2k Deathwatch and characters

[vigitant]

So, my new list just got its first game in, and against arguably my worst matchup.  Went against a Castellan and 2 shooty knights, with a helliger.

My list:

 

DW Battalion:

 

HQ:  Watchmaster

         Jump Libby with Might of Heroes and a toolkit power.  Staff and SB.  Beacon Angelis

Troops:  3 units of: 1 Sgt, CS/SB . 1 vet CS/SB . 3 vets SS/SB . 2 Terminators PS/SB . 1 Vanguard vet 2pistol

 

Space Wolves SCD:  Njall Nopecaller with wolf spirits, hurricane, and tempest

          2 Jump Rune Priests, one as warlord with +attacks, Armor of Russ.  Other with 5++.  both with wolf spirits and living lightning

          1 Jump Wolf Priest with wulfen stone

          Murderfang

 

Assasinorum: 1 culexus, 1 eversor, 1 callidus, 2 vindicare

 

*this is using current, pre-CA prices*

 

I lost the matchup, but i felt good with where the list is at, given its such a hard matchup for the list.  
He barely killed my troops turn 2, and i had some pretty bad shield rolls.  He went first as well.  Had i gotten first turn or my troops held on even a little into turn 3, i think i coulda fought it out.  
Had his lost not been all in on knights, i think i woulda sweeped the game as well.  this troop build is disgustingly resilient.  and all the characters are pretty potent.
I was pleasantly surprised by the amount of hate my psykers could throw downrange.  i did about 12 MW in the psychic phase turn 1, and another 8 turn 2.  
The vindicares...  well, i expected them to contribute nothing vs knights, but they got a good 8-10 MW's off on the knights across the game.  All in all not bad.

I'm excited to try the list against something a little less a hard counter.  I think its going to eat infantry pretty easily, and im a little bit more comfortable vs lists with heavier tanks after seeing smite spam in action.

Also, this list got quite a lot of points from CA, so I'm going to need to rework it a bit.  might try to throw in a smash captain for a little more AT, and I'll definitely be putting Shields on all my vets now.

[Prot]

I just moved this over from lists. It's not really a list request and it's good for conversation about Deathwatch facing off (as you say) against a pretty brutal match up.

 

I'd love to see a rematch with point adjustments. 

 

I'm a sucker for Termies and tried using the melta fist quite a few times. I wonder if the melta/fist as a combo get the fist reduction? Does it make them worthwile? 

[mjrwaud]

I just moved this over from lists. It's not really a list request and it's good for conversation about Deathwatch facing off (as you say) against a pretty brutal match up.

 

I'd love to see a rematch with point adjustments. 

 

I'm a sucker for Termies and tried using the melta fist quite a few times. I wonder if the melta/fist as a combo get the fist reduction? Does it make them worthwile? 

 

I'm also a huge fan of terminators and really hope I can get more use out of them with the reductions. As far as the melta-fist combo they've gone down a bit... time will tell if it's enough.

 

Terminator + Melta + Powerfist + Stormbolter

Pre-CA2018 = 31+17+12+4 = 64

Post-CA2018 = 23+14+9+4 = 50

[Prot]

Wow that is actually considerable. I may have to take another crack at that unit.

[BrotherAetherick]

How do you use your vindicares. Do you set them up on the board or deep strike them to snipe key characters. Do you find they actually make their points back (although they are 10 cheaper in CA 2018)

 

I've always wanted to use them but having heavy 1 always made me wary. Also I wish his rifle wounded like hellfire, not being to snipe monsters or bikers is pretty lame.

[vigitant]

How do you use your vindicares. Do you set them up on the board or deep strike them to snipe key characters. Do you find they actually make their points back (although they are 10 cheaper in CA 2018)

 

I've always wanted to use them but having heavy 1 always made me wary. Also I wish his rifle wounded like hellfire, not being to snipe monsters or bikers is pretty lame.

For this match, deep striking woulda been pointless.  In the past, I tend to try to find him a high perch with good views of the board/objectives.  With the current deep strike rules, i cant imagine deep strike beating out a turn of shooting.

[BrotherAetherick]

Might finally try the vindicares. Character spam is still the name of the game for space marines and it got even better with super durable veterans.

