When did the black templars become religious?

[+Chaplain Matthias+]

I'm not talking about which edition. I mean, if we accept both the old fluff and the new fluff, then at some point in the last 10,000 years the Black Templars went from being crusaders of the imperial truth, to crusaders of the imperial cult. When do you think that happened, and how?

 

 

EDIT: Assuming you accept the new fluff

[redmapa]

There's a bit of new lore in the codex that I love, after the Siege of Terra the newly formed Adepta Sororitas went on a Crusade along with the entire Black Templars  to destroy several Eldar worlds and claim them for the Imperium. They destroy several but two High Marshalls die in the process, the Eclesiarch calls down the Crusade but the new High Marshall continues with it and finishes it, cleansing the sector from xenos.

 

I like that bit because its a great spot to have the Chapter get its dogmas a bit dirtied, they are mingling a lot with the Sororitas and since its the whole Chapter that means ALL of high command are part of this mingling which could lead to certain people accepting certain things, then there's the fact that TWO High Marshalls die and in general they arent alone, their bodyguards, command squads and possibly specialists (High ranking chaplains, apothecaries, techmarines) might also have been part of these casualties and a quick replacement of the old guard could result in the Chapter losing its way or having certain new ideas becoming more prominent, with two layers of leadership gone there might be confusion amongst the rank.

 

I would love to see this idea of clashing ideals within the chapter, perhaps certain leaders prefer to keep the Imperial Truth while others see the new Imperial Cult as the real truth, maybe there's a secret civil war amongst the high ranks of the chapter.

[Gederas]

When: During the Horus Heresy. Sigismund kind of made a boo-boo by listening to Euphrati Keeler, who drank from Lorgar's Kool Aid in believing the Emperor was a god.

 

"He eventually met one of the Eisenstein survivors, Euphrati Keeler, a former Imagist, and now zealous adherent of the Lectitio Divinitatus. Her faith in the Emperor would prove to be so absolute that it would provide psychic protection against the powers of daemons summoned from the Warp, and Keeler would go on to become one of the earliest Saints recognised by the Imperial Creed. Keeler informed the First Captain that the Warmaster would eventually strike out for Terra, and when he finally did, Sigismund would be forced to choose where he would make a stand.

 

[...]

 

Chosen as the Emperor's Champion for his fervent faith in the Emperor and his undying devotion to Mankind, those zealous warriors who became Black Templars sought to emulate their former First Captain's heroic example. Seeing the strife that beset the Legiones Astartes during the days of the Second Founding, he determined that a gesture of supreme faith was needed."

Going by that, it seems the Black Templars have been, in the current lore, ALWAYS been crusaders of the imperial cult from their onset.

[+Chaplain Matthias+]

There's a bit of new lore in the codex that I love, after the Siege of Terra the newly formed Adepta Sororitas went on a Crusade along with the entire Black Templars to destroy several Eldar worlds and claim them for the Imperium. They destroy several but two High Marshalls die in the process, the Eclesiarch calls down the Crusade but the new High Marshall continues with it and finishes it, cleansing the sector from xenos.

 

I like that bit because its a great spot to have the Chapter get its dogmas a bit dirtied, they are mingling a lot with the Sororitas and since its the whole Chapter that means ALL of high command are part of this mingling which could lead to certain people accepting certain things, then there's the fact that TWO High Marshalls die and in general they arent alone, their bodyguards, command squads and possibly specialists (High ranking chaplains, apothecaries, techmarines) might also have been part of these casualties and a quick replacement of the old guard could result in the Chapter losing its way or having certain new ideas becoming more prominent, with two layers of leadership gone there might be confusion amongst the rank.

 

I would love to see this idea of clashing ideals within the chapter, perhaps certain leaders prefer to keep the Imperial Truth while others see the new Imperial Cult as the real truth, maybe there's a secret civil war amongst the high ranks of the chapter.

Siege of Terra? Or the terran crusade during the age of apotasy? Either way that's a long time. But I do like your view that it was around the time of the founding of the sororitas because of how mixed up with them the Black Templars we're, and still are.

[+Chaplain Matthias+]

When: During the Horus Heresy. Sigismund kind of made a boo-boo by listening to Euphrati Keeler, who drank from Lorgar's Kool Aid in believing the Emperor was a god.

