Imperium Secundus - How could it be improved?

[b1soul]

So Imperium Secundus gets quite a bit of flak (IMO justifiably so) for being a bit...messy and pointless.

 

To summarise (and feel free to correct or supplement):

 

The Ruinstorm cuts off Ultramar

The DA (bringing Curze) arrive at Ultramar after Thramas

Vulkan teleports to Ultramar following his ordeal at Curze's hands

The BA arrive at Ultramar after Signus

Curze wreaks havoc on Macgragge

Vulkan is seemingly perma-killed

Pollux and Dantioch examine the Pharos device on Sotha

Night Lords attack Sotha

The Lion hunts and captures Curze

The three loyalist Primarchs enter the Ruinstorm

 

That's the bare bones of it. With 20/20 hindsight, if you had creative editorial control over the Imperium Secundus arc, how would you have modified the plot points summarised above to produce a better arc? Or do you think the choice of plot points were fine...only the execution was lacking?

[DarkChaplain]

Frankly, a tighter release schedule would have helped immensely already. The arc arrived just when the focus within GW shifted and there was a long break of no releases in between there, dragging it out more in timeframe than in pagecount. Heck, the original glimpse of the arc happened in Age of Darkness, over 10 books before it actually officially started.

 

Apart from that, The Unremembered Empire needed to suffer less from superhero syndrome and hulk smashing and actually deal with the establishing of Imperium Secundus, rather than squeezing the cover scene into the last few pages.

The lack of Blood Angels action is also more down to the way Signus was rushed through in Fear to Tread, basically ending their arc within a single, mediocre novel and putting them into a relatively passive spot within the IS arc - which made a degree of sense within that arc, but wasn't the greatest idea for the series as a whole, since they really didn't get to shine as a Legion yet.

[Scribe]

By not writing it.

 

The Vulkan arc should never have happened.

The Sotha arc should never have happened.

Abnett made a joke out of Nighthaunter.

The BA arc was damaged.

The DA never had a chance, their best piece is a Short.

 

Honestly, it should have focused on isolation, on Rob fighting to defend his world's from the Storm, and the WE and WB.

 

It's a detriment to the Series. I wonder if I can lay it Abnetts feet.

[nagashnee]

As others have said, not write it. It added little, damaged allot. The bloat cost readers too. As a BA fan and player it really damaged the HH series in my eyes and was a factor that took me from buy to borrow.

[Xisor]

Much of it, in principle, I don't mind.

 

What was a mistake, in my mind, was the wrong characters.

 

I don't think Curze is a good choice for the end of Empire.

 

I don't think Vulkan was a good choice as the authors carried him.

 

Rather, I think it should have been Mortarion and Typhon reaving Ultramar.

 

I think the 'unforgivable Heresy' shouldn't have been a second Empire, but at some stage the forces of IS trying to *make peace* with Mortarion's forces.

 

Mortarion in Flight of the Eisenstein, and even up as far as 'Daemonology', isn't irredeemable (in an Imperial sense - he's no worse than pre-Heresy other Primarchs).

 

That offers intrigue politics and intricate balancing of Legion forces and assets across the 500 Worlds.

 

Guilliman, The Lion & Sanguinius even present a possible avenue in which Mortarion (& Perturabo) could feasibly be pulled *away* from Horus, Russ and the Emperor's willy-measuring war.

 

Thay is: Imperial reform. Not an Empire uniquely slaved to serve Terra and Mars, but one that serves Humanity and Astartes for the value of of its components.

 

I think that is what Mortarion and Perturabo would have been after (perhaps a bit more military utopia, but still), much less mystical magical mumbo jumbo ruling in the place of REAL people.

 

Obviously, Mortarion's efforts are hobbled by Typhon et al, and Perturabo might not be so cut off from Horus as much as resenting Lorgar and what changes in Angron and Fulgrim - wrestling daemons so to speak.

 

It would have allowed it to be more political, and to show the various structural and factional differences within the Legions in larger, more dynamic, yet paradoxically also more constrained and smaller scale manner. A battle for the essence of the Imperium.

 

It would then properly fall apart when exposed to the worse elements of the Galaxy - a post-Thramas encroachment of Night Lord warbands, the Ruinstorm style of stories.