 

Something I just thought of is adding black shields to vet squads when playing characters (especially space wolves with 6" HI). With the fly nerf, I found it was harder to heroically intervene past my own screening models because I can't fit through my coherency gaps. But with vets being able to HI, you can shuffle them around first to make space for your chars to get within 1".

 

With space wolves 6" HI, and if you position your chars well enough, there won't be many spots where opponents can charge your vets without also being smashed by some space wolves. Bonus points if the armor of russ gets into combat and forces the chargers to fight last.

 

Also with Space wolves behind your vets, the worry of an opponent forcing your black shield vets into combat with scary combat units is lessened if you make some space with your vet's HI move.

[vigitant]

Got a scheduled game with C:SM tomorrow.  It'll be a bit of a reverse from the knights.  Should be a super favorable matchup, as he normally prefers primaris heavy lists.  Theres a chance he might play his dreadnought list, but we'll see.  That'll be a bit harder, but if the list had enough dakka, smites, and attacks to drop almost 2 knights, T7 dreads shouldnt pose too much of a problem.

[BrotherAetherick]

Do you generally ball up the characters for the living lightning strat and reroll auras and just screen with vets?

 

Have you considered adding a cheap wolf guard battle leader with jump pack and TH/SS for the reroll 1's?

 

With the points drops in CA you may be able to fit him in.

[Prot]

Got a scheduled game with C:SM tomorrow.  It'll be a bit of a reverse from the knights.  Should be a super favorable matchup, as he normally prefers primaris heavy lists.  Theres a chance he might play his dreadnought list, but we'll see.  That'll be a bit harder, but if the list had enough dakka, smites, and attacks to drop almost 2 knights, T7 dreads shouldnt pose too much of a problem.

 

I'm not trying to set this up for failure, but I will tell you I play a lot of Primaris with my Ultra's and I find when I'm playing against 'vanilla marines' my Deathwatch eat them up. Add to the fact that CA just helped Deathwatch fare more than most Primaris builds and you will probably chew him up pretty bad... unless he has a lot of armour which as we know makes for a difficult DW match up.

[vigitant]

Do you generally ball up the characters for the living lightning strat and reroll auras and just screen with vets?

 

Have you considered adding a cheap wolf guard battle leader with jump pack and TH/SS for the reroll 1's?

 

With the points drops in CA you may be able to fit him in.

 

 

the knights game was weird.  usually, with lists like these i use the troops to zone out areas and follow up with characters.  the goal is to strike forward and annihilate a piece of the enemy army in a way that leaves the rest of the enemy closer to my troops.

and the list always has the option to either tank on objectives for the win, or just smite spam some more elite armies to death from behind screen.

 

 

I'm not trying to set this up for failure, but I will tell you I play a lot of Primaris with my Ultra's and I find when I'm playing against 'vanilla marines' my Deathwatch eat them up. Add to the fact that CA just helped Deathwatch fare more than most Primaris builds and you will probably chew him up pretty bad... unless he has a lot of armour which as we know makes for a difficult DW match up.

 

 

I suspect my smite spam is going to go a good ways towards messing up SM armor lists, especially since they'll struggle to get past all the shields, especially with CA changes.

[vigitant]

my friday matchup wasnt able to make it.  Dont know when my next game will be(probably after the holidays), but I have made a few list tweaks post-CA.

all 3 troops are now: sgt [sS/SB], 4x veterans [sS/SB], 3 terminators [sB/PS]

        the vanguard was enabling something that this list just doesnt need.  upping to 5 SS and 3 termies makes them disturbingly tanky, and isn't that expensive with CA.  I don't think in        general that it's worth bring chainswords on vets anymore.  SS are just so cheap now.

Also was able to add a TH/SS wolf guard battle leader with a jump pack to the SW detachment.  Gives me another melee AT as well as adding efficiency to my whole pack.

I feel like these changes move me from "Possible, but a longshot-need luck" to "play well and dont roll badly and you've got the game" vs the all-knight matchup.  Needs more testing, but its a fine line with a character list.  if murderfang and/or the battle leader get into melee, i likely win the matchup.


To anyone looking to play/make a character deathstar like this:

It is crazy fun to play. 