 

"He eventually met one of the Eisenstein survivors, Euphrati Keeler, a former Imagist, and now zealous adherent of the Lectitio Divinitatus. Her faith in the Emperor would prove to be so absolute that it would provide psychic protection against the powers of daemons summoned from the Warp, and Keeler would go on to become one of the earliest Saints recognised by the Imperial Creed. Keeler informed the First Captain that the Warmaster would eventually strike out for Terra, and when he finally did, Sigismund would be forced to choose where he would make a stand.

 

[...]

 

Chosen as the Emperor's Champion for his fervent faith in the Emperor and his undying devotion to Mankind, those zealous warriors who became Black Templars sought to emulate their former First Captain's heroic example. Seeing the strife that beset the Legiones Astartes during the days of the Second Founding, he determined that a gesture of supreme faith was needed."

 

Going by that, it seems the Black Templars have been, in the current lore, ALWAYS been crusaders of the imperial cult from their onset.

Yeah I agree that the current fluff seems to say that they were always crusaders of the Imperial cult. I'm just trying to find a way to reconcile the two versions in my head because I like them both. I have a very old BT Marine in mk3 armor in my deathwatch kill team, and I'm trying to figure out if it's plausible that he was around before the change in ideology. But I think the most generous estimates would make him 5000 years old. Not plausible unfortunately. Ah well

[Kelborn]

He could still adhere to the old lore.

I mean, the BTs are spread across the Imperium and fight separately on their own that there's plenty of room to have an old lore crusade force.

 

Just like I'm still convinced that there are thousands of BTs instead of "just" 1k but that's another story. ;)

[Marshal Rohr]

Sigismund became a believer after an encounter with Keeler. The rest is yet to be told.

[Closet Skeleton]

I prefer the during the Age of Apostasy option since I'm not a Black Library novel reader. The idea that they've gone back on forth a few times over 10,000 years also makes a little bit of sense.

 

The Imperium itelf took about 1500 years to become fully religious if you look carefully at the timeline and was then completely reformed religiously after the Age of Apostasy. So 10,000 years of Imperial Cult complaint BT is actually very unlikely.

 

Just like I'm still convinced that there are thousands of BTs instead of "just" 1k but that's another story.

 

No source has ever claimed that there were just 1000 Black Templars. Not even 2nd ed when we were a Codex Chapter (codex chapters were bigger in 2nd ed since the 1000 was regarded as more of a minimum value).

[Honda]

This is a good question, very thought provoking.

 

I have sometimes wondered if a kernel of that faith began with seeing Sigismund's stand  at the Siege of Terra (SoT), but certainly it would have  grown as visions were given to the new Emperor's Champions.

 

Certainly, Sigismund's exposure to Keeler would have influenced his opinion, whether or not he began "preaching" is another thing. After all, "I gots dat ol' time religion" is  what started the whole HH mess in the first place. Starting another "branch" in the still highly secular Imperium post SoT might have been a touchy subject.

 

So it would seem the Scouring would be the earliest possible, but we might also need to factor in the loss of Dorn as a driving force to seek or feel the need for a "guiding" influence.

 

Cheers,

[Brother Tyler]

Touching briefly on the size of the Chapter - the lore has mentioned that at times the size of the Chapter is (much) larger than a standard Chapter, potentially up to several thousand. At times, though, the Chapter has been reduced to smaller than normal size due to attrition. We've never had an accurate count, and it's likely that there isn't an "on paper" full size for the Chapter because it doesn't follow a normal construct - growing as much as possible when it can, but shrinking due to occupational hazards.

 

Getting back on topic - we simply don't know when the Chapter "became religious." As has been said, the seed was planted during the Horus Heresy when Sigismund was exposed to Keeler. How much he implemented within the larger Chapter after the 2nd Founding and before his death is unknown.

 

My pesonal belief is that the Chapter didn't just "become" religious. They evolved in that direction. Sigismund's personal beliefs were definitely a force in shaping that, so the foundation was there from the beginning. While the battle-brothers that formed the nascent Black Templars Chapters were the most fervent of Sigismund's brothers and likely to be open to his beliefs, there was probably some level of the Imperial Truth followed by at least some of the battle-brothers. Consider also that exposure to the full horrors of Chaos when the traitors assaulted Terra may have pushed some of the battle-brothers into a frame of mind where they looked to the Emperor as more than a secular ruler, more than "just" the ultimate expression of Mankind. With Sigismund's martyrdom, the warrior cult of the Chapter likely increased in its religiosity (Mal-ism, probably not a real word ). Consider that the Chapter has had the Emperor's Champion since the Horus Heresy, with Sigismund being the first to serve in that vaunted role. Any organization that believes that the Emperor personally invests one of their own with a portion of his power has some level of religion in its blood. At the very latest (in my opinion), the Age of Apostasy would have been the catalyst for full conversion, if the Black Templars weren't there already.

