally 0% chance of changing anything, so if sending E-Mails has a 0.001% chance of changing anything it's still infinitely better than not doing anything.

[Danarc]

Actually, I gave up. I will come back IF and WHEN GW will take care of our army, probably with a wide primarisation of GK. 

I understand that you want keep fighting but Einstein definition of insanity is quite good in this situation.

 

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

(I'm not saying you are insane), but since it is useless send e-mail, I would suggest to try something different. What? I don't know. 

 

The only reason I can see in sending others e-mail now it's to offend GW saying the truth, that they aren't able to write balanced rules or something similar, or informing them that we'll give up, but (and I'm sure about this) they don't care about none of them. 

 

So I support your fight but it's quite meaningless. They show us that they don't care (until they want to sell you other models).

[Corvus Fortis]

So you're suggesting to just give up? Not doing anything has literally 0% chance of changing anything, so if sending E-Mails has a 0.001% chance of changing anything it's still infinitely better than not doing anything.

 

 

But if GW is actually don't care, both sending and not sending letters is equally pointless. Thus, doing something is just a waste of time.

 

It was already mentioned somwhere (at that Q&A event, I think) that GW doesn't want to change too many rules in FAQs and rather use points for balance. The only hope left than is a new codex, which means 8.5 or 9 edition, neither of which happening soon.

 

There is obviously no GK players among playtesters or rule-writers, who would like GK to have interesting or strong rules. 

 

Maybe, GK will appear on vigilus and get very strong specialist detachment or cool relic/WT. And GK Imperial Armor is still on the way. These are the only chances to rise from the bottom. 

[Panzer]

Well I'd rather see it the way that GW recognizes the e-mails but fails to address them properly than just them ignoring the e-mails. And if that's the case stopping to send e-mails will send the very wrong message of "everything is alright now".

[HighMarshalAmp]

Might I suggest to focus on the good things as well as providing feedback to GW?

 

We're a Marines army. We used to be more, but we are no longer, just like the Black Templars.

And for a Marines army, we're not in that bad a place.

 

-Nearly unit can Deep Strike. For 1CP, we can Deep Strike a goddamn Dreadnought.

-Nearly every unit can cast Hammerhand or Gate of Infinity on itself.

-Our regular guns are Storm Bolters. It makes a difference against hordes.

-Every regular gun comes with an AP & DD3 Melee weapon.

 

Grey Knights aren't impossible to play. 8pts per model more than a Marine is steep, but now equip a Marine with a Power Sword and a Storm Bolter and you're at +6pts already.

 

They're a flavor of Space Marines. They have the same problems as Space Marines.

They're not reliant on Alpha Strike just because they used to excel at it.

If you can make Marines work, you can make Grey Knights work.

That goes for both the players and GW.

 

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna get my Space Marines + GK Patrol Detachment wiped.

[Panzer]

Might I suggest to focus on the good things as well as providing feedback to GW?

 

We're a Marines army. We used to be more, but we are no longer, just like the Black Templars.

And for a Marines army, we're not in that bad a place.

 

-Nearly unit can Deep Strike. For 1CP, we can Deep Strike a goddamn Dreadnought.

-Nearly every unit can cast Hammerhand or Gate of Infinity on itself.

-Our regular guns are Storm Bolters. It makes a difference against hordes.

-Every regular gun comes with an AP & DD3 Melee weapon.

 

Grey Knights aren't impossible to play. 8pts per model more than a Marine is steep, but now equip a Marine with a Power Sword and a Storm Bolter and you're at +6pts already.

 

They're a flavor of Space Marines. They have the same problems as Space Marines.

They're not reliant on Alpha Strike just because they used to excel at it.

If you can make Marines work, you can make Grey Knights work.

That goes for both the players and GW.

 

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna get my Space Marines + GK Patrol Detachment wiped.

 

Key differences here are that GK don't really have much in regard of ranged pressure except for Razorbacks and flyers while regular Marines have Devastators and also that some of the GK units that are supposed to balance this disadvantage out, mainly Terminators, are still unreasonably overcosted while regular Terminators got a really nice points drop.

But yeah overall I agreew with you.

[HighMarshalAmp]

 

Key differences here are that GK don't really have much in regard of ranged pressure except for Razorbacks and flyers while regular Marines have Devastators and also that some of the GK units that are supposed to balance this disadvantage out, mainly Terminators, are still unreasonably overcosted while regular Terminators got a really nice points drop.

But yeah overall I agreew with you.

 

GWs thinking probably went along the lines of "If they can DS everywhere, they don't need ranged weapons."

I'll go up against Custodes in a week or so and while I feel a lot more comfortable with some GKs and their Smite on my side, I reeeally wish those Psycannonys were Heavy 3 at 36" instead...

I really need to get those Templar Ironclads done to back up my Knights who back up my Marines...