 

I don't think Vulkan's presence in UE or Deathfire were handled well either.

 

Nobody seemed too bothered that a Legion's forces (small in number, but a Legion famed for small-numbers punching-up assymetric warfare!) deserted into oblivion to do a funeral.

 

I think the Salamanders' state could be better explored as per Guy Haley's short stories: looking at how wounded they are. How devastated they are.

 

How many Primarchs and other legions want to see depressing, mopey colleagues hanging about - battered and broken?

 

There's very deep, very compelling stories in there - and their worth doesn't in its entirety consist of hulk-smashing and fiery body-snatching.

 

---

 

I've always fancied my hand at spinning some fanfiction around this topic.

 

My writing is terrible though, so I should be careful about the horrors I unleash and the things I love that I might destroy...

 

 

[Kelborn]

I'd still give it a chance, though.

IMHO (and don't be upset of my personal opinion) the idea behind it was a nice addition to the setting.

 

I'm trying to break it down to certain events, characters and Legions which I'd change or keep:

 

- Vulkan: him arriving on Macragge was unnecessary, especially in turning him into a Hulk 2.0; I'd rather see him spawning on a beleagured world, where he has to take the command in order to defend against the traitors. Heck, even a Vulkan goes Shattered Legion on his own would have been more interesting than: Hulk -> getting killed -> getting revived stuff

 

- Pharus: I like the concept of the Pharus and its sibling devices. Though I'd have skipped the Tyranid cameo at the end of the novel. But still, having a device which basically is an Astronomican 2.0 is cool and reasonable when considering that we got several high tech Xenos races long before mankind even showed up.

 

- Blood Angels: Can't say much to them as they haven't had that much of spotlight. Only a handfull of characters if any at all. Sangi vs. Curze written by Haley was well done. On the other hand, if I look on the Khan's Primarch novel (in which the BA do show up, as well), the BA are overall way better handled than in the entire IS arc, which is just a missed opportunity to say at least.

 

- Dark Angels: Well....maybe I'm one of a minority but I liked Angels of Caliban. Won't say that much to the DAs. Much could have been done better but I'm not that familiar with their stuff to be in a position to judge upon it.

 

- Night Lords: Curze is overused, yes. No question about it. Still, he's one of very few to be available to pick from. Let us not talk about Haley's Night Lords. Besides the twins, it was a bloody shame what he'd done to them in Pharus.

 

What I'd like to see:

 

- More Word Bearers and World Eaters - I mean the entire Shadow Crusade, two entire Legions, assaulted Ultramar and it was only handled in what 2 novels + shorts and Calth books? All of the sudden, they vanished and where only covered in Kyme's Red Marked story arc? More WB vs. Ultras! The WB hated them. I would have loved to see some Diabolist + demonic actions, some chaos cults infiltrating Ultramar, something like a war of beliefs or such

 

- More isolation-desperation or rather more being the last - By that I mean, it was mentioned that they feel left alone but for me, it wasn't enough. More state building, more threats to the IS in generall. The only real threat was Curze. One Primarch against an entire realm. Just the Night Lords and World Eaters did show up but weren't not that reckognisable at all. Heck, I even would have wanted a meeting between the three Primarchs and mortal high ranking members discussing the current situation: Calth still being contested, raiding parties at the realms fringe, Forgeworld capacities overstrained, etc.

 

*edit after reading Xisor's post*

 

I agree with you, Xisor! Even another traitor Legion arriving at Ultramar would have been a more serious threat than anything we were presented in over four novels! Mortarion would have been a wonderful choice as it would lay ground to his ambition of attacking Ultramar in the Dark Imperium setting. On the other hand, we would miss him in the White Scars arc so I'm a bit torn upon that.

 

If we consider the Traitor Primarchs only the following would have been available:

 

- Horus: overall in charge

- Fulgrim: don't ask me what he's been doing, none of us would want to know o.O

- Mortarion: chasing after the Khan after trying to convince him

- Perturabo: establishing his role of the Warmasters quartermaster i.e. conquering worlds, etc.

- Angron: Kill! Maim! Burn!

- Lorgar: Watching Angron, eating popcorn

- Magnus: Sitting in the Warp, musing.