You have to be super technical with your positioning and movement.  Every matchup plays a little different, and its great to have this deep toolkit to pick apart your opponent's army, but you do need to understand your opponents list as well as your own.  Played well, there arent many matchups that cant be won, since you have so many ways to limit your opponents choices. 

the 3lists i cant really win against are chaos leviathan spam, necron C'tan/C'tan box spam, and that tau suit spam.  theres just no way to really deal with mass non-psyker mortal wounds.  The necrons might be beatable if i get first turn, if they underestimate the sheer murder of murderfang and a might of heroes captain.  still a tough game, though.  

 

Other concepts/detachments im toying with currently:
taking 50-60 intercessors to shield characters.  100 shots, 100 wounds.  i think its a little less strong than the current list, but thats just a lot of wounds to chew on.

Sisters of battle:  with CA, they have some great things for the list.
45pt troops makes a juicy battallion.  Celestine, 2 gemini, and a murder-cannoness fit rather well with the list. Would likely slot in where the assassins are.  Trades consistency for the assassin toolkit.

Prot, sorry, missed your earlier post somehow.

I'm a sucker for Termies and tried using the melta fist quite a few times. I wonder if the melta/fist as a combo get the fist reduction? Does it make them worthwile? 

 

 

I still feel like they're going to struggle still. d3 damage on 2 attacks hitting on 4's is still not great.  melta range is still not great, though melta damage at close range is still sexy.  
Biggest problem is the platform is still comparatively expensive compared to the rest of the kill team, and prohibits using them to soak ap- weapons.

In general, the fist still lacks efficiency and throughput, and is pretty crappy still.  The melta is not as bad as far as efficiency goes, and definitely has throughput.  It's not optimal, but like anything with throughput, can be made to work.

 

 

Edit: 

Also wanted to add the following:

 

Why Deathwatch?

 

This is a pretty soupy list, and I wanted to mention why I still feel the core of the list is the Deathwatch.
The biggest reason is that I dont really feel any current imperium army can enable this concept better.  Deathwatch troops do things that no other can do without also paying for T5 bodies, 2+/3++, badass melee and shooting, etc.  Deathwatch get to only pay for the defensive capabilites on each model, and this drastically increases their value defensively.  SIA storm bolters provide super efficient offensive punch as well.  Deathwatch really are the skeleton on which this army is built.

Secondly, for all that I've replaced parts of the army with more effiective options from other codexes, the list concept still works with monocodex, and i think it would be super effective.
 

[BrotherAetherick]

Chaos Leviathan and Deredeo spam is brutal. I have no idea how GW thought dropping butcher cannon arrays 20 points was a good idea. Probably the same person who wanted to drop Storm Shields to 2 lol.

 

I've been trying 1-2 bikes in the kill teams as ablative wounds. They are the first to die to smites that get through and other MW. 12.5 points per mortal wound instead of losing a vet (20 points) or termi (15.5 points)

How often do you use the space wolves stratagems? I've been debating whether to keep my character spam detachment pure Space wolves or Adeptus Astartes. I think I would miss 6 inch HI more than the strats to be honest, as I really only miss only in death.

 

Other space marine chars that seem to do lots of work without their chapter tactic (because the detachment is souped):

 

Draigo -  a beast at 180 now, str 8 ap 4 flat 3 with hammerhand and gate seems good. 2 denies as well.

Voldus - like above but cheaper.

Sammael in sableclaw - fast dakka and pretty good in combat as well

Bjorn - T8 dread with 5+++, gives a CP, rerolls 1's (for space wolves) and all wounds is pretty strong, AP-4 means knights get no save, slightly cheaper in CA if you take plasma.

Emperor's Champion

Sgt Chronus in a whirlwind - super cheap BS2 LOS ignoring firepower. can screen your chars lategame by zooming past all of them when most heavy enemy firepower assets are diminished.

Dark Angels Libby - additional -1 to hit power that stacks with tempest wrath.

 

Could even drop the assassins and make a space marines codex battalion to get only in death for all adeptus astartes chars (kinda like your sisters idea)

 

Ultramarines libby (adept of the codex)

Chronus in whirlwind or emperor's champ

 

scouts x 3 (black templars)

 

This also gets you "abhor the witch" for some psychic defense lost from the culexis.

 

The Watchmaster, HQ 2, triple vet storm shield spam core has become my new favourite battalion hands down though.

[vigitant]

How often do you use the space wolves stratagems? I've been debating whether to keep my character spam detachment pure Space wolves or Adeptus Astartes. I think I would miss 6 inch HI more than the strats to be honest, as I really only miss only in death.