 

+EDIT+ (since Honda posted while I was composing my essay ;) )

 

I haven't finished Black Legion yet and I haven't read the Beast series. How is the Black Templars Chapter described in those books (in terms of its warrior cult/religion)?

[The Spanish Inquisitor]

[...] but we might also need to factor in the loss of Dorn as a driving force to seek or feel the need for a "guiding" influence.

 

This.

But I don't think Sigismund became religious. He considered himself a traitor to Dorn when he followed the visions of keeler (a filthy psyker, or a saint depending of your opinion) instead of the orders of his primarch. 

 

It would be interesting if ADB wrote a book about this change with the BT. 

[Kontakt]

In the beast arises books, 1500 years after the heresy, the beliefs of the templars are not common knowledge outside the astartes, and even then, almost no astartes know. Great feats are done in the emperor's name, feats which defy all logic.  Their fervor, and its effectiveness, are surprising to even the death guard, who are critical of their adoption of such beliefs. I have not finished the series yet, but the other sons of Dorn seem to ignore the Templar's beliefs for the sake of harmony.

 

In regards to Keeler, she comes to believe in the Emperor's divinity while ignorant of Lorgar's "kool-aid." Two different viewpoints with the same conclusion. To me, it feels like the horus heresy books are trying very hard to convince us that the imperial truth is in fact, a lie. The emperor's divinity seems more a badly kept secret than an impossibility.

[Canadian_F_H]

Spoilers from black legion...

 

 

When abaddon and the black legion finally break into real space they find a vast fleet arrayed against them. "...we aren't the only black legion" says abaddon.

 

The black legion has over 100,000 marines as this time and they said the black templars fleet was almost the same size (and presumably the fleet having a full complement of marines, the BT COULD have had over 100,000 as well. Conjecture permitted by the phrasing in the book)

 

Real space time this is roughly 1000 years after the heresy.

 

Earlier in the book several BL find a BT strike cruiser crashed in the EOT on the planet the SoH had first fled to after the scouring. They find all the gothic ornamentation we expect of 40k. They find what to them is normal wargear given places of honor and reverence (they don't know 1k years have passed). They find a dead BT and eat his brain. They see visions they don't understand. The BT fighting and dying. They feel anger they have never felt before and hear our battle cry. "no pity! no remorse! no fear!"

 

Later when Abby confronts Sigismund it's a very interesting exchange of words and blows. But there is absolutely NOTHING in the exchange about religion that I recall.

 

 

Regarding the phrase "faith in the emperor"

 

One can have "faith" in a person, an idea, a construct of society, or even principles of nature.

 

One can have faith in their country. Faith in their system of government. Faith in their leader. Faith in the structural integrity of their ship.

 

Personally. to my eyes it's clear the intention of the 4th Ed BT codex was to make Crusades conceptually equivalent to chapters in the vanilla codex, or to successors in DA and BA.

 

Ie, create your own "chapter/crusade" they do what they do. And like they encourage you "there are a 1000 chapters and we have described but a few" they tell us, there are many Crusades spread out across the galaxy that operate independently. As small as a squad and sometimes as large as a whole chapter. Then allude to an inquisitor trying to count marines and arriving at 6600.

 

So for me... Each crusade may have a more secular or more religious leaning in their "faith" in the emperor and his vision of mankind's place in the galaxy.

[Ciler]

I'll go with Tyler's view. BTs didn't just "become" religious, I expect they evolved toward it from the standard imperial truth via the "seed" of faith implanted by Sigismund's interaction with Keeler.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

They were uber religious in The Beast Arises, and get seriously put back in their box at one stage. The fervour has some cool effects though on an Ork Psyker. There's a bit with a Marshal dreadnought and his crusade essentially praying away psychic attacks.