- Curze: Playing cat & mouse with the Lion

- Alpharius / Omegon: Who knows? Alaxxes? Already sleeping on Terra?

 

There weren't that much to pick from, I fear.

 

Long speech short:

It could have been way more better handled. A true shame that its first novel turned into a comic version of 40k (Vulkan Hulk, Curze being mustache twisting, etc.). Compared with Know No Fear one might think that it was written by a completely differen author. Yes, I know that it was a hard time for Dan from what I've heard and I don't want to blame him alone. Tbh I don't want to blame anyone at all. I'm just saying that (for me alone) its idea was a very nice adition to the overall setting, filling a whole in some Legions timelines but in generall, it could have done better.

[Xisor]

Heck, hanging the entire 'thread' off of Tashara Euten would have been a novel thing.

 

Her executive control of the Five Hundred Worlds with Guilliman still trapped on Calth, have Sanguinius and the Lion wrangle and negotionate with her.

 

And interrim point could see Guilliman leave Calth but still be amidst Lorgar and Angron, and only *later* return into farther-from-the-Ruinstorm Five Hundred Worlds, to find Euten, Sanguinius and the Lion hard at work. (Up to no end of mischief.)

 

It would even allow for Euten to be the executive pioneer behind the Sotha/Pharos stuff.

 

Basically, I think the setting as a whole would benefit if it had been... messier.

 

Then again, that's precisely contrary to what Abnett's brief was for the Unremembered Empire - it wasn't a sequel to Graham's "Imperium 2.0" vision, but an effort to tie up a lot of loose ends and unify things and allow a plateau on which people could work.

 

Unfortunately, except for Pharos and Angels of Caliban, nobody actually did much with that (e.g. Deathfire - I doubt Kyme's intent was "I know what a good Imperium Secundus strory could be: running away from it ASAP!" - it only really needed Numeon to find Vulkan's body, which could have been anywhere).

 

(I love this thread.)

[Marshal Rohr]

Make the establishment and governance of it the focus of the novels, instead of the backdrop to super-hero and legion fights. The arc could’ve been a cool ‘last bastion of civilization’ style novel which was the intent, I assume. It just didn’t feel like it with Metropol.... Civitas Macragge being the backdrop to huge fights.

[caladancid]

As with many of my complaints lately with BL writing, my opinion is they need a savage editor who could have cut down the number of books by half.

 

For instance, I thought that most of Old Earth was decent and it needed a buildup to make sense but all of the other Salamanders novels could and maybe should have been combined into one.

 

I think that the editing of the novels also let mediocre work come out, and that may be the core of the problem.  I doubt there would be as many people hating on the arc if the books had all managed to be awesome.  I did not see Betrayer on the list of Imperium Secundus books in the OP but I've always thought of it that way, and although I dislike that novel strongly (I know its heresy to say that) most others think its great and so it doesn't get the dislike that say Damnation of Pythos gets (and should get).

 

I agree that I would have liked to see more of how the Empire actually functioned, but I do think the overall ideas were good in theory and poor in execution.

[DarkChaplain]

Frankly, I think Old Earth especially is a book that needed to be two.

 

I've only just been reading it the past week or two and damn me if it isn't a monument to wasted potential within the Heresy series. It's no secret that "The Iron Tenth" got rolled into this one, but the book as a whole doesn't synergize well. Vulkan's own journey feels like an afterthought for much of the book, and he and his three sons are barely developed until the very end. And then there's the Eldrad plotline, too, which suffers from feeling incredibly abridged, like the editors told Kyme to cut chapters in half and leave the rest untold in-between them.

 

Imperium Secundus, to reiterate, consisted of

The Unremembered Empire, Deathfire, Pharos and Angels of Caliban - where Deathfire only dealt with it in the opening chapters, and Pharos was only minimally set on Macragge to begin with, instead dealing with the Pharos and the Night Lords post-Thramas. Heck, Angels of Caliban was 50% Caliban.

 

The entire Imperium Secundus arc isn't overly long, especially considering what time it spans in the overall Heresy War. It was extremely easy to inflate its problems as a fandom, however, due to the sudden stop in books being released, and the unsteady release schedule basically making it take 10 numbered books from start to finish. It spanned years in a publishing context due to corporate upheavals at the time, which generally soured the fanbase on a lot of releases back then, as corporate policy not only drove away a bunch of authors, but it also heavily influenced actual releases, resulting in more limited edition nonsense and tie-ins like Betrayal at Calth.