 

 

Armour of Russ solves a lot of problems, and the warlord trait and wulfen stone are pretty sweet.  the detachment as a whole is pretty efficient with overlapping buffs, and the rune priests are hardcore.  6" HI and a 2+ hammer cpt are always good, too.  Most of my CP seems to go for rerolls and a key fight again.

[BrotherAetherick]

Played a new CA mission (the one with 5 objs and you roll which ones active per round) with a list like this:

 

watchmaster w/tome of ectoclades

foot libby (MoH and psychic fortress)

 

Vets (black shield, sergeant and 3 vets SB/SS, vanguard pistol/SS, 2x bikers, 2x termi SB/Maul)

Vets (black shield, sergeant and 3 vets SB/SS, vanguard pistol/SS, 2x bikers, 2x termi SB/Maul)

Vets (7 combi plasma/SS, Vanguard pistol/SS, 2x termi SB/Maul)

 

Bjorn w/twin las

Njal

Rune Priest with jump pack - Warlord +attack trait, Armour of Russ

Wolf Guard Battle Leader w/ Jump pack, SS, TH

Wolf Priest w/ Jump Pack

 

Culexis

Culexis

Vindicare

Vindicare

 

I played against my buddies' Deathguard Daemon soup with something like

 

DG DP with arch contaminator and plate

chaos lord with some random stuff

2x leviathans, one with dual butchers and 1 with butcher + claw

min squad cultists

 

CSM sorc with death hex and prescience

3x bloat drones

 

Tzeentch DP with impossible robe

poxbringer

3x nurgling

 

The list felt pretty strong even though I ended up getting tabled. I made a lot of mistakes (first time using so many characters and didn't screen them well enough against things that could fly (advancing bloat drones sniped my warlord, etc)

 

Also DG has some pretty good answers against character balls with auto exploding vehicles, especially those damn hellforged units doing d6 to psykers.

 

On turn 1 I managed to kill 2 drones with bjorn, the smash LT, and my warlord, and then screen the front with vets also charging in. but the auto explode and 4+ explode did 2 wounds to all my chars. Then on his turn he ran a DP near me and nurgles rot killed my LT and wolf priest (definitely should have kept him back, he took mortals for no reason). The game was sealed when he suicided a 2 wound shooty levi into my bjorn and even though I used my normal CC attack profile he managed to fail two 2+ armour saves and auto exploded killing the rest of my chars.

 

Some takeaways:

 

Bikers in vet squads - They were pretty good on the first turn. You can get a lot of extra movement for charges with the 14 inch move. I think this only really works well with 2 in the unit. Between the long bases of the bikes and the VV you can string the bikes to weird angles so when you declare charges they can go tie things up. Otherwise they just took mortal wounds and died (which is what I primarily wanted them for)

 

VV - I don't think I ever fell back and shot. Still, he's cheaper than a loaded out veteran so might still be useful to have the ability to do so. Also the above for keeping coherency with the bikes.

 

Terminators - super solid in tanking all those nasty Ap 0 or Ap-1 1 dmg shots. At least 2 in a squad feels good.

 

Combi Plasma Team - was.. ok. I Deep struck them (probably a mistake) and did 10 wounds to a levi with the +1 to wound strat (slightly below average) and then they got annihilated by butchers the next turn. If I run them again I definitely need a watch captain with jump pack to come in with them. With just a watchmaster for rerolls it's way too obvious where they will go and screen them out of good targets.

 

DW Libby - MoH is just so good on bjorn and smash captains. second power was meh.

 

Bjorn - I had extra points so I took the lascannon but I normally take the cheapest loadout which is heavy plasma - making him 40 points more than murderfang. Whether T8, AP-4, reroll 1's, 1 CP, and 5+++ is worth 40 points is debatable, but I definitely think hes pretty solid

 

Njal - I was wary of the 40 point upgrade over a base rune priest but the +1 to cast and reroll deny came in handy in this game. Also knowing 3 powers was useful.

 

Warlord - armour of russ is good. Although he died quickly for me before he could do much.

Battle Leader - reroll 1's to wound is awesome

Wolf Priest - The healing would have been clutch if I positioned him better.

 

Culexis - Solid as always, although DG has so many flamers to take care of him (also hellflamers are 2 dmg for some reason), still super annoying tho.