[Cognative]

They were uber religious in The Beast Arises, and get seriously put back in their box at one stage. The fervour has some cool effects though on an Ork Psyker. There's a bit with a Marshal dreadnought and his crusade essentially praying away psychic attacks.

Abhor the Witch, Deny the Witch!

 

And that Marshal Dreadnought was seriously baller. And insane.

[Canadian_F_H]

They were uber religious in The Beast Arises, and get seriously put back in their box at one stage. The fervour has some cool effects though on an Ork Psyker. There's a bit with a Marshal dreadnought and his crusade essentially praying away psychic attacks.

When is "the beast arrizes" set?

[Gederas]

They were uber religious in The Beast Arises, and get seriously put back in their box at one stage. The fervour has some cool effects though on an Ork Psyker. There's a bit with a Marshal dreadnought and his crusade essentially praying away psychic attacks.

When is "the beast arrizes" set?

544-546.M32

 

So about 1500 years after the Siege of Terra and the Horus Heresy.

[Canadian_F_H]

Thanks. And that would also be about 500 years after the opening engagement of the 1st black crusade from "black legion"

 

So with the most recent fluff thst puts the full on "religiosity" of the BT showing up between 31,000 and 31,500

[Medjugorje]

I'm not talking about which edition. I mean, if we accept both the old fluff and the new fluff, then at some point in the last 10,000 years the Black Templars went from being crusaders of the imperial truth, to crusaders of the imperial cult. When do you think that happened, and how?

 

 

EDIT: Assuming you accept the new fluff

It begins with Sigismund himself. If you read HH its very clear on my mind. The question is how did Sigismund explain that to his men ( would be nice to read that in a Black Library book)

[Medjugorje]

 

[...] but we might also need to factor in the loss of Dorn as a driving force to seek or feel the need for a "guiding" influence.

 

This.

But I don't think Sigismund became religious. He considered himself a traitor to Dorn when he followed the visions of keeler (a filthy psyker, or a saint depending of your opinion) instead of the orders of his primarch. 

 

It would be interesting if ADB wrote a book about this change with the BT. 

 

I wont expect ADB for that. I tink Guy Haley or Graham McN. would write that.

[Son of Cathal]

I don't believe the Black Templars are really a chapter of faith in a god Emperor. I do believe they are religious though, holding the Imperial Truth, the Emperor's true vision of the Imperium as the basis of their devotion. Their commitment to the Eternal Crusade, the extinguishing of mutants, witches and Xenos are simply a zealous extension of that devotion. From the outside, I can understand how their fervour and zealotry has been interpreted to a religious devotion to a god Emperor.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Nah, it's stated to be much, much more explicit than that. You may not wish it to be, your Crusade may not be. But the fluff is definite. Big E = deity.

[Terrified Templar]

I don't believe the Black Templars are really a chapter of faith in a god Emperor. I do believe they are religious though, holding the Imperial Truth, the Emperor's true vision of the Imperium as the basis of their devotion. Their commitment to the Eternal Crusade, the extinguishing of mutants, witches and Xenos are simply a zealous extension of that devotion. From the outside, I can understand how their fervour and zealotry has been interpreted to a religious devotion to a god Emperor.

 

This was how it was before the fluff abomination that was the 6th edition Space Marine Codex came along. It was a cool image and, to me at least, was a much more powerful demonstration  of their devotion to the Emperor to follow the Imperial Truth to the letter and to be the only chapter that strives to keep alive the Great Crusade instead of "yeah he is a god now even though he said he wasn't but we're true followers of the Emperor which means we're ignoring what he said" because that makes sense. 

 

Also yes I know that there is new fluff out there that has explained this change but boil it down and that is basically what they have done. 

 

Also to add to the topic at hand I would imagine that it began to take hold after the founding of the Black Templars as they were formed from the most zealous of the Imperial Fists which would have included many members of the 1st Company since they would have been have likely been influenced by Sigismund and his example and would likely have had a strong influence on those who had served directly under Sigismund, without Dorn as their direct leader I imagine they would be more open to follow Sigismund's example which would have been reinforced by his previous position has the Emperor's Champion which, I admit, does seem to be an endorsement of sorts  of Sigismund's beliefs from the Emperor. 

[Elzender]

My bad, I did not remember somebody already explained the meeting of Sigismund and Keeler. Please ignore this post.