 

The elements of IS being a fantastic addition are all there, basically. It's a shame the authors didn't focus on those enough, with Abnett being the most obvious problem in the entire arc. He introduced a lot of great concepts in Imperium Secundus, just to shove them all aside for superhero action and a convoluted mess of Cabal and Perpetual drivel (again...). He basically forgot what the book was supposed to be about up until the last moments. It started strong, then devolved into one of the worst (and also one of the shortest!) novels in the entire series. Yes, I'd rather read The Damnation of Pythos (which I highly enjoyed for its theme) or Battle for the Abyss again.

 

If anything, I'd say that Imperium Secundus needed at least one additional novel focused on the politics, seeing Sanguinius in action as new emperor, his Herald doing stuff, Guilliman working administration and the Lion defending the realm against World Eaters and Word Bearers, which would have offered the Blood Angels a chance to fight as well and face their dual nature post-Signus, as Angron's ascension had a big impact on his entire Legion. It'd have offered a big opportunity to develop Amit further too, showing him what he might eventually become.

It needed Guilliman and Sanguinius planning contingencies, shoring up defences against the inevitable traitor assault, preparing further proto-Codex changes to the Ultramarines and involving Thiel in more than the odd audio drama (where the Red-Marked audio drama didn't even release until after the ending was already spoiled via a short story).

[caladancid]

Frankly, I think Old Earth especially is a book that needed to be two.

 

I've only just been reading it the past week or two and damn me if it isn't a monument to wasted potential within the Heresy series. It's no secret that "The Iron Tenth" got rolled into this one, but the book as a whole doesn't synergize well. Vulkan's own journey feels like an afterthought for much of the book, and he and his three sons are barely developed until the very end. And then there's the Eldrad plotline, too, which suffers from feeling incredibly abridged, like the editors told Kyme to cut chapters in half and leave the rest untold in-between them.

 

Imperium Secundus, to reiterate, consisted of

The Unremembered Empire, Deathfire, Pharos and Angels of Caliban - where Deathfire only dealt with it in the opening chapters, and Pharos was only minimally set on Macragge to begin with, instead dealing with the Pharos and the Night Lords post-Thramas. Heck, Angels of Caliban was 50% Caliban.

 

The entire Imperium Secundus arc isn't overly long, especially considering what time it spans in the overall Heresy War. It was extremely easy to inflate its problems as a fandom, however, due to the sudden stop in books being released, and the unsteady release schedule basically making it take 10 numbered books from start to finish. It spanned years in a publishing context due to corporate upheavals at the time, which generally soured the fanbase on a lot of releases back then, as corporate policy not only drove away a bunch of authors, but it also heavily influenced actual releases, resulting in more limited edition nonsense and tie-ins like Betrayal at Calth.

 

The elements of IS being a fantastic addition are all there, basically. It's a shame the authors didn't focus on those enough, with Abnett being the most obvious problem in the entire arc. He introduced a lot of great concepts in Imperium Secundus, just to shove them all aside for superhero action and a convoluted mess of Cabal and Perpetual drivel (again...). He basically forgot what the book was supposed to be about up until the last moments. It started strong, then devolved into one of the worst (and also one of the shortest!) novels in the entire series. Yes, I'd rather read The Damnation of Pythos (which I highly enjoyed for its theme) or Battle for the Abyss again.

 

If anything, I'd say that Imperium Secundus needed at least one additional novel focused on the politics, seeing Sanguinius in action as new emperor, his Herald doing stuff, Guilliman working administration and the Lion defending the realm against World Eaters and Word Bearers, which would have offered the Blood Angels a chance to fight as well and face their dual nature post-Signus, as Angron's ascension had a big impact on his entire Legion. It'd have offered a big opportunity to develop Amit further too, showing him what he might eventually become.

It needed Guilliman and Sanguinius planning contingencies, shoring up defences against the inevitable traitor assault, preparing further proto-Codex changes to the Ultramarines and involving Thiel in more than the odd audio drama (where the Red-Marked audio drama didn't even release until after the ending was already spoiled via a short story).