Vindicare - actually did way better than I imagined. Finishing off chars, and scoring objectives every turn is awesome. They are no slouches against chaff in combat too.

[vigitant]

Awesome, Aetherick! 
I'd suggest getting in the 3rd rune priest, the d6 living lightning strat is insane.
Character lists take some getting used to.  But your opponents have to get used to them, too, which helps.


Made a pretty big edit to my list after looking more in depth at strats.  I'll be posting more after.

Short version:  Lion and the wolf is crazy.  Switching out the assassins for Dark Angels battallion.

[BrotherAetherick]

Awesome, Aetherick! 

I'd suggest getting in the 3rd rune priest, the d6 living lightning strat is insane.

Character lists take some getting used to.  But your opponents have to get used to them, too, which helps.

 

 

Made a pretty big edit to my list after looking more in depth at strats.  I'll be posting more after.

 

Short version:  Lion and the wolf is crazy.  Switching out the assassins for Dark Angels battallion.

 

Can you keep using lion and the wolf on the same characters as long as they dont die? lol.

[vigitant]

 

Can you keep using lion and the wolf on the same characters as long as they dont die? lol.

 

 

nope.  but getting a DA 5 attacks with a S10 hammer hitting on 2's/reroll 1's is super.  Or in matchups where i take mind wipe, getting +1 LD on the libby

getting yet another attack on the rune priest or WGBL is stupid good.  12 attacks on the rune priest before fight again for 3cp

 

 

Also, List:

DW battalion:

Watch master

Jump libby SB/staff, beacon

 

3x

sgt(SB/SS) 5xvet(S/SS) 2xterm(SB/PS)

 

DA Battalion:

Jump libby SB/staff

Jump Master TH/SS

 

3x

MSU scouts bolters

 

SW SCD:

Njall

RP SB/axe, hood, Warlord: Wulfen, Armour of russ

RP SB/axe, hood, rune armour

Wolf priest, SB, JP, Wulfen stone

WGBL, JP, TH/SS

 

Murderfang

 

11 cp after strats(2 for relics, 1 for L&W)

 

New lists has lots of options.  can double up on -1's.  can throw a LOT of mortals out every turn, with plenty of CP to fuel it.  Scouts help screen characters.

Can spend more cp for DA relics, or to add super clavis.

the extra hammer is going to be pretty useful, too.

 

Should get a game in this evening.  I'll try to get a batrep in this weekend.

Edit: No game.  Hopefully I'll get one in this friday.

[BrotherAetherick]

Oh that's right, it's once per battle, didn't notice that.

 

Living Lightning strat is insane. Chained from a 3 man fire warrior squad into a wounded fireblade into an ethereal, into a 2 man drone squad, and then into a riptide.

 

Still undecided what type of rune priests I like the most.

 

Njal - seems worth the 40 point premium for the extra power known, extra deny, 2+, runic armour, extra wound, +1 to cast, free reroll for deny.

RP on bike - hate how he only has 1 tempestas power, but 125 points gives you frost axe, 2 storm bolters, 14 inch move, 6 inch auto advance, +1 T, +1 wound. I like to give this guy armour of russ to keep it alive longer. I normally cast fury of the wolf spirits on this guy (only power known).

RP w/JP - less survivable than the bike but knows 2 powers.

naked RP - cheapest just to unlock living lightning strat.

Primaris RP - I think if you're just taking foot RP the 5 point premium (10 if you include mandatory psychic hood) is worth the wound and attack, being forced into frost sword kind of sucks though.

[Prot]

So where are the mortal wounds coming from? Smite?

[BrotherAetherick]

So where are the mortal wounds coming from? Smite?

 

3x rune priest (njal), DW libby, other souped libby.

 

5 attempts at smite, although I wouldn't attempt all 5 normally. You can sequence Njal at the third or fourth attempt for the +1 to make his smite on a 6 or 7.

 

Then you have living lightning for d6 with the stratagem.

 

I normally only buff with my DW libby, so it goes RP1 Smite, RP2 smite, Soup Libby Smite, Njal Smite, living lightning when there's an opportune bounce.

[vigitant]

So where are the mortal wounds coming from? Smite?

 

As Aetherick said, smites, Living lightning.  also a mortal from one of the DA powers.

 

Then, strat d3 mortal vs vehicles from watchmaster in shooting, and strat for d3 mortal melee.  relic potentially for an additional d3 mortal in melee.