 

See I would rather have had fewer IS novels, and more standalones focusing on areas like the FW Black Books introduced.  It would have been better imo to see the impact across the Imperium vs focused so tightly on one part of it.

 

Also did you dislike Know No Fear? I think that is one of the best books in the entire series. I can't think of why the Betrayal at Calth was bad from any angle, novel or miniatures.

[Indefragable]

- Blood Angels: Can't say much to them as they haven't had that much of spotlight. Only a handfull of characters if any at all. Sangi vs. Curze written by Haley was well done. On the other hand, if I look on the Khan's Primarch novel (in which the BA do show up, as well), the BA are overall way better handled than in the entire IS arc, which is just a missed opportunity to say at least.

 

- Dark Angels: Well....maybe I'm one of a minority but I liked Angels of Caliban. Won't say that much to the DAs. Much could have been done better but I'm not that familiar with their stuff to be in a position to judge upon it.

 

- Night Lords: Curze is overused, yes. No question about it. Still, he's one of very few to be available to pick from. Let us not talk about Haley's Night Lords. Besides the twins, it was a bloody shame what he'd done to them in Pharus.

 

What I'd like to see:

 

- More Word Bearers and World Eaters - I mean the entire Shadow Crusade, two entire Legions, assaulted Ultramar and it was only handled in what 2 novels + shorts and Calth books? All of the sudden, they vanished and where only covered in Kyme's Red Marked story arc? More WB vs. Ultras! The WB hated them. I would have loved to see some Diabolist + demonic actions, some chaos cults infiltrating Ultramar, something like a war of beliefs or such

 

- More isolation-desperation or rather more being the last - By that I mean, it was mentioned that they feel left alone but for me, it wasn't enough. More state building, more threats to the IS in generall. The only real threat was Curze. One Primarch against an entire realm. Just the Night Lords and World Eaters did show up but weren't not that reckognisable at all. Heck, I even would have wanted a meeting between the three Primarchs and mortal high ranking members discussing the current situation: Calth still being contested, raiding parties at the realms fringe, Forgeworld capacities overstrained, etc.

 

Amen to all of the above.

 

****

 

If we have to do Imperium Secundus...as in "but boss, it's a bad idea..." "do it or you lose your job!" sort of thing....

 

...then simple:

 

It's all part of Horus' masterstroke.

 

He knew RG would castle up and so the whole thing was designed to get him to just do that.

 

The big reveal is that what RG thought was a smart idea: re-fit, re-fuel, re-arm, played directly into Horus' hands. Likewise, the Lion comes to terms with the idea that his hunter's tracking instincts (pursuing Curze to the ends of the galaxy) were used against him. And Sanguinius recognizes that one of his greatest attributes (trusting his brothers, charisma, loyalty) was wounded almost beyond repair at Signus, to the point he is wary of both RG and LJ.  It is this realization that galvanizes all three of them into the righteous-anger-fueled "damn the torpedoes: full speed ahead!" drive towards Terra.

 

In short, Imperium Secundus is a trap. The breakout from that trap, along with the Khan's decision to go to Terra instead of continuing to harass, are the Guadalcanal moments of the HH where suddenly the Loyalists go from definitely losing the war to "maybe there's a snowball's chance at winning this thing."

 

If the writers had put it in such strategic terms, and cut out 75% of the pointless subplots, then it wouldn't be half bad (IMHO).

 

 

EDIT: also, for clarification, I'm not saying the idea of "Emperor Sanguinius" was part of Horus's plan, but rather he had a spectrum of anticipated results in mind, from "best case" of UM wiped out by WB + WE to "at worst" UM being delayed long enough to let Horus get x % into his main thrust. Guilliman staying back to re-inforce a pocket empire fits squarely in the middle of that spectrum, with "Imperium Secundus" being a heretical outcome beyond even Horus' wildest dream (which makes it all the more fittingly tragic to the overall narrative and the wrath of the 3 Primarchs involved that much hotter)

[Tymell]

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I was stoked when we first heard about the story and concept of Imperium Secundus.

 

I enjoy perfectly well seeing events play out even when we know (at least generally) how they end up, and I've never subscribed to the view that "There's no tension if you know how it ends". To me, the journey is the fun. But that said, I also really enjoy when they add something genuinely new to the story. After all, part of the purpose of this series is to flesh out the bare-bones narrative we had originally. Imperium Secundus was just such a thing: something new and interesting. To me, it made sense as something Guilliman would do, and it had some great story-telling potential.

 

And then we got Unremembered Empire. I'l hold back from launching into a full review, but it was a terrible start to this thread. The first half was okay, but then it just became "Curze rampages through the city: the book", with Sanguinius turning up right at the end like some kind of angelic Nick Fury in a post-credits scene. It -should- have been the book to set up the entire arc, but that was a big dropped ball.

 

I like Indefragable's idea about making it part of Horus' plan. It makes it seem more of a solid part of the overall narrative, and gives more of a reason for Guilliman's shame in the aftermath.

 

As we've covered before, I also think it wasn't actually as bloated as it can seem; I think that impression comes from its timing more than anything, since it ran during that dark time when HH output became focused on e-shorts and limited edition novellas. There's not actually -that- much material focusing on Imperium Secundus, it just came at a bad time.

 

For me, the problems mostly stem from the set up. Focus Unremembered Empire more on the actual reasons for and workings of this new Imperium, the whys and hows of it all. Give Sanguinius and the Blood Angels more of a real, tangible role to play, maybe even an opportunity to strike back and exert some good old angelic wrath. And with a better set up, you in turn get a better pay-off when it all breaks down.

[Roomsky]

I'm a big fan of Imperium Secundus, warts and all. I think it's a great premise, and suffered more from execution than anything. We had more Primarch fisticuffs than the entire arc needed in just UE, and it only got more over the top from there. 

 

I thought the choices for the triumvirate were fine, and Curze was a perfectly usable baddy, though as DC pointed out that page time may have been better served using the Death Guard. If I could change anything, I'd shift the focus away from primarchs as fighters, and more towards primarchs as generals and statesmen. Show us some major fleet action, this is a side of the war we didn't see much of even with the added arc, give me some Blood Angels and Dark Angels in proper military engagements. Each author scratched at the potential friction between the legions, but we never got much more than "Guilliman is rigid, the Lion is insane, Sanguinius is a mediating force." And Curze is still a great fit for antagonist here (make Typhus and the DG the baddies out in space, and a Solo Curze the antagonist back on Macragge). He's the perfect one-man threat to an entire society, have him foster rebellion and chip away at IS' already rocky foundations.

 

That said, I try to enjoy it for what it is. I still love the idea, and like the entries we got for it well enough. Appreciate what an author produced rather than imagining what you would have done, as they say.

[Xisor]

I can't think of why the Betrayal at Calth was bad from any angle, novel or miniatures.

How about the short story angle?

 

Specifically: McNeill's go-nowhere boringly effort from Mark of Calth.

 

(Otherwise, I did enjoy most of the Calth stuff. But Calth *and* IS is very Ultramar heavy. The other MoC shorts were pretty dandy.)

[Knockagh]

Like most are saying I agree the establishment and fall of a second imperium within the imperium needs more fleshing out than it got.

I think it was written at a time when no one had a clue as to how long the heresy would last and it seemed to all it would go on forever so maybe writers felt they might have time to build on the idea but it got lost when the main plot had to progress and it couldn’t without secundus falling, so it got rushed.

I think the idea behind secundus was solid it made sense in the disarray of the heresy, the lack of communication the big personalities involved that there would be power grabs and manoeuvring going on. Unfortunately most of the books focused on the fighting, and that got rather tedious.

Personally I think this was a general heresy failing. We have seen very little focus on the politics. The Beast war was so refreshing as it took a look behind the battle lines into the inner workings of the government, the Heresy has such a narrow focus on the marines it failed to do that. I think the heresy could have kept its freshness if it had diversified away from the marine on marine action and looked at politics across the imperium, more emphasis on the human responses etc.

Secundus is just a symptom of this general failing. It could have been so much more but the narrow focus on marine on marine warfare made it feel bland after so many similar books.

[caladancid]

 

I can't think of why the Betrayal at Calth was bad from any angle, novel or miniatures.

How about the short story angle?

 

Specifically: McNeill's go-nowhere boringly effort from Mark of Calth.