 

Played a game vs a very nasty nurgle list with mortarion and a chaos gallant.  they got 1st turn, so i lost, but it was still a close game.  DW vets with termies still beat super buffed nurglings on objectives.

putting the gallant on -3 to hit 2 turns in a row was hilarious, though the third turn i failed all but 2 smites in the psychic phase, which hurt a lot and sealed the nurgle victory.

[Prot]

I think it's the Wolves part of the list I really don't know well. That's one army I never see over here anymore. They used to be everywhere and now they're a rarity. I've seen the -1 thing in action but I wasn't sure really what living lightning does.

 

Mortarion is actually quite easy for Deathwatch (compared to other marines) to deal with, but Knights... ouch. Just such a pain to deal with T8, high wounds. That special ammo round one is good for D3, and I think I use one squad with an IHB just for the D3 mortal wound strat. Vehicles are nasty. Basically that's what drove me to the Ven Dread Las/Missile "Wisdom" bubble I often use. Without going outside the codex, I couldn't find a real solution. If Wolves can do that for you, that's awesome.

 

I have to be honest I've seen Hammer/Shields in recent games and they are a touch tempting (getting off topic) but I still play with the odd melta/fist Termie too. Knights are just a big problem for me.

[vigitant]

Mortarion is actually quite easy for Deathwatch (compared to other marines) to deal with, but Knights... ouch. Just such a pain to deal with T8, high wounds. That special ammo round one is good for D3, and I think I use one squad with an IHB just for the D3 mortal wound strat. Vehicles are nasty. Basically that's what drove me to the Ven Dread Las/Missile "Wisdom" bubble I often use. Without going outside the codex, I couldn't find a real solution. If Wolves can do that for you, that's awesome.

 

I have to be honest I've seen Hammer/Shields in recent games and they are a touch tempting (getting off topic) but I still play with the odd melta/fist Termie too. Knights are just a big problem for me.

 

Mortarion is super scary in a list that can deliver him T1, if they get first turn.  He throws out aoe mortals and super murders stuff, and explodes if you kill him. 

Warp Time and buffs get that first turn delivery and it hurts.

 

As for dealing with knights, i've found we have solid melee options, but it requires positioning and finesse.

A smash captain with MoH can put the pain on a knight.  Same for a chaplain dread. 

My problem with vendreads, at least competitively, is that the lists they work well against can just remove them from the board quickly, and will.  ~40 pts more for character rule and melee power is worth it for me.

Melta part of the melta fist is great, but d3 damage always feel lackluster to me compared to flat 3 hammers.  A smash captain with combimelta/hammer can put in a lot of work, with 7" more movement to help get around screen.  The termie has to deep strike to get value, and can be vulnerable to kiting by moderately quick units.

 

Honestly, aside from the invaluable -1 to hit stacking, the best thing the wolves bring vs knights is the Armour of Russ.

Hammers can gang up on knights for pretty devastating effect, but 2pt interrupt and smashy feet can ruin that plan.  Forcing the knight to only fight after everything else has is brutal.

[OgreOnAStick]

Fairly certain that you may only take relics from your warlord's keyword pool. Unless you mean to acquire relics from other lists with the relic stratagem, which I'm not sure is kosher by RaI or RaW.

 

Also, you're underselling what Bjorn gets compared to Murderfang. The ranged heavy weapon makes him far more likely to earn back his points while trundling towards the enemy, T8 and 5+ FnP makes him harder to wound by one degree by S7 and S8 weapons (plasma/melta/krak missiles, thunder hammers) and +1 CP doubles the point per CP value of non-brigade/battalion detachments or in this case, negates the cost of L&W. He is also HQ so can be taken as a compulsory choice in most detachments, thus freeing points for other things. Rerolls, Trueclaw's AP and smoke launchers are just gravy. The only bad sides to him are his 3+ save and the unreliability of Trueclaw's d6 damage profile.

 

Oh and don't forget that SW characters get 6" Heroic intervention in pure detachments, it allows you to keep the unit tied down in melee if the even if they fall back assuming they have movement value of 6" or less, resulting in free movement for you. It can also be used to punish failed charges, especially if the armour of russ caddy is also within HI range.

 

As for terminators, personally, I tend to go full dakkanator (meltafist and cyclone) on them when they're embedded to veteran units. Although at times the meltafist does feel superfluous.