 

(Otherwise, I did enjoy most of the Calth stuff. But Calth *and* IS is very Ultramar heavy. The other MoC shorts were pretty dandy.)

 

 

Oh yeah, I was not thinking of the short story tie-ins. Some of them were ok but yes overall weak I agree (I am thinking of the two stories tied in the with boxed set, not MoC).

[DarkChaplain]

 

-Snip-

 

See I would rather have had fewer IS novels, and more standalones focusing on areas like the FW Black Books introduced.  It would have been better imo to see the impact across the Imperium vs focused so tightly on one part of it.

 

Also did you dislike Know No Fear? I think that is one of the best books in the entire series. I can't think of why the Betrayal at Calth was bad from any angle, novel or miniatures.

 

 

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. I'd like to see more novella to novel length stories about the late FW events - but they decided pretty soon that BL wasn't fully adapting FW, and FW's Black Books actually introduced new problems to the Black Library series as a whole. Heck, we got audio dramas and short stories about the Blackshields, and Autek Mor is hyped up a bit in Old Earth, but as a BL-only reader, none of it is really rooted properly due to being FW additions, close to 10 years into the entire series. FW rewrote a bunch of stuff and authors then had to basically retcon it into the Legions around book 30, when it was never part of the series before, and it got jarring.

 

Overall the benefits of FW outweigh the negatives, of course, but it has muddied the waters heavily, to the point where we can probably thank the delays of the Adeptus Titanicus game and FW's notoriously slow schedule that we are getting Titan Death on Saturday, for the typical novel price, rather than having to shell out what, 60 bucks or more for a black book in a few months?

 

I'd like to see FW-blanks filled in later on, like with the recent novellas or the audios. But I actually think most of it would have dragged the numbered series more down than uplifted it in terms of pacing, especially when people have been decrying plot additions for years and the series never reaching the Siege has been a meme touted by sites like BoLS and their commenters for the past half a decade.

 

As for Calth, Betrayal at Calth specifically is a duology tie-in to the boxed game, consisting of The Honoured by Rob Sanders and The Unburdened by David Annandale. The latter was pretty good, the former was a terrible read due to its stilted nature. It had short moments of genius and did help straighten out the Calth timeline, but that's about it. It did not live up to the general level of quality of the series, and neither book has been collected in a numbered book since. Heck, they had a damn expensive collector's edition of the duology at the time, which I believe was about as expensive as what we now got for Spears of the Emperor..

 

That Betrayal at Calth duology basically epitomized the cynical business of GW at the time. Short novels, priced about the same as full ones. Never reaching MMPB, which the series wanted to maintain for all print releases. Ludicrous limited edition. Strictly a tie-in set to the game. Jumping back to a subject matter that has been done and dusted by Mark of Calth, two and a half years earlier, set in the timeline right after/during the end of Know No Fear, which released a further year ahead of Mark of Calth.

 

It dialed the clock back at a time when the only other novel that entire year was Deathfire, 4 months earlier, preceded by Legacies of Betrayal which was over a year before The Honoured and The Unburdened hit shelves. It was an entire year between The Damnation of Pythos and the next novel, being Deathfire, and the next novel after Deathfire was a digital pre-release of Pharos for Christmas 2015, the following month, which did not officially release even in hardback until February 2016.

 

The entire series came to a standstill between 2014 and 2015, and THAT was what they came back with. And Imperium Secundus spanned that entire drought in BL's schedule, a time when people were majorly pissed off already. It was maybe the biggest "betrayal" to the expectant fans that even the Horus Heresy was turned into glorified marketing tool for a studio release, the same year they were told Tallarn: Ironclad, which was hyped up a lot, wasn't even going to be a full-length novel, but received an expensive limited edition. The same year the Adeptus Mechanicus releases were accompanied by short stories specifically commissioned to hype new kits, and authors were told their ideas were too ambitious or divergent from what GW proper wanted.

 

For reference, The Unremembered Empire officially released in October 2013, just before the shift in corporate structure. Most other novels after it, before the drought, were already commissioned and on their way (which even the afterwords should attest to, dating-wise). That was book 27. The next book actually featuring Imperium Secundus was Deathfire, which used it as a jumping off point only. Book 32, released July 2015. It took BL almost two years to return to that plotline!

[RedFurioso]

Abnett made a joke out of Nighthaunter.

He didn't. In fact, Abnett is the only writer who showed murderous potential of Curze. Unremembered Empire' Curze not crying and moaning about future, he is a threat to whole population of Macragge.

[b1soul]

ADB made Curze sufficiently murderous before Abnett gave us the superhero battles in UE

[Orwell84]

Lots of great ideas, especially Xisor's musings about using Mortarion and Perturabo and why treating with them would be both logical and heretical.

 

Like some, I thought the concept of IS was perfectly fine, and weaving Vulkan's story arc into it wasn't necessarily a bad idea in itself. But in hindsight the execution's been somewhat lacking, albeit the screwed-up release schedule didn't help.

 

One change I'd make, to add to Xisor's and others - replace Curze with Alpharius or Omegon, with a campaign less about terror and more about subversion. Keep the reader guessing about whether the Hydra is sabotaging IS out of loyalty to Horus or because he is truly loyal to the Big E and views Guilliman as a traitor. An optional extra would be revealing that, rather than RG as stated in the Index Astartes article, it was actually Rogal Dorn who despised Alpharius the most pre-Heresy (character-wise this actually makes more sense, IMHO) and RG actually defended Alpharius for his innovative methods - only for Alpharius to humiliate him during the IS story arc. That gives Guilliman a personal motive to hunt him down on Eskrador later.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think the Pharos could’ve been handled better. Ideally it would’ve been a powerful Xenos artifact that could’ve acted like an Astronomicon on the eastern fringe. Just one of the the many project the Emperor has Guilliman undertake. Less a spotlight to shine at world so people could see them or a weird teleportation device, and just its own eastern fringe lighthouse. That really could’ve driven home the lost golden age vibe.

[Tymell]

A battle for the essence of the Imperium.

 

I like a lot of Xisor's post here, but this bit in particular strikes me as something I would've loved to have seen. Make Imperium Secundus raise questions of what the Imperium is and what it stands for. Toy with the idea of breaking down the conventional traitor-loyalist divide by having the sides treat with one another, maybe even trying to turn one another. I'd love to see Mortation/Perturabo and Guilliman/Lion/Sanguinius battling with words as much as with their armies.

 

I think that, in turn, could provide a good way to slot Vulkan into it, given his uniquely empathetic personality among the Primarchs.

[Xisor]

There's a somewhat natural affinity (though hardly exact lineup!) between the philosophies of Vulkan, Perturabo and Mortarion too: an element of anti-colonialism, in general, as well as looking at humanity itself as The Thing of Value, albeit with different takes on why and how.

 

It somewhat dovetails with Alpharius (I concur with Orwell on that front!) and Guilliman's contrasting views too, and further emphasises the fundamental differences they embody too.

 

There's a lot to explore in those, especially when constrained by necessity, actual daemons, lack of input from Terra and Terran institutions (even waypoints like Kar Duniash or its equivalent of the day - though didn't the Furious Abyss stop off at Hydraphur, and isn't that on the wrong side of Terra from Ultramar?!), and of course the machinations of Mechanicum enclaves.

 

As Dark Chaplain expanded - Unremembered Empire has a dodgy place in GW's corporate time line. I'd suspect that it isn't so neatly 'before' either - the peculiar characteristics of UE as compared to Dan's other works could possibly be because of GW's changing tune. E.g. That was the first indication of the big meddling being felt, and Dan literally and literarily hurried it along to be done with their foolishness.

 

I could sympathise with that, though I've not reread it and so my knowledge of surrounding events might be... Colouring it. (Precisely as DC said, but without his commensurate respect for the actual order of events and the logical integrity of cause and effect...)

[Marshal Rohr]

The anti-colonial themes some of the Primarchs display aren't carried over into their actions though. That makes me feel like its more a narrative device than a true facet of their character. Perturabo and Mortarion are both fine with enlightened despotism when they are the enlightened one. Vulkan is the one I could see as being the most anti-colonial, but even he still supports the Emperor as mankinds best hope. Personally, anti-colonial themes don't work as well in 40k as they would in other sci-fi literature because the transhumanism of the Imperial society makes our definition of egalitarianism impossible (and arguably not moral).